We're going to be fighting this fight for years to come. This just hands a win to antivax and antimaskers who are a pipeline directly into fascism. It's very tempting to believe you're doing good because you think you're saving lives in the near-term but that's not the case if your decision making is shortsighted.
If you hand easy wins to these movements you're just going to make it harder and harder to get compliance out of people in the covid variant we'll be dealing with 4 years from now. It is essential to build voluntary compliance and the collective desire of the population to do it because it's the right thing to do.
This will look very different from the American perspective I suspect because you've got much bigger problems with collective voluntary vaccination than we do as a more heavily atomised society with far less population density.
Everyone is focused on the here and now with some misplaced belief that covid can be defeated, it can't, it is not going to be defeated under capitalism. We have to factor it into analysis and have a further-reaching analysis of action against it, we need the whole of society to collectively agree to living in combat with it and handing wins to reactionaries will make that harder.
Yes and every single time you mandate it you send more people into the movement, participating in the online misinformation, into Q circles, and into street protests.
They're not too hard to deal with right now. But they are growing at a rate that is fast enough to be a real concern. It is far easier to beat these people with social pressures of friends, family and the collective pressure of society than it is via authoritarian pressure.
The authoritarian methods should be used only when they can in fact achieve a guaranteed win. In this case we're just sending more people into the "muh freedom muh liberties" fascist movement that is growing in the UK. It plays right into the hands of a social vs fascist cultural split in society.
There are very few vaccinated antivaxers. The best way to cut down their recruitment pool is to push people to get vaccinated now before they can be indoctrinated with antivax insanity. Anecdotally, a nurse I know says many of her colleagues aren't vaccinated, but will get it because of the mandate. It's not radicalising them, it's having the intended effect.
After the 5th, 6th, 7th jab this will get less and less effective. People will get more resistant as the laziness kicks in, it is social pressure that prevents this. Not to mention that the soft-antivaxxers that decide to lose their jobs over this will radicalise into the far right extremely easily after their lives fall apart. I can predict the "I used to be a nurse" propaganda already and it'll be really effective having ex-nurses and other ex-NHS doing far right agitation.
the term antivaxer is widely misused. i got the moderna vax, my kids got all their shots as babies, but i am strongly against compulsory covid vaccination. i am also not going to get a booster every 3-6 months. this is not how the vax was sold to the public at the beginning. it has proven to be far less effective than we were told and will require endless boosters.
natural immunity is by all accounts much more robust and life long.
People who have had covid have gotten it again. There's nothing pointing to natural immunity being better, I've only seen things showing the opposite. I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff but don't make things up.
if you are high risk you can take the vaccine. if you just want to be careful you can take the vaccine. if you are in good health, with no pre existing conditions it should not be compulsory because the jab will not stop transmission.
The reason western countries are making vaccines mandatory is because hospital systems will get overwhelmed without doing anything else and they don't want to do anything else like contact trace or payout and force people to stay home. Is your suggestion to only force the >40% of America who is obese to get the vaccine?
Something "authoritarian" has to be done at some point, whether that's actually sending people to your house to make you stay home if you were in contact with a positive case, or a coerced vaccine.
Most people who are unvaccinated think they're way healthier than they are, and when they go into hospital and prevent all the other surgeries by using up resources while on a vent.
this is not how the vax was sold to the public at the beginning.
In America you are right, public health constantly failed in its messaging and wanted to coerce people into getting it by promising things will go back to normal if enough get it. This did not happen.
In the parts of the world not in denial they were told masks would still be happening even with vaccines. They weren't sold anything because not everywhere is like America where contrarians whwould say "what's the point of getting it if no measures change". They also weren't told about 2 doses being enough in perpetuity because they were told "idk, just get it, it's clearly good".
The lower chance of infection is a very huge deal, and the lower risk of spread is very big. It's not perfect but it's enough to not clog up hospitals in places with a high enough vaccinated rate. The lower spread with vaccines is also going to slow down the spread and thus how quick things can mutate.
You're talking about the vaccine like we aren't in a public health crisis affecting everyone.
yes we are in a public health crisis. but it's not being handled like a public health crisis. it's being handled like a corporate takeover.
we are almost two years into this and in a sane world we could have fixed and expanded our (i'm in the US) utterly hollowed out healthcare system, put in place early at-home care procedures, etc. but we haven't. i just don't believe that the state, pharma, tech, etc cares about saving lives or public health in general. especially when all their answers to the pandemic (lockdowns, partial business closure, vaccine mandates) have lined the pockets of the ruling class while causing irreparable harm to the average person. now on top of this you think authoritarian measures are necessary? and you expect people to just go along and trust the people in power? when all the early promises of the vaccine have proved way off the mark? the left is so fucked if this is the line going forward. jezza (and his very cool brother btw) are on the right track.
Where did you get that info about the effectiveness of natural immunity being better than vaccines? You're letting the political machinery get in the way of legitimately evaluating the effectiveness of vaccines.
Big pharma, the state, tech, care about saving lives to the point of keeping cogs turning in the machine.
I think the domestic handling of covid were fuckups trying to do as little as possible to keep status quo for big business. Also politicians not wanting to do things that were unpopular and only acting once forced to with all those lockdown measures that were emergency measures that we seem to be in a stop-start cycle of. Thus dangling the unrealistic carrot of reopening fully if enough are vaccinated. This I blame on incompetence of trying to do nothing and then having to do something, and lack of preventative "authoritarian" measures.
But internationally I think the fuckup was pure greed because of IP laws that I blame on big pharma. Omicron came about because Africa isn't getting enough vaccines. Once Cuba can distribute theirs then I think that would help a lot, look at Cuba's numbers for demonstration of that.
Realistically I think China's method is the only domestic one that works. We cannot expand healthcare enough to deal with the virus and its effects. The field of nursing is losing people because of ptsd and stress. Partially because of the understaffing, but also dealing with a constant stream of preventable deaths and fighting antivaxxers.
I don't think we can train and expand quick enough to do be able nothing else. Seeing hundreds die is weighing on nurses, and even with enough resources to give all those dying a fighting chance that still scars people and makes it a field where we'd have to figure out how much to pay people to get PTSD. Even if we put all manufacturing power into making ventilators and start paying bonuses to people who do nursing school and give better nurse wages I don't think that's enough of we do nothing else.
Edit: sucks you got banned before responding to me. I had a feeling you were more denialist than you let on but didn't know for sure. Oh well
This doesn't justify anti vaxx bullshitt you're pushing. Contract tracing and using proper n95 masks is important but one shouldn't undermine the importance of vaccines.
it says that there is a 13% decrease in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated. this means that 100% of people could be vaxxed and covid would still spread widely. we are going to be living with this for the foreseeable future. there is no zero covid via vaccines. my belief is that the left should be pushing for broad reforms to the healthcare system and not solely focused on the vaccine. if people want to get it, great. a lot of people are untrusting of the govt and pharma, and for good reason. we should be talking to these people and offering solutions instead of calling them all chud reactionaries, which just isn't true.
I wouldn't agree with the previous comment that we weren't told about booster shots early on. It was always brought up as a possibility, just as there are booster shots for every vaccine in existence today.
We were told it was ultra-effective at preventing covid. That was true for the dominant variants of the time, and it's still true if you get a booster. They couldn't predict the future.
Fwiw I'm not accusing you of being an anti-vaxer. I am accusing the previous commenter of being one.
Yes and every single time you mandate it you send more people into the movement, participating in the online misinformation, into Q circles, and into street protests.
Honest question: is there any evidence for this? I know anecdotes aren't data, but most anti-vaxers I know who were forced to do it just got mad online for a day and then got the shot.
i know its painful to admit but the vaccines just don't work very well. they were rushed out by project warp speed, a combo pentagon/big pharma operation. they slightly reduce the severity of a case but do not stop transmission. their effectivness falls off drastically after a few months. natural immunity is by all accounts much more robust and life long. if you are high risk you can take the vaccine. if you just want to be careful you can take the vaccine. if you are in good health, with no pre existing conditions it should not be compulsory because the jab will not stop transmission.
well excuse me for wanting to debate with some good chapo leftists. i come in good faith. i may have different opinions, but i'm talking openly and honestly here.
Little tip for next time, absolutely no one still on this site calls themselves a "chapo" or a "chapo leftist". Lurk more before showing your entire ass again.
Vaccines are not 100% effective, but you’re overstating the strength of natural immunity. We have no way of knowing that it’s “life long”, only that it seems to be longer lasting than vaccine immunity. Vaccines don’t completely stop transmission, and neither does previous infection. Unvaccinated people that have recovered are still contributing to spreading the virus, and they could reduce that by getting the vaccine.
Just survivorship bias showing its ass once again.
All the folks who are crippled or killed by the virus just kinda drop out of the denominator for anti-vaxxers. COVID is soft-eugenics for these assholes and if you don't make it then you don't count.
And its painfully cliche to say at this point, but things are only going to get worse. I don't envy anyone working the night shift at the COVID wards in a few months, least of all in a state like Texas or Florida.
We have a lot of evidence now that shows that the vaccines are effective at reducing the spread. They've been shown to reduce the risk of infection, accelerate viral clearance, reduce transmission, and have high efficacy against severe infection, hospitalization, and death. A thread on some of the weaknesses of natural immunity. Also, contrary to what many libertarians would have us believe, even most Americans do actually support vaccine mandates.
Nah. Jez is right on this one.
We're going to be fighting this fight for years to come. This just hands a win to antivax and antimaskers who are a pipeline directly into fascism. It's very tempting to believe you're doing good because you think you're saving lives in the near-term but that's not the case if your decision making is shortsighted.
If you hand easy wins to these movements you're just going to make it harder and harder to get compliance out of people in the covid variant we'll be dealing with 4 years from now. It is essential to build voluntary compliance and the collective desire of the population to do it because it's the right thing to do.
This will look very different from the American perspective I suspect because you've got much bigger problems with collective voluntary vaccination than we do as a more heavily atomised society with far less population density.
Everyone is focused on the here and now with some misplaced belief that covid can be defeated, it can't, it is not going to be defeated under capitalism. We have to factor it into analysis and have a further-reaching analysis of action against it, we need the whole of society to collectively agree to living in combat with it and handing wins to reactionaries will make that harder.
deleted by creator
Yes and every single time you mandate it you send more people into the movement, participating in the online misinformation, into Q circles, and into street protests.
They're not too hard to deal with right now. But they are growing at a rate that is fast enough to be a real concern. It is far easier to beat these people with social pressures of friends, family and the collective pressure of society than it is via authoritarian pressure.
The authoritarian methods should be used only when they can in fact achieve a guaranteed win. In this case we're just sending more people into the "muh freedom muh liberties" fascist movement that is growing in the UK. It plays right into the hands of a social vs fascist cultural split in society.
There are very few vaccinated antivaxers. The best way to cut down their recruitment pool is to push people to get vaccinated now before they can be indoctrinated with antivax insanity. Anecdotally, a nurse I know says many of her colleagues aren't vaccinated, but will get it because of the mandate. It's not radicalising them, it's having the intended effect.
After the 5th, 6th, 7th jab this will get less and less effective. People will get more resistant as the laziness kicks in, it is social pressure that prevents this. Not to mention that the soft-antivaxxers that decide to lose their jobs over this will radicalise into the far right extremely easily after their lives fall apart. I can predict the "I used to be a nurse" propaganda already and it'll be really effective having ex-nurses and other ex-NHS doing far right agitation.
the term antivaxer is widely misused. i got the moderna vax, my kids got all their shots as babies, but i am strongly against compulsory covid vaccination. i am also not going to get a booster every 3-6 months. this is not how the vax was sold to the public at the beginning. it has proven to be far less effective than we were told and will require endless boosters.
:downbear:
Joined 29 minutes ago with 2 comments, both of which contain falsehoods about the vaccine lmao
what falsehoods?
People who have had covid have gotten it again. There's nothing pointing to natural immunity being better, I've only seen things showing the opposite. I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff but don't make things up.
The reason western countries are making vaccines mandatory is because hospital systems will get overwhelmed without doing anything else and they don't want to do anything else like contact trace or payout and force people to stay home. Is your suggestion to only force the >40% of America who is obese to get the vaccine?
Something "authoritarian" has to be done at some point, whether that's actually sending people to your house to make you stay home if you were in contact with a positive case, or a coerced vaccine.
Most people who are unvaccinated think they're way healthier than they are, and when they go into hospital and prevent all the other surgeries by using up resources while on a vent.
In America you are right, public health constantly failed in its messaging and wanted to coerce people into getting it by promising things will go back to normal if enough get it. This did not happen.
In the parts of the world not in denial they were told masks would still be happening even with vaccines. They weren't sold anything because not everywhere is like America where contrarians whwould say "what's the point of getting it if no measures change". They also weren't told about 2 doses being enough in perpetuity because they were told "idk, just get it, it's clearly good".
The lower chance of infection is a very huge deal, and the lower risk of spread is very big. It's not perfect but it's enough to not clog up hospitals in places with a high enough vaccinated rate. The lower spread with vaccines is also going to slow down the spread and thus how quick things can mutate.
You're talking about the vaccine like we aren't in a public health crisis affecting everyone.
yes we are in a public health crisis. but it's not being handled like a public health crisis. it's being handled like a corporate takeover. we are almost two years into this and in a sane world we could have fixed and expanded our (i'm in the US) utterly hollowed out healthcare system, put in place early at-home care procedures, etc. but we haven't. i just don't believe that the state, pharma, tech, etc cares about saving lives or public health in general. especially when all their answers to the pandemic (lockdowns, partial business closure, vaccine mandates) have lined the pockets of the ruling class while causing irreparable harm to the average person. now on top of this you think authoritarian measures are necessary? and you expect people to just go along and trust the people in power? when all the early promises of the vaccine have proved way off the mark? the left is so fucked if this is the line going forward. jezza (and his very cool brother btw) are on the right track.
Where did you get that info about the effectiveness of natural immunity being better than vaccines? You're letting the political machinery get in the way of legitimately evaluating the effectiveness of vaccines.
Big pharma, the state, tech, care about saving lives to the point of keeping cogs turning in the machine.
I think the domestic handling of covid were fuckups trying to do as little as possible to keep status quo for big business. Also politicians not wanting to do things that were unpopular and only acting once forced to with all those lockdown measures that were emergency measures that we seem to be in a stop-start cycle of. Thus dangling the unrealistic carrot of reopening fully if enough are vaccinated. This I blame on incompetence of trying to do nothing and then having to do something, and lack of preventative "authoritarian" measures.
But internationally I think the fuckup was pure greed because of IP laws that I blame on big pharma. Omicron came about because Africa isn't getting enough vaccines. Once Cuba can distribute theirs then I think that would help a lot, look at Cuba's numbers for demonstration of that.
Realistically I think China's method is the only domestic one that works. We cannot expand healthcare enough to deal with the virus and its effects. The field of nursing is losing people because of ptsd and stress. Partially because of the understaffing, but also dealing with a constant stream of preventable deaths and fighting antivaxxers.
I don't think we can train and expand quick enough to do be able nothing else. Seeing hundreds die is weighing on nurses, and even with enough resources to give all those dying a fighting chance that still scars people and makes it a field where we'd have to figure out how much to pay people to get PTSD. Even if we put all manufacturing power into making ventilators and start paying bonuses to people who do nursing school and give better nurse wages I don't think that's enough of we do nothing else.
Edit: sucks you got banned before responding to me. I had a feeling you were more denialist than you let on but didn't know for sure. Oh well
What sources? What are you claiming to be false and what sources do you have to back up your claims?
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-study-finds-vaccinated-people-easily-transmit-delta-variant-households-2021-10-28/
This doesn't justify anti vaxx bullshitt you're pushing. Contract tracing and using proper n95 masks is important but one shouldn't undermine the importance of vaccines.
it says that there is a 13% decrease in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated. this means that 100% of people could be vaxxed and covid would still spread widely. we are going to be living with this for the foreseeable future. there is no zero covid via vaccines. my belief is that the left should be pushing for broad reforms to the healthcare system and not solely focused on the vaccine. if people want to get it, great. a lot of people are untrusting of the govt and pharma, and for good reason. we should be talking to these people and offering solutions instead of calling them all chud reactionaries, which just isn't true.
So we should vaccinate as many as possible because it also reduces mortality in addition to other methods.
Nowhere did I say all antivaxxers are reactionaries. It just happens to lead people to reactionary communities.
deleted by creator
I wouldn't agree with the previous comment that we weren't told about booster shots early on. It was always brought up as a possibility, just as there are booster shots for every vaccine in existence today.
We were told it was ultra-effective at preventing covid. That was true for the dominant variants of the time, and it's still true if you get a booster. They couldn't predict the future.
Fwiw I'm not accusing you of being an anti-vaxer. I am accusing the previous commenter of being one.
deleted by creator
Do you see any of that being applied in any european countries?
deleted by creator
Honest question: is there any evidence for this? I know anecdotes aren't data, but most anti-vaxers I know who were forced to do it just got mad online for a day and then got the shot.
Anecdotal but I've seen it from teachers that were resistant to schools closing down. They've all become considerably worse since.
i know its painful to admit but the vaccines just don't work very well. they were rushed out by project warp speed, a combo pentagon/big pharma operation. they slightly reduce the severity of a case but do not stop transmission. their effectivness falls off drastically after a few months. natural immunity is by all accounts much more robust and life long. if you are high risk you can take the vaccine. if you just want to be careful you can take the vaccine. if you are in good health, with no pre existing conditions it should not be compulsory because the jab will not stop transmission.
deleted by creator
For real though. I popped into read through this and was like
:wat:
Also I’m a day old account, not trying to pull one over on you lol
Shit like this is why you have to purge antivaxers.
well excuse me for wanting to debate with some good chapo leftists. i come in good faith. i may have different opinions, but i'm talking openly and honestly here.
Little tip for next time, absolutely no one still on this site calls themselves a "chapo" or a "chapo leftist". Lurk more before showing your entire ass again.
:shhh: they have to learn
:I-was-saying:
:sealion:
deleted by creator
We're not really interested in outside opinions and debate.
We are an echo chamber for better or worse.
Buh bye.
Vaccines are not 100% effective, but you’re overstating the strength of natural immunity. We have no way of knowing that it’s “life long”, only that it seems to be longer lasting than vaccine immunity. Vaccines don’t completely stop transmission, and neither does previous infection. Unvaccinated people that have recovered are still contributing to spreading the virus, and they could reduce that by getting the vaccine.
Just survivorship bias showing its ass once again.
All the folks who are crippled or killed by the virus just kinda drop out of the denominator for anti-vaxxers. COVID is soft-eugenics for these assholes and if you don't make it then you don't count.
And its painfully cliche to say at this point, but things are only going to get worse. I don't envy anyone working the night shift at the COVID wards in a few months, least of all in a state like Texas or Florida.
We have a lot of evidence now that shows that the vaccines are effective at reducing the spread. They've been shown to reduce the risk of infection, accelerate viral clearance, reduce transmission, and have high efficacy against severe infection, hospitalization, and death. A thread on some of the weaknesses of natural immunity. Also, contrary to what many libertarians would have us believe, even most Americans do actually support vaccine mandates.
deleted by creator
Yeah, in Spain we are at 90% vaccination rate.
What we need to do is send more to poor countries, not keeping them solely for us.