Biden just condemned Antifa, so spare me the vote-shaming crap. Joe Biden is not an ally. https://t.co/XPHu1guHTV— Pat the General Striker 🦺🌹 (@PatTheBerner) September 8, 2020
The only way he's harm reduction is that he'd lazily stroll towards fascism while Trump would keep sprinting towards it. The left is not anywhere close to organized enough to deal with full-tilt fascism, so arguing that we should prefer the candidate who will at least give us a little more time to get organized has some merit.
Trump is not bringing about fascism though. They have no movement and he's incompetent. He's bringing about a shitter time for everyone but he's not making fascism happen and he's not helping turn liberals into fascists -- he's doing the opposite.
The left needs to not get caught up in this nonsense liberal shit that Trump is an actual fascist or bringing about fascism. Only the libs actually believe that.
90% + support among Republicans (for years straight, too), tons of support among cops, and a growing number of people who are willing to take advantage of cops' indifference to go beat up people on the streets. That's a movement.
he’s incompetent
He's incompetent at many things, but he's extremely competent at whipping his supporters into a frenzy and getting them to believe whatever he wants them to believe. Likewise, he's extremely competent at soldiering through the type of political landmines that would take out most other politicians.
he’s not helping turn liberals into fascists – he’s doing the opposite
The vast majority of libs aren't anti-fascist so much as they're anti-Trump. They had no problem with all the bad shit Trump is doing back when Obama did it, just like all the libs up in arms about election interference completely ignored Democrats rigging their 2016 and 2020 primaries.
You are conflating liberals with fascists and turning everything into a giant fucking boogieman that isn't there. The fascists can't even get more than 50 people to show up to anything in the streets. They're in complete demoralisation in all their communities right now as they're quickly realising shooting at the left results in getting shot back and hasn't put a single dent in leftist infrastructure or turnout. They are a larp. It's meme fascism with no real bite.
This libertarian fascism "movement" you claim to exist simply does not. You can't have a fascist movement without infrastructure, without youth training programs, with a collective ideological belief, without actual ideological education and experience building to create a real fighting force. They have NOTHING. Nada. Stop building a boogieman that isn't fucking there.
They do not have anything to bring about a rebirth. There is no pathway to fascism whatsoever on their existing pathetic attempt at a movement. They don't even have a tiny pathetic fraction of the organisational power that movements occurring in Europe currently have that are centralised with strong figures, proper programs, youth wings and real actual ideology.
You are conflating many many different groups into one boogieman. Stop it. Stop scaring yourself with this made up enemy and look at what they actually have.
I agree that Trump can certainly be portrayed as a real overblown bogeyman. But reading your comment in full makes me feel like we've been living in different United States from each other for the past four years.
The biggest event the fascists have ever had was Charlottesville and it took them months and months of organisation and mobilisation to achieve. It was the potential start of real centralised european style movement building for them. Then some guy ran over a bunch of people, killed their entire image and put an end to it as soon as it began. They have been utterly incapable of mobilising much since.
Compare it to the left. Infrastructure to actually mobilise thousands of people when necessary. The ability to actually get people to show up.
A handful of fascists showing up and looking mean with guns in opposition.
Go visit their communities. They're extremely demoralised right now because they see the left, see its ability to mobilise, see its infrastructure and organisers, and they have no fucking idea how to oppose it. They're scared and sad and only a tiny TINY percent of them are actually willing to die for their ideology. The rest are noise machines and online memeing with no real desire to do anything at all in the streets. Watch any interviews with even the militia chuds that have shown up to things. They don't want to get shot. They enjoy their militia stuff but they're not down for a war AT ALL.
Don't get me wrong, there's a few groups that are legit dangerous, Proud Boys etc. But they're fucking tiny and nobody should be blowing this up into some enormous boogieman. Look at things in individuality. Especially given the anarcho-fascist construction of their useless movement.
The real threat from them right now is a potential pivot into becoming a cult movement through Q. Then they would centrally organise through a form of proto-religious zealotry and Q "sermons".
You can’t have a fascist movement without infrastructure, without youth training programs, with a collective ideological belief, without actual ideological education and experience building to create a real fighting force.
Infrastructure: lol how about the Republican Party (again, 90%+ support for Trump, which has held consistent for years), multiple branches of the federal government, cops, plus all of the right-wing crank organizations that have been lurking below the surface of all of the above for decades?
Youth training programs: all of the above do this; the Kenosha murderer was in some junior cop program.
Collective ideological belief: there are countless right-wing think tanks that have spent decades priming the pump for fascism, to say nothing of the past century of anti-communism as an unquestionable axiom of American political life.
Actual ideological education: the Federalist Society, a cornucopia of College Republican groups, Prager U and the YouTube grifters, all the book companies that published volumes of Ann Coulter-style drivel, the most popular talk radio program in the country, the most popular cable news network in the country, the largest firearm owner association in the country, and on, and on, and on, and on -- and don't forget all the lib outlets that will carry water for fascism even if they won't openly cheerlead it.
Experience building a real fighting force: how many cops and vets are chuds?
You have a few good observations, but holy fucking shit you're not even in the right galaxy on any of this.
Well I guess we disagree then. Personally I think you're being ridiculous and that you don't seem to understand the difference between conservatives and the actual ideological followers of fascism. They are not the same thing.
This is what happens when people call every single thing on the spectrum of fucky authoritarians fascism itself, it confuses people in such a way that they can't tell the fucking difference between the people that want gas chambers and half the bourgeoisie class killed vs the right wing of the bourgeoisie itself.
Palingenetic ultranationalism is a theory concerning generic fascism formulated by British political theorist Roger Griffin. The key element of this theory is the belief that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of revolution in order to achieve a "national rebirth"—palingenesis. Griffin argues that the unique synthesis of palingenesis and ultranationalism differentiates fascism from para-fascism and other authoritarian nationalist ideologies.
They already uncritically support every genocidal war we've fought or are fighting, they already support the concentration camps we're running, they already support the domestic police state we've built, and they're already been primed (via white supremacy) to view all sorts of people as subhuman -- what makes you so sure they'd balk at gas chambers?
Could you please give me a few of your theoretical underpinnings?
Which books and theories from them do you use for your analysis?
Which framework of fascism do you use?
Do you have a strong differentiation between authoritarianism, jingoism and fascism?
Was Spain under Franco Fascist from your point of view?
What is your empirical and cultural data for the analysis of the Fascists, Right wing movements, the Republican party and Trump(-ism)?
Do you think even though Fascism is the wrong term for Trump and his followers, that whatever term you would chose, is a an existential danger for the people / the left? In the sense of more dangerous structurally than pure bourgi, partially neolib actors in the political spectrum like Joe Biden / Mitch McConnel?
I've been an ML party member for a few years, formerly anarchist of 20 years. I'm not doing all of this at 9am in the morning though lmao.
I'll hit that last bullet since it doesn't require me going digging or spending a lot of time -- Yes and no. Fascist in the casual use in the same way we all call cops fascist? Yes. Fascist in the sense that we're going to have institutional policy from the top down to murder people for their ideology or race under him? No. Now, don't get me wrong on that last point, people will die to police, prison, and so on but I don't think it is going to be organisational policy to remove the left from existence. All of those same deaths and problems will happen under Biden too.
You are conflating liberals with fascists and turning everything into a giant fucking boogieman that isn’t there. The fascists can’t even get more than 50 people to show up to anything in the streets.
lol you've never read a word of Marx and think anyone should care about your illiterate bullshit. Try learning the actual Marxist definition of fascism
I'm an ML party member. We interview for membership, have an 8 book reading list prior to joining as well as a lengthy education program for members themselves. You shouldn't make accusations like this, it's very silly stuff. Which party are you with?
He is a fascist, just a really bad one. Successful fascists have at least some sort of plan, some sort of way to advance their reactionary thinking. Trump doesn't have that, so he's is very weak and ineffective considering the power he has access to.
He's not a fascist, not the palingenetic ultranationalist kind anyway which is what we're really talking about when we talk about the coming about of actual fascism. He's just a self absorbed bougie that uses whatever is going to benefit him at any one time to get ahead. He uses them. The only thing Trump gives a shit about is furthering himself.
If you don't see that as using the reactionaries I don't know what to tell you. You're absolutely fooling yourself if this man is an ideological fascist, he's not. He wears their aesthetic to manipulate them just like the "progressive" liberals wear socialism to manipulate the left. This conversation works in reverse for every single socdem claiming to want a revolution with smallprint.
He hasn't created a fascist movement though. The fascists were there before him, and they'll be there after him, but they haven't been bolstered by him. The smart ones with real ideological understand and beliefs are even vocally stating they want to get away from him because they see him as harmful and preventing their growth now, see: Richard Spencer.
What he has created is a Trump movement. Conflating every Trump supporter with the people that are willing to go out into the streets and die for a national rebirth is nonsensical though. They're not. They're pampered disorganised fools with zero sense of any ideology at all. Without Trump and without any movement infrastructure at all what happens to them post-Trump is completely up in the air. This is why Q is the relevant threat.
The way I see it, he is a fascist follower with no leader. But he's also president, which makes things weird. Maybe you can't really consider him a fascist at that point, but he's definitely something like a fascist.
He’s not a fascist, ...He’s just a self absorbed bougie
redditors care more about taxonomy than actually having solidarity with the working class, this is what happens when middle class nerds LARP as communists
The only way he's harm reduction is that he'd lazily stroll towards fascism while Trump would keep sprinting towards it. The left is not anywhere close to organized enough to deal with full-tilt fascism, so arguing that we should prefer the candidate who will at least give us a little more time to get organized has some merit.
Trump is not bringing about fascism though. They have no movement and he's incompetent. He's bringing about a shitter time for everyone but he's not making fascism happen and he's not helping turn liberals into fascists -- he's doing the opposite.
The left needs to not get caught up in this nonsense liberal shit that Trump is an actual fascist or bringing about fascism. Only the libs actually believe that.
90% + support among Republicans (for years straight, too), tons of support among cops, and a growing number of people who are willing to take advantage of cops' indifference to go beat up people on the streets. That's a movement.
He's incompetent at many things, but he's extremely competent at whipping his supporters into a frenzy and getting them to believe whatever he wants them to believe. Likewise, he's extremely competent at soldiering through the type of political landmines that would take out most other politicians.
The vast majority of libs aren't anti-fascist so much as they're anti-Trump. They had no problem with all the bad shit Trump is doing back when Obama did it, just like all the libs up in arms about election interference completely ignored Democrats rigging their 2016 and 2020 primaries.
You are conflating liberals with fascists and turning everything into a giant fucking boogieman that isn't there. The fascists can't even get more than 50 people to show up to anything in the streets. They're in complete demoralisation in all their communities right now as they're quickly realising shooting at the left results in getting shot back and hasn't put a single dent in leftist infrastructure or turnout. They are a larp. It's meme fascism with no real bite.
This libertarian fascism "movement" you claim to exist simply does not. You can't have a fascist movement without infrastructure, without youth training programs, with a collective ideological belief, without actual ideological education and experience building to create a real fighting force. They have NOTHING. Nada. Stop building a boogieman that isn't fucking there.
They do not have anything to bring about a rebirth. There is no pathway to fascism whatsoever on their existing pathetic attempt at a movement. They don't even have a tiny pathetic fraction of the organisational power that movements occurring in Europe currently have that are centralised with strong figures, proper programs, youth wings and real actual ideology.
You are conflating many many different groups into one boogieman. Stop it. Stop scaring yourself with this made up enemy and look at what they actually have.
I agree that Trump can certainly be portrayed as a real overblown bogeyman. But reading your comment in full makes me feel like we've been living in different United States from each other for the past four years.
The biggest event the fascists have ever had was Charlottesville and it took them months and months of organisation and mobilisation to achieve. It was the potential start of real centralised european style movement building for them. Then some guy ran over a bunch of people, killed their entire image and put an end to it as soon as it began. They have been utterly incapable of mobilising much since.
Compare it to the left. Infrastructure to actually mobilise thousands of people when necessary. The ability to actually get people to show up.
A handful of fascists showing up and looking mean with guns in opposition.
Go visit their communities. They're extremely demoralised right now because they see the left, see its ability to mobilise, see its infrastructure and organisers, and they have no fucking idea how to oppose it. They're scared and sad and only a tiny TINY percent of them are actually willing to die for their ideology. The rest are noise machines and online memeing with no real desire to do anything at all in the streets. Watch any interviews with even the militia chuds that have shown up to things. They don't want to get shot. They enjoy their militia stuff but they're not down for a war AT ALL.
Don't get me wrong, there's a few groups that are legit dangerous, Proud Boys etc. But they're fucking tiny and nobody should be blowing this up into some enormous boogieman. Look at things in individuality. Especially given the anarcho-fascist construction of their useless movement.
The real threat from them right now is a potential pivot into becoming a cult movement through Q. Then they would centrally organise through a form of proto-religious zealotry and Q "sermons".
You have a few good observations, but holy fucking shit you're not even in the right galaxy on any of this.
Well I guess we disagree then. Personally I think you're being ridiculous and that you don't seem to understand the difference between conservatives and the actual ideological followers of fascism. They are not the same thing.
This is what happens when people call every single thing on the spectrum of fucky authoritarians fascism itself, it confuses people in such a way that they can't tell the fucking difference between the people that want gas chambers and half the bourgeoisie class killed vs the right wing of the bourgeoisie itself.
TL;DR: "Make America Great Again." And while Trump might just say it because it makes the chuds cheer him on, the people cheering actually believe it. And no, they don't need to be some fanatic ready to kill and die for the cause to be fascists -- they just need to support a few people who are like that and then "I'm just doing my job" the rest of the way.
They already uncritically support every genocidal war we've fought or are fighting, they already support the concentration camps we're running, they already support the domestic police state we've built, and they're already been primed (via white supremacy) to view all sorts of people as subhuman -- what makes you so sure they'd balk at gas chambers?
Hmmm. Well we're going to find out I suppose! Our disagreement on the topic won't be changing the outcome.
read Marx liberals
Could you please give me a few of your theoretical underpinnings?
Which books and theories from them do you use for your analysis?
Which framework of fascism do you use?
Do you have a strong differentiation between authoritarianism, jingoism and fascism?
Was Spain under Franco Fascist from your point of view?
What is your empirical and cultural data for the analysis of the Fascists, Right wing movements, the Republican party and Trump(-ism)?
Do you think even though Fascism is the wrong term for Trump and his followers, that whatever term you would chose, is a an existential danger for the people / the left? In the sense of more dangerous structurally than pure bourgi, partially neolib actors in the political spectrum like Joe Biden / Mitch McConnel?
I've been an ML party member for a few years, formerly anarchist of 20 years. I'm not doing all of this at 9am in the morning though lmao.
I'll hit that last bullet since it doesn't require me going digging or spending a lot of time -- Yes and no. Fascist in the casual use in the same way we all call cops fascist? Yes. Fascist in the sense that we're going to have institutional policy from the top down to murder people for their ideology or race under him? No. Now, don't get me wrong on that last point, people will die to police, prison, and so on but I don't think it is going to be organisational policy to remove the left from existence. All of those same deaths and problems will happen under Biden too.
lol you've never read a word of Marx and think anyone should care about your illiterate bullshit. Try learning the actual Marxist definition of fascism
I'm an ML party member. We interview for membership, have an 8 book reading list prior to joining as well as a lengthy education program for members themselves. You shouldn't make accusations like this, it's very silly stuff. Which party are you with?
He is a fascist, just a really bad one. Successful fascists have at least some sort of plan, some sort of way to advance their reactionary thinking. Trump doesn't have that, so he's is very weak and ineffective considering the power he has access to.
He's not a fascist, not the palingenetic ultranationalist kind anyway which is what we're really talking about when we talk about the coming about of actual fascism. He's just a self absorbed bougie that uses whatever is going to benefit him at any one time to get ahead. He uses them. The only thing Trump gives a shit about is furthering himself.
lmao what do you think "Make America Great Again" means
If you don't see that as using the reactionaries I don't know what to tell you. You're absolutely fooling yourself if this man is an ideological fascist, he's not. He wears their aesthetic to manipulate them just like the "progressive" liberals wear socialism to manipulate the left. This conversation works in reverse for every single socdem claiming to want a revolution with smallprint.
He doesn't need to be a true believer to create a movement full of them.
He hasn't created a fascist movement though. The fascists were there before him, and they'll be there after him, but they haven't been bolstered by him. The smart ones with real ideological understand and beliefs are even vocally stating they want to get away from him because they see him as harmful and preventing their growth now, see: Richard Spencer.
What he has created is a Trump movement. Conflating every Trump supporter with the people that are willing to go out into the streets and die for a national rebirth is nonsensical though. They're not. They're pampered disorganised fools with zero sense of any ideology at all. Without Trump and without any movement infrastructure at all what happens to them post-Trump is completely up in the air. This is why Q is the relevant threat.
The way I see it, he is a fascist follower with no leader. But he's also president, which makes things weird. Maybe you can't really consider him a fascist at that point, but he's definitely something like a fascist.
redditors care more about taxonomy than actually having solidarity with the working class, this is what happens when middle class nerds LARP as communists
Biden is a career fascist, he's the sprinter