• GVAGUY3 [he/him]
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    edit-2
    2 years ago

    The Holy Roman Empire is such a fascinating entity. Created because the Pope got mad at the Byzantine empire for having a woman in charge at the time. The Pope decided that Charlemagne was also Roman Emperor despite the Roman empire in the west being gone for centuries. Then like I think a century later that empire fell apart then later the Holy Roman Empire was revived again by Otto being crowned. That's all I really know about it history wise until Maximilian I and Charles V, then I know it was dissolved by Napoleon later.

    I don't really understand how it never centralized. I'm sure there is a ton of history, but I'm guessing everyone wanted to be powerful and didn't want to much power in the emperor.

    • Diogenes_Barrel [love/loves]
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      2 years ago

      Charlemagne's state was very centralised. in Ottos time too, even the Hohenstaufen's, the HRE was a peer in terms of central authority to France, Spain, etc. Renaissance too there was a concerted effort to tie it all together but the reformation borked it

      most of the vision of a weak moribund pretender to imperial power was an 18th century thing and very colored by Voltaire

    • DinkyBingus [he/him]
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      2 years ago

      Like most European feudal monarchies, the Middle Ages were characterized by huge power struggles between differing factions of nobles, as well as different tiers of nobles, for power over their respective territories.

      The Empire came to be dominated by specific powerful families. They would accrue power, attempting to meld Imperial authority with the power of their family. While today we associate the title of Emperor with the Habsburg family, in the years following Otto I, it was the Salian family that dominated the Empire. When they waned (being unable to produce enough sons through the male line), their place was taken by the Hohenstaufen family. The map in this post is the Empire under the Hohenstaufens, in the mid-12th century. They held territories that were nominally outside the authority of the Empire - the Kingdom of Sicily for example, was outside the authority of the Empire, but was still retained by the same family, so ruled in tandem. Eventually, the Hohenstaufens waned, like the Salians.

      The Hohenstaufens did not amass their power uncontested, however. Other power families, who sought to put themselves on top of the hierarchy, contested the succession of these Emperors. Succession was not regulated, outside of all of the imperial princes (each one of these territories on the map is held by a Prince, either a Secular Prince or Prince-Bishop/Archbishop) determining a successor. After every Emperor died, there were periods where jockeying between all of the families occurred, bribing, murdering, and negotiating with one another to determine who the next Emperor would be. This could last years, with the longest lasting 67 years. Of course, this did not stop people from claiming the authority of Emperor (or, more accurately, King of Germany - but these titles were linked and aren't exactly the same. It gets very complicated but to make it simple, the King of Germany was the Emperor-Elect, until he could be crowned Emperor). The Welfs, the House of Luxembourg, and the House of Habsburg all made bids for the Emperorship (as well as many outliers, like the Plantagenets of England, even).

      In 1356 the Golden Bull (Bull being a term for a decree, coming from a word for an etching into a metal plate - related to bullion) was proglumated, regulating the succession of the Empire. Instead of a free-for-all with every man throwing their hat into the ring for Emperorship, there were instead just 7 Electors. These were chosen from the 3 most powerful ecclesiastic positions (the Prince Archbishops of Mainz, Trier, and Cologne), the 3 most powerful secular families (the Duke of Saxony, Count Palatine, and Margrave of Brandenburg) as well as the King of Bohemia (who held many special privileges in the Empire as the only semi-independent King. These 7 men would select the Empire, and this was designed to stabilize the election of a new Emperor. For the most part, it worked, and becoming Emperor became a task of bribing 7 men, instead of 700.

      By the 16th Century, the Empire fell into the hands of Maximilian von Habsburg. Starting in 1495, Maximilian's focus was on trying to regulate and stabilize the Imperial Government. In 1495, the Imperial Chamber Court - or Reichskammergericht - was created. This court served as the supreme court of the Empire, to be used instead of Princes resolving disputes between them. It was in this period that blood feuds, and feuding in general, was banned. Instead, Princes had to present cases to the courts. If a case was sufficiently dire, the case would be presented to the Aulic Council, which was another court presided over by the Emperor. In 1500 local parliaments (Keistag) were established in the varying regions of the Empire. Six were created in 1500, and another four in 1512. These would represent the Emperor's authority more locally, and would give the region some semblance of self-sufficiency while centralizing power under the Empire (you can think of them like provincial governments).

      So. I've talked a bit about how the Empire was consolidating its power - or, at least, attempting to. What happened? And why did they fail where other states (Neighbouring France, for example) succeeded?

      The combined stresses of consolidating the legal structure of the Empire and authority of the Emperor, combined with the religious stresses of the Protestant Reformation (a whole other subject that I don't have time to go into) eventually consigned the Empire to a position where the Princes had a high degree of autonomy. This gave rise to states like Prussia, and yada yada Napoleon you know the deal from there.

      Other states were going through similar practices at the time. A good example to compare the Empire to is its neighbour France. France spent centuries feuding with its nobility over how much power the King held over his vassals. Some of these vassals happened to hold titles overseas (such as the Plantagenets, who were also Kings of England) - these wars were later drafted into later concepts of Nation-States and Nationalism, becoming categorized as the Hundred Years War between England and France. In reality, the heart of the conflict was really about the King of England not wanting to pay taxes in his land in France (He also wanted to be King of France sometimes, but it's complicated). Long story somewhat short, France whittled away at the authority of its nobility over centuries (ultimately culminating in the French Revolution of 1789, if you follow the through-lines).

      It's a bit of an anachronism that we always view the Holy Roman Empire as this vast array of tiny statelets, and her neighbours as single entities, when in reality all of these kingdoms, empires, principalities, etc, were in competition with one another and themselves over which guy with a fancy hat got to have the most power.

      You made me make a new account for this you'd better enjoy reading it :)

      • GVAGUY3 [he/him]
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        2 years ago

        You made me make a new account for this you’d better enjoy reading it :)

        I liked this alot! Keep posting this was really interesting and definitely different than what I've been told about the HRE. Do you have any good reading recommendations on the HRE?

        • DinkyBingus [he/him]
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          2 years ago

          If what I wrote made any sort of sense, I'd recommend Heart of Europe: A History of the Holy Roman Empire , by Peter H. Wilson. It can be pretty convoluted at times though, as he doesn't keep the topics he's covering chronological. It's also very dense, so if you're not acclimatized to that sort of reading, then it might not be for you.

  • Mindfury [he/him]
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    2 years ago

    some of that shit is like the size of a paddock in Australia, what is the fucking point?

    you own a detached house? cool story milord

  • Woly [any]
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    2 years ago

    Least Complicated European Political Landscape

  • ssjmarx [he/him]
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    2 years ago

    CKII players: Unrealistic border gore :wojak-nooo:

    • Mardoniush [she/her]
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      2 years ago

      The Pope thing was "the big fight" at the time between the Guelphs and Ghibellines. Papal States were independent from 1177.

      • Diogenes_Barrel [love/loves]
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        2 years ago

        i'd put 'Holy Roman' caesaropapism dead in the cradle with Otto III at the latest but maybe a Hohenstaufen got a bit wacky with it idk