Did he actually lie about being tortured? To be clear: I don't mean to do any sort of apologetics for the united states since our actions in Vietnam were absolutely barbaric but just based on a quick search it seems pretty plausible he was subjected to the same kinds of stress positions and sleep deprivation the United States seems to do as standard operating procedure...and I absolutely consider that shit torture.
His account is disputed by Vietnamese who held him:
Respectfully: no shit it is. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm moralizing because it's simply objectively factual that whatever pain may or may not have been inflicted on a POW like McCain, the United States returned a hundred fold towards the civilian population of vietnam (let alone POWs)....but even the quotes in that article describe the prisons as "tough, but not inhumane"...which much like that cursed phrase "enhanced interrogation" reads to me as the equivalent of: "I mean it was rough...but...I wouldn't call it 'torture' persay. I mean I've totally seen worse in fraternity hazing."
I do find it extremely probable that McCain's worst long term injuries were the result of the plane crash...but I still don't discount that he was subjected to the same kind of traumatic treatment or worse that Chelsea Manning received in US custody...and again... that shit is fucking torture as far as I'm concerned.
You seemed unaware that there was anyone who seriously disputed McCain's account so I shared Tran's account. I agree that Tran has a vested interest in saying McCain wasn't tortured.
“tough, but not inhumane” which much like that cursed phrase “enhanced interrogation”
This could also indicate the meals sucked and prisoners slept on the floor etc. A longer interview with Tran could reveal if he considers stress positions, sleep deprivation, beatings, solitary confinement etc. to be torture.
I'm not trying to be a asshole, i'm just trying to be direct. I think its pretty self evident this would be the default line even if McCain's account was 100% accurate (which I agree it probably isn't).
This could also indicate the meals sucked and prisoners slept on the floor etc. A longer interview with Tran could reveal if he considers stress positions, sleep deprivation, beatings, solitary confinement etc. to be torture. McCain was a careerist, war criminal who has a shit record on opposing torture despite his pr to the contrary. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was tortured, but it isn’t my default assumption to take what he says at face value.
No doubt: McCain was 100% a shit bag and a warmonger. That's not in dispute. And again: uncritical support to our comrades in Vietnam and death to America. The amount of pain and suffering we caused there makes whatever happened to POWs pale in comparison. I also think its pretty plausible given what seems to be the all too common reality of war that he was subject to torture and I don't know how I feel about the confident assertion that "he lied" about it.
Did he actually lie about being tortured? To be clear: I don't mean to do any sort of apologetics for the united states since our actions in Vietnam were absolutely barbaric but just based on a quick search it seems pretty plausible he was subjected to the same kinds of stress positions and sleep deprivation the United States seems to do as standard operating procedure...and I absolutely consider that shit torture.
His account is disputed by Vietnamese who held him: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/14/uselections2008-johnmccain
I think a fellow pow disputes McCain's account too, but can't find an article (Google just turning up people lionizing him).
Edit: Cum_Desiccant has the article I was thinking of. Dude crashed an airplane, I'd imagine that could cause crippling, life long injuries
Respectfully: no shit it is. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm moralizing because it's simply objectively factual that whatever pain may or may not have been inflicted on a POW like McCain, the United States returned a hundred fold towards the civilian population of vietnam (let alone POWs)....but even the quotes in that article describe the prisons as "tough, but not inhumane"...which much like that cursed phrase "enhanced interrogation" reads to me as the equivalent of: "I mean it was rough...but...I wouldn't call it 'torture' persay. I mean I've totally seen worse in fraternity hazing."
I do find it extremely probable that McCain's worst long term injuries were the result of the plane crash...but I still don't discount that he was subjected to the same kind of traumatic treatment or worse that Chelsea Manning received in US custody...and again... that shit is fucking torture as far as I'm concerned.
I do not get your attitude. You asked:
You seemed unaware that there was anyone who seriously disputed McCain's account so I shared Tran's account. I agree that Tran has a vested interest in saying McCain wasn't tortured.
This could also indicate the meals sucked and prisoners slept on the floor etc. A longer interview with Tran could reveal if he considers stress positions, sleep deprivation, beatings, solitary confinement etc. to be torture.
McCain was a careerist, war criminal who has a shit record on opposing torture despite his pr to the contrary. I wouldn't be surprised if he was tortured, but it isn't my default assumption to take what he says at face value.
I'm not trying to be a asshole, i'm just trying to be direct. I think its pretty self evident this would be the default line even if McCain's account was 100% accurate (which I agree it probably isn't).
No doubt: McCain was 100% a shit bag and a warmonger. That's not in dispute. And again: uncritical support to our comrades in Vietnam and death to America. The amount of pain and suffering we caused there makes whatever happened to POWs pale in comparison. I also think its pretty plausible given what seems to be the all too common reality of war that he was subject to torture and I don't know how I feel about the confident assertion that "he lied" about it.
Noooooo it's like jumping on a trampoline, you couldn't possibly get hurt crashing a plane, haven't you seen the movies?
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PAVN can you guys torture John McCain as a treat?
John McCain wasn't tortured but he should have been :gigachad-hd: