Link

Pretty gross. Comments every bit as awful as you're thinking. Just a reminder of the abysmal state of non-cishet rights and acceptance in Russia.

Edit: can't get my screenshot to load properly so text:

T1: Putin on accusations against Russia in the energy crisis: "European countries are big specialists in non-traditional relationships and themselves abandoned traditional energy sources in favor of non-traditional ones"

T2: ("non-traditional relationships" is the legal term in Russia for all things "LGBT")

  • jabrd [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    It’s not an anti imperialist stance if you’re just trying to contest imperial hegemony on behalf of your own imperial ambitions. That’s still just imperialism

    • LeninsRage [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Anyone on this site who genuinely believes Vladimir Putin does "anti-imperialism" out of any motive other than supremely cynical, convenient, competing imperialist interest seriously needs to re-evaluate their stances and sources. Or, otherwise, go join the fucking Maupinite/Hazite clowns who are basically doing the most cringe reactionary shit imaginable, because they are your people.

      I say this as someone who has for a while tried to stay out of the dogmatic factionalist bullshit in favor of just shitposting when it comes to this site. If you've been suckered into believing a siloviki-dominated hyper-capitalist kleptocracy like Russia is a genuine force for "anti-imperialism", you've been fucking had in the worst way possible. Even the most mindless simping for modern Dengist China has a more rational basis.

      • Mindfury [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        I can't believe that I need to reiterate that we shit on Ukraine here because they're filled with nazoids, not because capitalist Russia is "good".

        You do not, under almost any circumstances, gotta hand it to post-downfall Russia

        • LeninsRage [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Literally no one here is arguing that Ukraine is good, but the actual leftists (as opposed to national chauvinists) here are arguing that this is unmistakably an inter-imperialist war and not some convoluted "the invasion of Ukraine is anti-imperialist because Russia is on the imperial periphery of a super-imperialist bloc" bullshit argument.

          I'm someone who can absolutely advance arguments that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was caused by outside imperialist circumstances. But now that it has happened, and is actual fact? There is zero "critical support" of Russian aggression here. The only legitimate communist position in this scenario is for Ukrainian and Russian soldiers alike to turn their guns on their own generals. Will that happen? No. But that's the fucking position the Bolsheviks themselves took from the start, not some ridiculous stance about how actually the Kaiser was right to resist all along and criticizing the German war effort is bad.

          • Mindfury [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            2 years ago

            but the actual leftists (as opposed to national chauvinists) here are arguing that this is unmistakably an inter-imperialist war and not some convoluted “the invasion of Ukraine is anti-imperialist because Russia is on the imperial periphery of a super-imperialist bloc” bullshit argument.

            exactamundo

            got some nerds in this thread saying that Putin is doing a heckin anti-imperialism and we have to work with him. The only thing i'd work with is a fucking icepick into his skull

            the only people deserving support in the fash on fash conflict are the workers and leftists having their unions and organisations outlawed by both cappie shitholes, and can only hope that they are able to organise and undermine both standing armies and execute all fash with prejudice

      • RedDawn [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Putin tricked us into thinking he was doing an anti-imperialism by checks notes doing an anti-imperialism. Damn, we've been had, we're such gullible fools.

          • RedDawn [he/him]
            ·
            2 years ago

            All wars are actually the same. Imperialism is when countries do things.

            • LeninsRage [he/him]
              ·
              2 years ago

              Of course they're not the same. Theres a meaningful difference between a civil war where one side is moderate liberals fundamentalist jihadist militias who will execute you for wearing the wrong color hijab in their neighborhood and a brutal minoritarian dictatorship who will shock your testicles until you admit to crimes against the regime for opposing them but are otherwise secular; and a war of aggression launched because the aggressive party feels threatened and wants to keep their sphere of influence (and capitalist plunder) secure from a superior competing camp.

              Yeah, there's context in between both of those, but at the end of the day that's what this is.

              • RedDawn [he/him]
                ·
                2 years ago

                and a war of aggression launched because the aggressive party feels threatened and wants to keep their sphere of influence (and capitalist plunder) secure from a superior competing camp

                Not even remotely reasonable analysis tbh. How do you feel about the DPR and LPR declaring indepence from the Ukraine after the US backed coup led to Nazis persecuting the Russian minority in the country? Since that's how this conflict started...

                And

                feels threatened

                How do you analyze the credibility of the threat? Were they actually trying to protect a "sphere of influence" or protect their own security from an existential threat like, say, a rapidly militarizing state on their border run by Nazis and literally artillery shelling along their own borders?

                • LeninsRage [he/him]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  2 years ago

                  Square me the circle of why the DNR and LNR secessions are legitimate while those in Dixie, Chechnya, Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang, and Hong Kong are not.

                  • pppp1000 [he/him]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    2 years ago

                    Taiwan isn't a secession. They literally claim the mainland, Mongolia and other parts as theirs. China freed Tibet from feudalism. HK was colonized by the British.

                    • RedDawn [he/him]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      2 years ago

                      Right I didn't get into each specific case he mentioned because he hasn't yet explained his thoughts on DPR/LPR which is what we were talking about but Hong Kong LOL nobody there even wants to break away from China, that's just completely misinterpreting the protests. Also Dixie "why is a bunch of slave owners trying to leave the country that looks headed to ban slavery less legitimate than people seceeding to not be murdered by Nazis hmm? Riddle me that ". This is the sort of thinking that idealism and refusing a principled anti-imperialist line leads to.

                  • RedDawn [he/him]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    Any secession attempt brings into conflict certain ideals like that of self determination against that of national sovereignty. Some are obviously more legitimate than others, it depends upon the reasons for seceeding and how the people living in the affected area feel about it, I don't see how that is even controversial, but I asked specifically how you feel about the DPR and LPR declaring indepence and holding territory over the last 8 years so I can better understand how you've come to the conclusion that Russia getting involved in that armed conflict constitutes imperialism and a "war of aggression".

    • TankieTanuki [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      When Russia provided military aid to Venezuela at the request of Maduro to resist the coup attempt, the US media called it Russian imperialism, but that seems more like anti-imperialism to me.

      • jabrd [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        I mean that’s siding with anti-imperialism for realpolitik reasons but it’s still for the sake of cracking up US hegemony to allow Russian ascendancy. The invasion of Ukraine has made it more than apparent that Putin sees Russia as having a sphere of influence where it can dictate terms for the nations around it and will enforce that understanding violently. That’s textbook imperialism akin to the early US dictating terms in Latin America.

        And yea that’s all because Russia was rejected from the kool kids (k)table at nato but the response has not been to adopt a left wing anti-imperialist stance

        • RedDawn [he/him]
          ·
          2 years ago

          The invasion of Ukraine has little to do with "dictating terms" or creating a sphere of influence, they're protecting their own country from imperial USA which has spent most of the last decade militarizing Ukraine after engineering a coup there to make the government rabidly anti-russia. I'm sorry but it's bananas to compare the Ukraine situation to the US/Latin America relationship and its equally ridiculous to call actions which are clearly anti-imperialist in their effects just the same as imperialism because of whatever you imagine the motivation for those actions to be. This is how we get things like claims of Cuban imperialism.

        • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Caring about intent is idealism, caring about outcomes is materialism. You don’t have to like Putin to realize we have to work with him (we, as in the global left and AES) and that he has been a reliable ally

          • Ligma_Male [comrade/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            work with

            :yikes-1: :yikes-2: :yikes-3:

            if putin wants to help us that's great, we'll take it, but if he ever comes around asking for anything, fuck him, he's got feet and he can kick rocks.

            • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              I mean if you're in a global south country that the US doesn't like or care about, you're kind of forced to work with Russia and Putin, as much as it sucks. See Venezuela, Cuba, etc. China is non interventionist so it's not an option.

              Sometimes the outcomes are good, sometimes they are shit.

            • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
              ·
              2 years ago

              but if he ever comes around asking for anything, fuck him, he’s got feet and he can kick rocks.

              I'm sure that Vlad is devastated that he cant rely on the proven track record of the Western Left.

    • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Putin is, at the very least, anti-hegemonic in the sense that he falls squarely in the bloc opposing the current hegemonic powers. Whether or not he's also anti-imperialistic is up for debate, but personally anti-hegemonic countries are relatively rare and any which fall into that camp deserve at least critical support.

    • spring_rabbit [she/her]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Fighting against imperialism is actually just imperialism, if your intentions aren't pure.

      • jabrd [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Supporting my anti-imperialist comrades in ISIS as they undermine American hegemony

        • spring_rabbit [she/her]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Undermining American hegemony by...destabilizing a region that America benefits from being unstable? Not really the same situation. Russia is actually doing real harm to our ability to maintain a global stranglehold. That is a good thing, even if Putin is otherwise a shitty reactionary capitalist.

          • jabrd [he/him]
            ·
            2 years ago

            But that’s my point, he is a reactionary. A meteor isn’t anti-imperialist if it lands in the north atlantic. Anti-imperialism is a coherent political project that Putin isn’t taking part in. There might be overlapping goals/methods, but Putin’s political project is a just a competing imperial power. There’s no victory for the left in Russia’s victory as much as there absolutely is one in America’s defeat

            • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              2 years ago

              You are forcing your conclusion with your chosen analogy. That meteor would be anti-imperialist IF it was forced into hitting the North Atlantic because the North Atlantic cornered it and was antagonizing it. Russia against the US isn’t random

              Anti-imperialism means you fight against the hegemonic empire. Period, that is it. Intention is not relevant

              • jabrd [he/him]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Marx failed to consider that the meteor is, in fact, anti-imperialist

                • crime [she/her, any]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  "...feudal system in which even the homeless vagabonds, the comets, have been apportioned their station in life and in which, for example, the shattered asteroids bear witness to occasional unpleasant scenes, while the meteors, those fallen angels, creep shamefaced through the “Infinite space”, until they find somewhere or other a modest lodging."

                  from Vol II of The German Ideology

        • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
          ·
          edit-2
          2 years ago

          ISIS is American-backed imperialist force, and Russia crushed it

          Another point in our favor, not yours

          • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Weird way of saying that ISIS was primarily crushed by communalist Kurds and others aligned with them in Northern Syria while Russia dicked around and bombed the people actually fighting ISIS.

                    • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      2 years ago

                      Two heroes of the people against colonial fascism, who have done more for those resisting imperialism than anyone on this website or in American politics

                      Just take the word of DPRK, or PRC, or Cuba. DPRK has never been wrong on foreign policy and issues of imperialism before, and they all hold this stance

                      Why is it so hard just to get westerners to agree with foreign AES on issues of imperialism?

                        • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          2 years ago

                          lol go fight for American proxies in Balkanized Syria and help loot oil and call yourself a libsoc, continue the grand western left tradition of always being wrong

                          Call me an Assadist, you know you wanna

                          • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            Keep supporting the Islamic Republic and the eternal presidency of the Assad family. Such a supporter of the people and their revolution.

                            I'm not a libsoc, but I'm certainly a socialist. You seem to either be the world's most credulous socialist or a fascist.

                            • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              2 years ago

                              Call me an Assadist. You yearn to. Take me back to 2016 before 99% of you lot realized you were wrong

                              • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                ·
                                2 years ago

                                There's no such thing as an Assadist. That would imply that the Assad family has any ideology beyond self-promotion and paranoia.

                                  • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                    ·
                                    edit-2
                                    2 years ago

                                    Killing isn't an ideology, it's an action. If Assad has any ideology at all, it is Alawi supremacist nationalism, but even that suggests far more belief in something than the man has ever demonstrated.

                                    Bashar Al Assad is a flailing failure of a dictator who has shattered what remained of the economy he accidentally inherited from his father when his loser brother was turned into soup-like homogenate in the Swiss Alps. His father betrayed everyone he ever worked with and regularly backed supporting reactionary regimes throughout the region. He kills people because it is the only way to retain power. Most of the people he kills are Syrians.

                                    Soleimani, at least, had an ideology. He was a member of the IRGC, the organization primarily responsible for the preservation of the Islamic State. A regime that ascended into power with the help of Marxists, then turned around and murdered them in the streets. The command of the IRGC is a profiteering elite permitted special monopolies over industrial interests. In short, it supports hyperexploitative capitalism mixed with reactionary bigotry. A great ideology for a "people's hero", I'm sure.

                                    • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                      ·
                                      2 years ago

                                      Anti-imperialism isn’t an ideology, it’s an action. That’s my point. The ones doing the actions are the ones you are attacking

                                      • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                        ·
                                        2 years ago

                                        In the case of Syria, the phrase you're looking for is: "The ones bombing the people who actually fought ISIS are doing so for totally anti-imperialist reasons, because anti-imperialism is when you bomb the people who are doing real, beneficial things for people, because America and dogs or something."

                                        Hell, the fucking SDF is better at killing Turks than Assad is!

                                        • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                          ·
                                          edit-2
                                          2 years ago

                                          :PIGPOOPBALLS:

                                          Everything you wrote is wrong. It was wrong 6 years ago, but then at least ignorance was understandable. Imagine being like this in 2022

                                          • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                            ·
                                            2 years ago

                                            Sorry to bring actual facts into things. I know you prefer it when reactionary leaders make up stories about how heroic they are while being bumbling fuckwits and anti-socialist monsters.

                                            • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                              ·
                                              edit-2
                                              2 years ago

                                              You are wrong on every count, you have no facts, and the Kurds are American imperialist proxies looting oil and food from starving Syrians. The CIA convinced you to support them lol you are that gullible. Next you will be supporting Hong Kongers

                                              • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                                ·
                                                2 years ago

                                                The "Kurds" are a diverse group of people who aren't just Kurds in Northern Syria who have fought ISIS and Turkey while Bashar Al-Assad pisses himself and declares it genius.

                                                I don't give a fuck about Hong Kong one way or another. The advocates for independence are racist hypercapitalists. The CPC has absolutely shat the bed in managing the social problems created by Hong Kong's predatory capitalism, and that resulted in what it always results in: reactionary revolts.

                                                • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                  ·
                                                  2 years ago

                                                  Use context clues, we are obviously discussing the Syrian Kurds and their imperialistic opportunistic allegiance with the American military

                                                  • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                                    ·
                                                    edit-2
                                                    2 years ago

                                                    Well, I was pushing back on "the Kurds" as a description of the SDF, since it isn't particularly accurate.

                                                    And imperialism is when people surrounded by stronger enemies take whatever help they can get, huh? You'd fucking hate most revolutionary-period communist parties if you held them to that standard.

                                                    • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                      ·
                                                      edit-2
                                                      2 years ago

                                                      Sounds like something a comprador would say

                                                      Why were fellow Syrians "enemies" while American fascist pig invader genociders were "whatever help they could get".

                                                      Why was this not inverted?

                                                        • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          2 years ago

                                                          Aiding imperialist invaders for your own personal advancement is the definition of being a comprador

                                                            • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                              ·
                                                              edit-2
                                                              2 years ago

                                                              I don't see any socialism happening, just redistribution of looted imperial plunder among a small ethnic clique

                                                              what part of "dont be a proxy of the imperialist hegemon, ever, or don't whine about consequences if you do" is hard to understand?

                                                              • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                                                ·
                                                                edit-2
                                                                2 years ago

                                                                That's because you know absolutely nothing about Rojava and you're still talking out of your ass while pretending that the coalition of people there, including a number of different ethnicities, is doing what the state you actually support does: loot the natural resources of Syria to advance a small ethnic clique to the detriment of all other Syrians. That's the Assad government you're describing.

                                                                • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                                  ·
                                                                  2 years ago

                                                                  YPG/YPJ work with SDF to safeguard American convoys of YPG/YPJ controlled oil (that was not theirs at the start of the conflict) out into Iraq.

                                                                  Do you agree or disagree that this is happening?

                                                                  • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                                                    ·
                                                                    2 years ago

                                                                    Unclear whether it is still happening, given the current conditions, but it certainly has happened in the past.

                                                                    Revolutionary socialists selling oil to fund their resistance to two reactionary regimes? Oh no! That's only good when Venezuela does it!

                                                                    Now who had the oil before, huh? What were they doing with it? Funding an insane hyper-salafist theocratic hell you say? Obviously it is worse that socialists have that oil!

                                                                    Perhaps you mean before ISIS? Exactly what you accused the YPG/YPJ of doing! Looting that oil to enrich a small ethnic minority!

                                                                    It sucks that the US are involved, but I support actual existing socialism, not incoherent "anti-imperialism" that has done nothing to harm the hegemon.

                                                                    • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
                                                                      ·
                                                                      2 years ago

                                                                      Were other "revolutionary socialists" propped up militarily by US army and airforce? Supplying them bases while they are invading a nation, balkanizing it?

                                                                      • KollontaiWasRight [she/her,they/them]
                                                                        ·
                                                                        2 years ago

                                                                        I can think of one revolutionary socialist regime that was dependent on US military support to prop it up against a reactionary regime determined to crush it in order to advance the interests of a racial elite, yes. I imagine you could, too, if you thought about it for a moment.

                                                                        For all your accusations that the western left is too purist, you are the one being a purist when actual existing socialism exists and depends on whatever help it can get to protect itself from reactionary regimes that wish to smash it. Obviously, the US can't be trusted in that role, as it has already basically sold the YPG and SDF out to Turkey in order to get Finland and Sweden into NATO. You can certainly criticize the YPG for being foolish, but you are doing everything in your power to project the reality of the Assad regime onto the YPG, not criticizing it for foolishness.

                                                                        You're a very skilled liar. You pivot away from anything inconvenient to you and constantly stay on the attack without ever actually saying anything of worth. Everything you accuse the YPG/SDF/Rojava of is the essence of how Assad's government operates. You will continue not to address this reality, because you know it is true.

                          • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            2 years ago

                            One of the hosts of one of the podcasts people like on here did actually go to Syria to fight for the Kurds.

                            Though that was before US involvement I think

      • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Here come the westoids to divine the intent of nations outside the core and judge them for their lack of purity

          • RedDawn [he/him]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Yeah, it's a shitty capitalist oligarchy and Putin is awful and homophobic. That doesn't mean that when they do a thing which is anti-imperialist, you look at the action itself and say "oh actually this action is bad and imperialist because the country or person doing it is bad".

              • RedDawn [he/him]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Definitely, I'm 100% on board with that, obviously. Fuck Putin and the Russian government for being awful to our LGBT comrades.

    • A_Serbian_Milf [they/them]
      ·
      2 years ago

      Tell me, how imperialist was the stabilization of Syria, and the destruction of color revolutions in Belarus and Kazakhstan?

    • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      Yeah. Just look at how badly Russia faired in Mozambique with the Wagner group fools. They seem to be doing better in central and west Africa though

      I'd still like a multipolar world though. Even if It's still a capitalist hellscape, at least it's better than what we have now.

      • jabrd [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        A multipolar world would be nice because it would actually allow opportunity for the left as things crack up but yea there will be plenty of other actors also interested in that opportunity