It's possible that people can actually be former leftists/socialists/communists/etc and have "left the left" so to speak. I've been noticing here that the common response to this will be "they were never really leftists/socialists/etc. anyways" or "they were never really serious to begin with." It's possible that it could be the case, or maybe they actually were on the left, but they just didn't have the stomach for the real shit I guess.
I think we shouldn't be too quick to jump to using the "no true scotsman" fallacy in these cases. For those who don't know, it's basically saying "you weren't REALLY a leftist, cuz otherwise you never would have left." The same argument is used by religious people when someone leaves the faith: "oh they were never a REAL christian, otherwise they wouldn't have become atheist/agnostic."
To give some concrete examples, take Eldridge Cleaver. He actually was a Black Panther, radical, communist, etc. but then later in life became a Reagan conservative. Or Angela Davis. She actually was a radical but now she tells people to vote for Biden.
TL;DR: People can and do change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
Clarence Thomas left the left when he decided “can’t beat ‘em, join em” after encountering the rich conservatives.
But almost every one of these “I left the left” people seem to have a weird “a trans cat girl made fun of me on Twitter.. so I totally changed my views about justice and how the world should be” It simply doesn’t make sense.
Many such cases, we’ve had at least a few people here who got called out for latent reactionary stuff by marginalized comrades and had it activate the hitler gene imbedded in their brain lol
I always assume most of those types are the “i want health care” kind who are in it for their own economic reasons not so much that they care about oppressions others face under capitalism
kind who are in it for their own economic reasons not so much that they care about oppressions others face under capitalism
Having to argue for trans rights from the closet has made me the perfect trans ally, I think, precisely because I have to come up with reasons to be deeply invested in trans issues without outing myself. So even if I suddenly start identifying as a man again, and lose all empathy for my fellow human being... Well, I can't exactly un-analyze the connection between trans issues and men's issues, autistic issues, and class struggle.
I guess we can see it as three redundancies: Are you directly affected by this form of marginalization? -> If not, do you feel empathy for your fellow human being? -> If not, how are you indirectly affected by this issue?
The problem is that empathy for the marginalized often comes from one's own experiences with marginalization, and that it often takes that initial empathy to be able to develop a deeper understanding of how one is affected by a given issue.
I want health care.. but also it wasn’t hard to extend the empathy to other people and similar goals.
Right me too there’s just a type of leftist who’s primary concern begins and ends with their own interests and all that other shit is secondary
a trans cat girl made fun of me on Twitter
It simply doesn’t make sense
never underestimate the depth of puritan brainworms
Are people saying that Angela Davis or Eldridge Cleaver were never actually on the left, or are you using an example outside of the normal scope of when public figures make a show of "Leaving the Left"?
Because in my experience, this discourse is almost exclusively around influencers and online figures, or primarily electoral figures. If you have a good example of someone like that being a pretty unambiguously genuine communist/socialist before turning to the right, then that would be more effective.
I disagree, there are many times when I listen to a 'leftist' speak and realize 'Oh man they have absolutely zero idea what they are talking about, this is purely vibes based.' I have spoken to many libertarians who claimed to have been former 'communists' who cannot describe to me the actual differences between marginal value theory and labour theory of value. These are not serious people, nor serious leftists, in general, they simply agree with whatever the popular consensus of who they find themselves around.
That being said, there are people who genuinely leave the left and their reasoning is usually that they believe that conservative stability and American hegemony is better for the working class. I think they are fooling themselves, but if it is articulated well, there is valid reasoning for 'leaving the left', particularly if you are old and just want to cozy up to the establishment. Opportunitism is valid reasoning, even if it is morally objectionable.
True, but we also shouldn't defend reactionaries ever no matter how based they may have been at one point or how based they might be in the future
I rarely see anybody coming for Angela Davis-like figures and questioning their authenticity. But when somebody like Dave Rubin makes a big pageant about "why I left the left" as a stepping stone to their new conservative media career, you have to at least wonder if they're being cynical little liars.
That said, there is no way to literally read their mind. Maybe the money clouds their judgment and they actually convince themselves.
I think it's a fair refrain, there's no way to prove whether any particular person truly understood what they believed, believed what they said before, or believes what they claim to now. Especially in our reality, for the left, wherein capital can simply pick off leaders or representatives of change, it's best not to consider such claims and just cut the loss.
For the overwhelming majority of people, their ideology is a product of/rationalization of their class position. For many of these 'left the left' people, I imagine many are people who dabbled in leftism as a hobby in their youth (esp. as college students) who eventually must rationalize their petit-bourgoise or PMC position.
It's more like, the things these "left the left" sort always end up saying demonstrate that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. I just had one tell me the other day that Marx said we have to execute anyone with wealth, but what about electricians? They have wealth are we going to execute them too???
No, you were never a leftist. You clearly never read ANYTHING Marx wrote if you don't know the difference between wealthy and bourgeois. It goes this way every single time I interact with one of these types. Usually they drop the pretense at some point and quote atrocity propaganda.
How do you explain Angela Davis, then? It’s kind of hard to argue that she’s not familiar with the theory or the praxis.
I'm not disagreeing. But i think the difference is that the "left the left" cliche is a right wing trope used by media grifters. They didn't change, they rebranded. Because they aren't activists or comrades, they're a product.
People out of the media parroting parts of that trope like, "I'm as left as they come..." or "the left has gone too far" deserves a lot of skepticism. Not because people can't change, but because if they're talking like that today, they're taking that language from reactionary media.
Obviously that doesn't apply to Cleaver or Davis
Yeah, but a lot of these people "leaving the left" were really just succdems/liberals. I don't think anyone who is not an anarchist or communist of some kind deserves to be called a leftist tbh.
