Link to the paper in Science: Ancestry-inclusive dog genomics challenges popular breed stereotypes.
Environment and socialization remain the largest determining factor.
Unsurprisingly, most stereotypes about dog breeds are pseudoscience that come from the eugenics movement. In particular, “popular knowledge” around pitbulls and bulldogs is just thinly veiled racism.
interview on the study from the verge: https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/28/23043508/dog-breed-behavior-genetics-study-stereotypes
The research did find some genes associated with traits like human sociability and howling frequency. But overall, only around 9 percent of dog behavior was explained by breed.
“Dogs are individuals,” said Marjie Alonso, a study author and executive director of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. “What a dog looks like is not really going to tell you what the dog acts like.”
Edit: modern “purebred” breeding literally came from eugenicists, that’s why this old political cartoon even exists. Documentary on pedigree dogs and their many issues: https://vimeo.com/166015460
"We at Hexbear.net present to you the long awaited sequel to the outdoor cat struggle session."
Oh we already had this struggle session at least once before on the subreddit
this is the third time i've seen this posted in like.. i want to say.. the last 6 months?
Awesome, I guess I can just own a husky in my apartment just like a chihuahua and not worry about it, because its breed characteristics of being high energy and needing physical exercise (even compared to similar sized dogs) were just make believe! I guess retrievers being gentle, shiba inus being willful, and pitbulls having strong latching tendencies is all just a collective delusion.
Dog breed characteristics are absolutely real, and even considering them comparable to human genetic behaviors is basically doing race science believers' work for them. "Behaviors" among humans are completely different than an instinct driven animal like a dog, which is why evopsych and race science shit are trash science.
Looking at the actual study, the problems that cause the obviously bogus result are:
- They are going by survey responses. I can't even start to explain how this does nothing except aggregate beliefs. Who is gonna be like "oh yeah my sweet baby pitbull Cupcakes is extremely aggressive to other dogs and children and exhibits strong latching instinct!"
- Dangerous dog breeds often attack instinctually in ways that are completely different than their socialized nature. If you say your dog has never done something, that's not the same as saying the dog doesn't have a tendency towards it.
- They had to further muddle the data by trying to highlight a linear correspondence between breed DNA and reliability of that behavior. That's not how DNA works. For example, Corgi visual phenotypes are fairly dominant so breeding them with anything else will be guaranteed to look more like a Corgi. If you assume behavior is determined by DNA, the same idea applies.
If you want to insultingly compare this to human eugenic atrocities, then try going over to eastern Europe and do a survey of 20,000 people on what behaviors they've observed from different groups of people. Let me know how great the survey approach turns out there.
I think where this more likely applies is how every dog breed has a laundry list of ultraspecific behavioral tendencies that really tend to be nonsense in the same way wine tasting notes are often silly. They're way too specific and determined by limited subjective experience and bias. But you can absolutely identify broad characteristics among breeds.
They are going by survey responses. I can’t even start to explain how this does nothing except aggregate beliefs.
damning
Look over the actual paper, that comment is not coherent. Also from an 8 day old account, so they're probably one of those dweebs who keeps getting banned for being insufferable.
Look over the actual paper, that comment is not coherent
fta: "The study analyzed survey responses from nearly 20,000 dog owners about their dog’s behavior"
Also from an 8 day old account, so they’re probably one of those dweebs who keeps getting banned for being insufferable.
I'm guessing you've never been doxxed by chuds if you think rotating accounts is inherently sus
I kinda agree that written survey stuff is pretty weak. But like everything else in our stupid lives, dog breeds have somehow become political. And people absolutely make snap judgements about breeds and their owners based on racist and classist assumptions. I would generally agree with a study that found training/upbringing has a stronger effect on breed behavior than genetics because otherwise there wouldn't be a whole subculture around rehabilitating dog rescues.
:morshupls:
The bazinga is off the charts in this one.
you want to insultingly compare this to human eugenic atrocities
look up the history of where the dog breeds you care so much about came from :)
you can absolutely identify broad characteristics among breeds
the study speaks to this. it is present, but extremely limited. clearest example was hounds barking more and border collies being a bit more proficient at learning commands.
The bazinga is off the charts in this one.
You posted a science article to c/science. It's not "bazinga" to criticize shitty (or in this case, poorly messaged) scientific research in a science comm.
the study speaks to this. it is present, but extremely limited. clearest example was hounds barking more and border collies being a bit more proficient at learning commands.
You and I both know that the main use of this study in discourse will be over pitbulls, whether they exhibit breed specific aggression and attack behavior (latching, etc.), and whether they overall pose a danger to own as a pet.
Interesting you shift to pitbulls. That topic has been covered in other threads. Pitbulls are fine and the fear around them is largely based in racism.
example on how connected "dog breeds" and eugenics are:
https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/12/eugenics-man-at-kennel-club.html
I didn't shift. I just fully understand that there's exactly one breed over which breed characteristics is a hot button issue, and so I'm just anticipating the discursive application of these results.
example on how connected “dog breeds” and eugenics are:
Whether or not eugenicists were involved in early dog breeding (which, if you look at breeds like German shepherds or pugs, is obviously evil) has no relevance whatsoever on the existence of dog breed behavioral characteristics.
Pitbulls are fine and the fear around them is largely based in racism.
The only people I've known with poorly socialized pitbulls have been white rednecks bragging about how their huntin pit needed a train chain to be kept away from other dogs at home. The only ones with well socialized pits who I still saw maul a kid were white suburban people. The danger from pitbulls is empirical, and trying to paint your opponents as bigoted is a despicable exploitation of racial tension for rhetorical purpose. And one that's totally unnecessary given that the data is right there.
This seems like an American or western specific issue, 52 countries worldwide have dog breed specific bans/laws, and even more counties have further restrictions. Countries outside of the west can implement bans on dog breeds without being racist. It seems that the west has become so mind fucked that they try to ban dog breeds mostly owned by minority groups and/or POC in an attempt to do segregation. Which is just something else. Sounds similar to how voter ID laws are actually racist in the US because of the way the system is.
I know that Shanghai and Beijing ban most large dog breeds, including pitbulls. I know certain cities in sub Saharan Africa, like Gaborone, ban what they think are dangerous dogs. Then there's countries like Tunisia that straight up have country wide bans on dogs like pit bulls and boerboels. I don't think these areas have pit bull bans for racist reasons.
Pit bulls are responsible for 70% of all dog attack deaths
"bUt tHeY aRe sO pReCiOuS" -- people on this fucking website even
I'm at the point of begging. This whole thing depresses the fuck out of me. This is what - the second time we've had this same struggle session? Third? There's no traction to be found here, its just grinding metal long after the gear has been sheared off the drive shaft.
Like in different cultures people won't be taken kindly to being compared to a dog. I had a friend that nicknamed all the local dogs, both street dogs and those owned by someone, after dictators lol. He'd be like "oh there's Idi Amin" or "there's Hendrik Verwoerd". It was pretty funny, but it clearly showed that he didn't view dogs as pets.
Though I also have many friends that love dogs as well so...
I am literally not doing that. The concept of dog breeds and kennel clubs comes out of the eugenics movement.
https://time.com/4672972/the-dark-origins-of-dog-breeding/
hounds barking more and border collies being a bit more proficient at learning commands.
So you say there is a correlation between genes and behavior?
New genetic study shows that a dog’s breed doesn’t predict much about its behavior. Most stereotypes around dog breeds are wrong.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639
Environment and socialization remain the largest determining factor.
Like aren't most dogs trained by someone before they're even allowed to be with other people?
I really don't think the average person trains their dog that well.
My "dangerous owner of dangerous large breed" stereotype is some shithead in the burbs who doesn't pay any attention to it.
If all dogs can be aggressive than most people still shouldn’t own large dogs because most people can’t train a dog worth shit. Everyone and their mother in my neighborhood owns a big ass pit mix which is fine except for the fact that they freak out anytime they see another dog on a walk because they’re not trained. My in laws used to have a great pyrennes that they refused to train until it almost took someone’s hand off. An untrained dachshund is a menace but any dog that you can pick up when it’s trying to attack the neighbors’ dogs isn’t really a problem. But that’s just me with a thing about big dogs because one took a piece out of my ear as a kid
Like my college friend has a lab mix rescue that’s insane and they refuse to acknowledge it. They live in a standard apartment building and because of unfortunate circumstances someone’s chihuahua walked out into the hallway as their dog passed their door and it actually picked it up and hat it in it’s mouth. That’s fucking horrifying. Don’t own these dogs if you can’t take care of them and can’t take care of the safety of other people around you. Cops use attack dogs for a reason
Yeah, I don't really care about whether a dog's behavioral traits are inherent/genetic or not. I just don't want to have to get my arm tendons and muscles stitched up again because some irresponsible asshole left their backyard gate open.
If all dogs can be aggressive than most people still shouldn’t own large dogs because most people can’t train a dog worth shit.
That the approach quite a few cities and even countries take. Pretty much every large dog breed banned. Here's an example of all dog breeds banned in Beijing, including any mixed breeds of said breeds:
Mastiff, German pinscher, St. Bernard, Great Dane, Great Pyrenees, Bernese mountain dog, Rottweiler, Weimaraner, Setters, Afghan hound, Foxhound, Bloodhound, Irish wolfhound, Saluki, Greyhound, Borzoi, Basenji, Australian shepherd, Belgian shepherd, Bouvier des Flandres, Bearded collie, Scottish shepherd, German shepherd, Old English sheepdog, British bulldog, Chow chow, Dalmatian, Keeshond, Japanese akita, Newfoundland Sled dog, Bedlington terrier, Bull terrier, Kerry blue terrier.
It's a good thing everyone is working 40+ hours a day and has no leisure time in which they could do something like train a dog.
Then maybe they shouldn't own an animal capable of maiming or killing people.
Then maybe they shouldn’t own an animal
capable of maiming or killing people.
than most people still shouldn’t own large dogs
Yes, completely agree. Dogs are a huge responsibility and people do not think that through enough.
Smh a lot of liberalism about pit bulls here. And let me preface this by saying I really really do not care for dogs at all. I've had bad experiences with peoples aggressive, untrained loose dogs, and even the best behaved sweetest dogs are gross and smelly.
But that doesn't change the fact that pit bull bans are rooted in racism.
How has America become so fucked that dog breed bans become racist, Christ that country is cursed. Seriously, I'm reading that article all all I can think is "death to America"
Big cities in China and Africa manage to do dog breed bans without being a bunch of racists, my word someone pls help the USA, the brainworms are too strong.
Smh a lot of liberalism about pit bulls here
Every time :yea:
same. it's probably propaganda for pitbull lovers to share when attempts to ban the horrible breed in their area come around
It's empirically proven that pit bulls attack more people (and other animals) than other dog breeds
plus they are ugly as shit so I really don't understand the love for them by anyone who isn't complete white trash
so no, not joking, get rid of that trash breed
oh my god pitbulls are actually garbage no waaay not momma's little white trash doggo
This is classist. You should rethink that
If your hatred of the breed isn’t tied to classism and racism you should rethink how to express that without being reactionary at the very least
White trash is literally classist shit. I’m not even saying whatever about pit bulls. Don’t like them if you want I’m just saying there’s better ways to express that then grabbing literal reactionary terms for poor people.
imagine calling yourself a socialist and goin out of your way to be shitty about people with shittier material conditions than you.
Like the others pointed out, its probable that assholes seek out pits explicitly to make them mean, so it wouldn't be some inherent trait but maybe the conditions pits find themselves in that shape their behavior :soviet-hmm:
I suspect you dont think there's something inherent in black people that makes them to have a propensity to crime and yet reactionaries love to trot out crime statistics as an excuse to be shitty about black people
Regardless, theres no need to cutely portray my accusation like its about ableism or whatever, it is a classist thing, it reinforces negative stereotypes about the poor and honestly makes me feel like youre some over priviledged labor aristocracy kid or something or at the least have some unexamined classism/reactionary ideology going on and that that is actually your problem here more than anything else.
Otherwise, if it were me, i'd try not to talk like a reactionary when my making my points.
It’s empirically proven that pit bulls attack more people (and other animals) than other dog breeds
This doesn't tell you whether the behaviour is created by the owners or the breed.
It is much more likely that the reason this occurs is that bad owners are much more likely to want a Pit Bull than other breeds, and thus they raise bad dogs that are more likely to be involved in such things.
Anecdotally, I am complete white trash and have a pitbull.
The cool thing about science is that empirical observation works whether or not you believe in it.
Definitely echoes the feeling that any person I met who hates pitbulls, is also racist.
The study also said that pitbulls were the only popular breed people were likely to misguess in mutts. They have a nice selection of six dogs that are all around 25% pitbull and the average guesses vary from like 1-60% lmao
An aggressive, badly trained Golden is just as dangerous, pound for pound, as a rottie or a pitbull or whatever other breed of large, athletic dog. That's the point they're making.
This x:10000-com:. Don’t trust dogs you don’t know. They can be exceptional companions, but they need people willing to train/ raise / socialism them.
For real though. People fixating on pitbulls (which aren’t even an actual breed of dogs), ignores the reality that all dogs (especially large ones) require a lot of training and attention.
Dog breed bans don’t really work, especially in the US, and are mostly used as a tool for housing discrimination against marginalized groups.
socialism them
My dog sits up for the anthem of the ussr and always barks at landlords
My golden retriever fits all the stereotypes though. Friendly, energetic, eats literally everything nonstop (grass, bark dust, pine cones, toys, carpet).
No other dogs I have ever owned eat several lbs of bark chips if left unsupervised
I’m alluding to the mass prescription of Adderall and Ritalin for children (dogs are children now)
Were they a rescue? I know some dogs develop that when food security has been an issue for them, my dog is like that for that reason
The research did find some genes associated with traits like human sociability and howling frequency.
Oh cool, that last part was the only even slight counter-argument I have. There's a youtube channel I like that's just a dog groomer grooming dogs, and the most reliable thing to expect is that if she's grooming a Husky, it'll start howling like mad.
All other dog breed stereotypes being bullshit is something I can easily accept.
possibly very vocal cuz blizzard = no visibility and gotta communicate somehow.
Ahh, yes, a fresh new reason to hate the American Kennel Club. Give it to me in my veins.
The amount of people who apparently aren’t aware of their ties to eugenics is… weird.
