The ACP condemns the attack by the forces of the Russian Federation on Ukraine. The world stands shocked at this reckless act on the part of the Putin government and the loss of life and suffering among the peoples exposed to the conflict. This is not a battle between the progressive forces present in the region versus reactionary ones. Both sides represent the anti-people interests of rival imperialist powers determined to control resources and gain geo-political advantage.
Ukraine is a sovereign country that can choose to trade and ally itself with whomever it chooses. In this case, the servants of capital in parliament have chosen to side with the most aggressive and powerful imperialist bloc. Of course, the Russian Federation has legitimate fears that this will lead to the hosting of rival military forces and nuclear weapons on its border in preparation for a war for influence and resources. However, the decision to launch a “pre-emptive war” to head off this eventuality is hostile to the interests of the peoples living on the territory of Ukraine and beyond. It is ordinary workers and other exploited people who will suffer and the action cannot be justified.
The government of Ukraine is not a progressive or peace-loving one. It has stripped workers of their rights, including the right to form a Communist Party. It honours Nazi collaborators and besmirches the memory of the millions who died fighting fascism and defending socialism. But Putin’s government, the successor of the clearly traitorous Yeltsin one, is not a progressive force, either. Putin has cemented the power of the oligarchs (local monopoly capitalists) and continued the theft of the peoples’ collective property. It has pursued the most outrageous reactionary social agenda and cozied up to the most reactionary forces of the Orthodox Church.
It has been claimed by the pro-US media that Putin is nostalgic for the days of the Soviet Union and is seeking to reconstruct the USSR. This is a ridiculous claim. He was an opportunist who served without principle as a KGB officer and subsequently changed allegiances to the capitalist ruling class with consummate ease and great energy. There is nothing popular about the “peoples’ republics” established with Putin’s support in the majority Russian speaking regions of Ukraine.
The people of the world are right to condemn this resort to military aggression, but the US government and its servants in capitalist countries around the world have no right to self righteous condemnation. The examples are many but it’s enough to recall the invasion of Iraq in 2003. The government of Saddam Hussein was not to the liking of those powers but it was by their own definitions the recognised government of a sovereign country. The bogus excuse for the invasion that cost over a million lives was the alleged existence of “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq. No such weapons existed but the destruction and resource stripping continued. For the US and puppets like the Australian government to talk about the rights of sovereign countries is sick and dishonest. People must not be fooled by this cynical manipulation.
Workers the world over must work to stop “their” governments fomenting and waging war on their working class brothers and sisters. They must recognise their class interests, including that of a future of peace and mutually beneficial relations and not be drawn into the war hysteria being generated. Australian workers must struggle for the country to be removed from the US alliance as part of their struggle for a socialist society.
The government of Ukraine is not a progressive or peace-loving one. It has stripped workers of their rights, including the right to form a Communist Party. It honours Nazi collaborators and besmirches the memory of the millions who died fighting fascism and defending socialism. But Putin’s government, the successor of the clearly traitorous Yeltsin one, is not a progressive force, either. Putin has cemented the power of the oligarchs (local monopoly capitalists) and continued the theft of the peoples’ collective property. It has pursued the most outrageous reactionary social agenda and cozied up to the most reactionary forces of the Orthodox Church.
This is how you do 'both sides', people. Take notes.
It takes a whole paragraph though, which you don't usually have space or time for.
The easy answer is the enforcement of the Minsk protocols but Ukraine (and the US) won't have that.
I think this is bigger than the Donbas thought. This is about NATO/American encroachment and Russia taking a stand. This whole thing has been caused by the US turning it's allies in Europe and Ukraine against peace time and time again, presumably with the promise that Russia was just bluffing or that the US would intervene to defend. Well Russia wasn't bluffing, and it turns out the West has nothing to respond with but headlines. Now Nordstream 2 is ruined, they're talking about cutting one of the largest economies in the world out of the market, and Zelensky and Ukraine are fucked. Unless the US intervenes, Russia has shown what NATO and cooperation with Americans is actually worth - nothing.
All of the world is looking at America and realizing it will not protect them. America's adversaries are realizing that they can beat Goliath. The US is a decrepit failing empire surviving on promises it cannot keep and Russia is demonstrating it before our very eyes.
Russia has shown what NATO and cooperation with Americans is actually worth - nothing.
just blanket disagree with this. can't see how having a non NATO state be invaded in this way does anything but strengthen NATO. there's no chance under heaven that Russia would have made a direct attack on a NATO member.
to whatever degree people thought that NATO was a bit of a relic its become incredibly current, I know people are always looking for little glimpses of the fall of American hegemony but this has done nothing for it at all.
Being a MEMBER of NATO still has benefits. But all this batting of eyelashes shit just puts a target on your back and they’ve shown they won’t come to help you when the shit hits the fan.
my assumption was always that they wouldn't help countries they weren't allied with if another major/medium power attacked. that's not news.
also theres basically no one left in Russia's immediate orbit who isn't either in NATO or in Russia's sphere of influence.
it's just Finland, and Finland are making noises they want in to NATO now. so it's not being read like that by them at least.
find it hard to believe Russia would have any interest in Finland anyway.
This whole thing has been caused by the US turning it’s allies in Europe and Ukraine against peace time and time again
oh yeah, poor western Europe, being led astray by America. They would surely not be siding with capital if it weren't for America.
The thing with Donbas is that at this point they are puppets. All of the non Russian nationalist factions have been expelled or killed by Russian forces. The leaders of the 2 biggest groups have Russian special forces connections and also doing over border attacks.
Not mentioning Donbas is actually a very smart move in this. Just like them leaving out the Nazi connections in Russia. It focusses on the known facts.
Except it’s not a viable comparison. Unless Hamas was founded by an Iranian special forces member with connections to special forces and actively was trying to incorporate Palestine into Iran via peovoctuon and murdering and destabilizing all other groups.
Putin had 7 years to do anything to protect Donbass it’s not a coincidence things escalated there now. Same goes for Ukraine all are at fault.
your right it’s all shit but Donbass is the most shit crazy part of this. And leftists siding with Russia instead of doing what the ACP response is/revolutionaey defeatism is crazy.
Look around. How many are Taking the Russian claims of mass nazi influence in Ukraine (far right has 3% support right now the openly Nazi parts of the Russian military have more open support) How many are saying Putin’s obviously bogus claims are legit. Putin is a product and protege of fucking Yeltsin but people are taking him at face value simply because “US bad”
As for your claims about getting the whole picture I agree. But to do so you have to take into account ALL parts of it. Not just the Ukraine bad part. And this site has been really weird about acknowledging those. Especially the purgers of the socialists in donbass. Which is WEIRD
Also if that was your intention your post did not make it come out that way. It sounded exactly like the same shit I see on Twitter right now if people siding with Russia.
There was was no reason for them to include the extra details about Donbass in their statement just like there was no reason to include a detailed list of the Nazis both sides have.
As it says that is not the proper move right now
Where can I get the source on the 3% support for Nazis? And mind telling me why Maidan shouldn't be mentioned at all?
Let me find it. It’s in an article about the Nazi batallian. And When did I ever say maidan should not be mentioned. I said if it is you also need to mention Russian nationalists killing the socialists in the donbass break aways if you want the full picture Edit: Wikipedia has the data graphed out and the sources beneath Also note the very few seats they have and their overall support has never been high.
That's polling for political parties. Whoever is in power, they have continued to arm and support the various Nazi militias. I absolutely agree that Putin and Russia have their own Nazi problems but to downplay the same in Ukraine just because Putin said so is wrong.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY
again I’m fucking not. I’m saying that this sub acting like the Nazis control Ukraine (they don’t) is wrong. I’m also saying that If your entire reasoning for siding with Russia or saying that Botha idea is shit is because Nazis in Ukraine then that argument also goes to Russia
Everyone is shit in this there are no winners.
Nazis are allowed to openly celebrate and fight alongside the Ukrainian army. It isn't a bogus claim to say Ukraine literally tolerates Nazis like you said "How many are saying Putin’s obviously bogus claims are legit"
Dude. Look up the Wagner group. The Russian army also does and had them in Donbass years ago to help destabilize
I’m not apologizing for the Ukrainian Nazi cooperation. It’s unforgivable. But if you think the Russians are using Nazis to denazify. Then your just flat wrong.
I am not accepting his reason to invade and I agree with the Russian military having their own Nazi problem. I am only pointing out that the Nazi influence in Ukraine isn't made up by Putin and it certainly isn't a small influence.
Then we are in agreement. However it’s smaller then people on here were acting. They aren’t run by Nazis, Nazis weren’t threatening to coup the government.
Again both are shit. People trying to make claims one is more shit then the other doesn’t matter anymore. There is no good to come from supporting the invasion. Lenin said it best when writing about revolutionary defeatism there is no victor for socialism in a capitalist war just chances in the aftermath
I saw that the ukrainian head of state tolerated nazi flags in the millitary. Like, explicit institutional support matters a lot. I was in agreenment with the aussies' statement though, just pointing that out because i think its important
Russia has Nazi iconography in its military as well. And the Wagner group is middles after the SS in Russia.
Also important to know. My whole point still remains that there is no better side in this horse shit. People thinking Putin is Gonna de nazify the country have talked for as much propaganda a as they claim others have.
The ACP the right outlook
But this invites the question of whether such hesitation would also give time for US/NATO-led operations to establish a formidable counter-attack against Russian forces, ending with even more unnecessary deaths.
surely the answer to this is no? why would a NATO response to a limited war be stronger than the response to what seems like a full invasion? both sides know that everything is fucked if NATO troops and Russia come to blows
I'm with you. The Ukrainian government was shelling Donbas literally right before Russia committed. If we imagine for a moment that the UN was an actual global peacekeeping organization and went in to protect civilians, they would be doing pretty much what Russia is doing only with blue helmets.
But the UN isn't a global peacekeeping organization, and neither is the Russian military. There is no response possible within the dysfunctional, competitive and hyper capitalist global system except somebody invading and pushing their self interest alongside whatever amount of "peacekeeping" they take upon their own shoulders. And in this case, Russia blinked first, because Ukraine is right on their doorstep and they want it to be stable so that they can trade with Europe through it.
If we imagine for a moment that the UN was an actual global peacekeeping organization and went in to protect civilians, they would be doing pretty much what Russia is doing only with blue helmets.
that's a fucking mad statement my dude. in what world would it be a good idea for peacekeeping forces to launch a full invasion of a country that has experienced regional, sporadic and fairly low level shelling? that's happening all over the world all the time.
If you were to take the shelling serious, and issue the Ukrainian government an ultimatum like "stop killing civilians or we'll stop you", and they continued the shelling - the only way to stop them would be with military force.
pretty easy to avoid making ultimatums. just don't do it.
peacekeeping is about de-escalating conflict, not starting full ground wars because you didn't get your way
But then you're back to square one, which is that the Ukranian government is shelling civillians.
If you sign a deal to make them stop, like for example the Minsk Agreement, then you need an enforcement mechanism if they break it. At the end of the day, the last enforcement mechanism you can possibly turn to is military action.
that's just how it is. bad stuff is happening and you have to just keep trying to de-escalate. that's what peacekeeping is.
it's not rolling tanks through a country, killing thousands of people and destabilising the world to prevent a handful, maybe dozens? of deaths, it's just not
gp said:
If you sign a deal to make them stop, like for example the Minsk Agreement, then you need an enforcement mechanism if they break it. At the end of the day, the last enforcement mechanism you can possibly turn to is military action.
You need force behind your words. Like Gandhi in Civ: "Our words are backed with nuclear weapons."
that's fine and dandy for the realpolitik interests of a nation state, but it's not peacekeeping.
What peace was there to keep in the first place? You cannot keep peace where there is no peace: the war must be concluded first.
there was a sight more peace than there is right now.
it's definitely much worse now that Ukraine and Russia are in a full war than it was when there was sporadic bombing of a disputed territory.
if every minor engagement requires total war we will all be dead very soon, surprised this is so controversial.
8 years. For 8 years the people of Donetsk and Luhansk have been shelled. The pain will be over soon.
but nobody who condemns Russian invasion of Ukraine seems to offer an alternative solution to how the security of the Donbass regions could have been secured. [...] The situation is far more complicated than a simple condemnation
This is true. All we can say is that security won't be coming from military units under the command of the bourgeois dictatorship. We can all say what we hope for, but that is not the same as offering a solution. This is exactly the question that should be driven at.
I think the fog of war needs to clear a bit before more concise plans can be reasonably laid out in detail though.
It doesn’t help that china, the only nominally socialist country that has influence, is uninterested in offering alternative solutions. I understand why they stand with Russia, but it’s gonna require a lot of work for any alternatives to be taken seriously by anyone without that powerful support
comparing this thought out, well spoken response to whatever the hell Peter Coffin has been dribbling out is giving me whiplash in a good way.
That said they should also have mention Putin working and collaborating with Nazis as well. There’s no good guys right now. We just need to help those affected. rev defeatism ala Lenin wrote about.
Bitching about “woke losers” worrying about LGBT folks in Ukraine, claiming that the Russian anti war protests are a color revolution funded by the west, and saying that if you don’t support Russia you are an imperialist.
I mean what do we ex elect form the dude pushing a cancel culture is evil but from the left book.
Lmao at first I thought you meant Lenin and I was like "you can read what he said my dude"
Yeah I know, just the way it read at first made me jump to that and giggle
Exactly this. It's absolutely insane how the western left, supposedly people who want to win and get things done, always fetishize defeat so much. Like they do realize we should be following the example of those who win, not those who lose, right? As communists, we're not here to fucking lose and make a pretty face for future historians, we're here to get shit done, even if our methods may be ugly. It does not matter that Russia is not AES. The fact that it's the only thing keeping China from being fully encircled should be enough to at least tolerate its existence.
The fact that western leftists are even calling for Russians to destabilize Russia in such a precarious time is shocking and shows appalling disregard for the precariousness of the current situation. We are not fighting from a position of strength here, we cannot mess around like this.
The fact that Russia is a capitalist state isn’t even that relevant given that I don’t think anyone actually disputes Russia’s usefulness to AES; no, its domestic situation and the history of Ukraine are being leveraged as a rationalization for people’s instinctive distaste for sending in the tanks.
Nailed it.
really well stated, I'd been trying to formulate the Iraq rhetoric, but this does it very effectively
As Mao Zedong said: We must support whomever our enemy opposes and oppose whomever our enemy supports.
I do not care that Russia is the ebil capitalist nation. The fact that they are a very powerful ally to China is enough to tolerate their existence. The fact that they singlehandedly protect China from total encirclement is enough to tolerate their existence.
To profess "neutrality" is to give support to the more powerful side: America/NATO. You cannot neutrally observe a world in which you live in and have real material interests in.
And I thought we learned our lesson on that during the Cold War
Except then the battle was between world socialism and capitalism, not two competing capitalist blocs. Not picking sides in a capitalist imperialist conflict that will only hurt working people for isn’t exactly unheard of. Revolutionary defeatism and all that.
Wow. Incredible statement, really. Maybe aussies ain’t so bad after all
I love it when whenever someone mentions that Putin is a right wing capitalist the principled people here are going "STOP BOTH SIDESING A CONFLICT WITH TWO SIDES", ridiculous.
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Putin isn't a Communist
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Therefore Ukraine should join NATO
Is just a terrible material and historical analysis of the situation.
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CPI(M)'s take is far far better, no screaming "PUTIN PUTIN PUTIN!!!"
Also https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/eB2eQJPr2l.jpg
If they reordered the paragraphs this would be a surprisingly good take from a Western communist party
