Vote.
Real shit, I listened to Biden's relatively recent speech in Kenosha, and it was okay. Lots of stuff about mental health reform, drug rehabilitation, and similar criminal justice related stuff I genuinely didn't expect to hear from him. If his past didn't make it obvious that he's lying out his ass, a significant amount of his platform is actually good. I don't doubt that there are a decent chunk of people taking his word at face value that didn't care for those "antifa rioters" in the first place.
If trump came out and gave the same speech would everyone just accept it?
He's had a lot of success saying things people want and then taking credit whether he follows through or not.
I feel like if there were to be a malleable president, it'd be someone like Biden whose brain is essentially clay. Possibly the administration he will be the figurehead of will be swayable.
Obviously they're still enemies. I'm thinking that it may be more possible to bend a Biden administration toward some sort of reforms via mass organized protests than an explicitly hostile Trump admin. Democrats have to symbolically align themselves with progressive values whereas Republicans have no such baggage. I think it's potentially exploitable. Maybe not.
I'm thinking more along the lines of what a mass organized protest movement could accomplish. Trump admin would be openly hostile. At least the Dems will have to symbolically align themselves with "progressive" ideals. I'm thinking it's more possible to bend a Dem administration than a Republican
I'm thinking that even though it's incredible unlikely, and you're right that their true beliefs and actions are antithetical to progressive values, the Dems are at least symbolically tethered to a progressive image that I think leads to the possibility of the party being bent through external forces such as an organized left. I see no such possibility from a Republican administration. This is purely a take about the possibility of reform, and I do realize that it's still incredibly unlikely under a Biden admin for anything positive to happen. I think it's just slightly more likely than under a Republican one.
The only way he's harm reduction is that he'd lazily stroll towards fascism while Trump would keep sprinting towards it. The left is not anywhere close to organized enough to deal with full-tilt fascism, so arguing that we should prefer the candidate who will at least give us a little more time to get organized has some merit.
Trump is not bringing about fascism though. They have no movement and he's incompetent. He's bringing about a shitter time for everyone but he's not making fascism happen and he's not helping turn liberals into fascists -- he's doing the opposite.
The left needs to not get caught up in this nonsense liberal shit that Trump is an actual fascist or bringing about fascism. Only the libs actually believe that.
They have no movement
90% + support among Republicans (for years straight, too), tons of support among cops, and a growing number of people who are willing to take advantage of cops' indifference to go beat up people on the streets. That's a movement.
he’s incompetent
He's incompetent at many things, but he's extremely competent at whipping his supporters into a frenzy and getting them to believe whatever he wants them to believe. Likewise, he's extremely competent at soldiering through the type of political landmines that would take out most other politicians.
he’s not helping turn liberals into fascists – he’s doing the opposite
The vast majority of libs aren't anti-fascist so much as they're anti-Trump. They had no problem with all the bad shit Trump is doing back when Obama did it, just like all the libs up in arms about election interference completely ignored Democrats rigging their 2016 and 2020 primaries.
You are conflating liberals with fascists and turning everything into a giant fucking boogieman that isn't there. The fascists can't even get more than 50 people to show up to anything in the streets. They're in complete demoralisation in all their communities right now as they're quickly realising shooting at the left results in getting shot back and hasn't put a single dent in leftist infrastructure or turnout. They are a larp. It's meme fascism with no real bite.
This libertarian fascism "movement" you claim to exist simply does not. You can't have a fascist movement without infrastructure, without youth training programs, with a collective ideological belief, without actual ideological education and experience building to create a real fighting force. They have NOTHING. Nada. Stop building a boogieman that isn't fucking there.
They do not have anything to bring about a rebirth. There is no pathway to fascism whatsoever on their existing pathetic attempt at a movement. They don't even have a tiny pathetic fraction of the organisational power that movements occurring in Europe currently have that are centralised with strong figures, proper programs, youth wings and real actual ideology.
You are conflating many many different groups into one boogieman. Stop it. Stop scaring yourself with this made up enemy and look at what they actually have.
I agree that Trump can certainly be portrayed as a real overblown bogeyman. But reading your comment in full makes me feel like we've been living in different United States from each other for the past four years.
The biggest event the fascists have ever had was Charlottesville and it took them months and months of organisation and mobilisation to achieve. It was the potential start of real centralised european style movement building for them. Then some guy ran over a bunch of people, killed their entire image and put an end to it as soon as it began. They have been utterly incapable of mobilising much since.
Compare it to the left. Infrastructure to actually mobilise thousands of people when necessary. The ability to actually get people to show up.
A handful of fascists showing up and looking mean with guns in opposition.
Go visit their communities. They're extremely demoralised right now because they see the left, see its ability to mobilise, see its infrastructure and organisers, and they have no fucking idea how to oppose it. They're scared and sad and only a tiny TINY percent of them are actually willing to die for their ideology. The rest are noise machines and online memeing with no real desire to do anything at all in the streets. Watch any interviews with even the militia chuds that have shown up to things. They don't want to get shot. They enjoy their militia stuff but they're not down for a war AT ALL.
Don't get me wrong, there's a few groups that are legit dangerous, Proud Boys etc. But they're fucking tiny and nobody should be blowing this up into some enormous boogieman. Look at things in individuality. Especially given the anarcho-fascist construction of their useless movement.
The real threat from them right now is a potential pivot into becoming a cult movement through Q. Then they would centrally organise through a form of proto-religious zealotry and Q "sermons".
You can’t have a fascist movement without infrastructure, without youth training programs, with a collective ideological belief, without actual ideological education and experience building to create a real fighting force.
- Infrastructure: lol how about the Republican Party (again, 90%+ support for Trump, which has held consistent for years), multiple branches of the federal government, cops, plus all of the right-wing crank organizations that have been lurking below the surface of all of the above for decades?
- Youth training programs: all of the above do this; the Kenosha murderer was in some junior cop program.
- Collective ideological belief: there are countless right-wing think tanks that have spent decades priming the pump for fascism, to say nothing of the past century of anti-communism as an unquestionable axiom of American political life.
- Actual ideological education: the Federalist Society, a cornucopia of College Republican groups, Prager U and the YouTube grifters, all the book companies that published volumes of Ann Coulter-style drivel, the most popular talk radio program in the country, the most popular cable news network in the country, the largest firearm owner association in the country, and on, and on, and on, and on -- and don't forget all the lib outlets that will carry water for fascism even if they won't openly cheerlead it.
- Experience building a real fighting force: how many cops and vets are chuds?
You have a few good observations, but holy fucking shit you're not even in the right galaxy on any of this.
Well I guess we disagree then. Personally I think you're being ridiculous and that you don't seem to understand the difference between conservatives and the actual ideological followers of fascism. They are not the same thing.
This is what happens when people call every single thing on the spectrum of fucky authoritarians fascism itself, it confuses people in such a way that they can't tell the fucking difference between the people that want gas chambers and half the bourgeoisie class killed vs the right wing of the bourgeoisie itself.
Palingenetic ultranationalism is a theory concerning generic fascism formulated by British political theorist Roger Griffin. The key element of this theory is the belief that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of revolution in order to achieve a "national rebirth"—palingenesis. Griffin argues that the unique synthesis of palingenesis and ultranationalism differentiates fascism from para-fascism and other authoritarian nationalist ideologies.
TL;DR: "Make America Great Again." And while Trump might just say it because it makes the chuds cheer him on, the people cheering actually believe it. And no, they don't need to be some fanatic ready to kill and die for the cause to be fascists -- they just need to support a few people who are like that and then "I'm just doing my job" the rest of the way.
the people that want gas chambers
They already uncritically support every genocidal war we've fought or are fighting, they already support the concentration camps we're running, they already support the domestic police state we've built, and they're already been primed (via white supremacy) to view all sorts of people as subhuman -- what makes you so sure they'd balk at gas chambers?
Hmmm. Well we're going to find out I suppose! Our disagreement on the topic won't be changing the outcome.
when people call every single thing on the spectrum of fucky authoritarians fascism itself, it confuses people
read Marx liberals
Could you please give me a few of your theoretical underpinnings?
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Which books and theories from them do you use for your analysis?
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Which framework of fascism do you use?
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Do you have a strong differentiation between authoritarianism, jingoism and fascism?
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Was Spain under Franco Fascist from your point of view?
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What is your empirical and cultural data for the analysis of the Fascists, Right wing movements, the Republican party and Trump(-ism)?
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Do you think even though Fascism is the wrong term for Trump and his followers, that whatever term you would chose, is a an existential danger for the people / the left? In the sense of more dangerous structurally than pure bourgi, partially neolib actors in the political spectrum like Joe Biden / Mitch McConnel?
I've been an ML party member for a few years, formerly anarchist of 20 years. I'm not doing all of this at 9am in the morning though lmao.
I'll hit that last bullet since it doesn't require me going digging or spending a lot of time -- Yes and no. Fascist in the casual use in the same way we all call cops fascist? Yes. Fascist in the sense that we're going to have institutional policy from the top down to murder people for their ideology or race under him? No. Now, don't get me wrong on that last point, people will die to police, prison, and so on but I don't think it is going to be organisational policy to remove the left from existence. All of those same deaths and problems will happen under Biden too.
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You are conflating liberals with fascists and turning everything into a giant fucking boogieman that isn’t there. The fascists can’t even get more than 50 people to show up to anything in the streets.
lol you've never read a word of Marx and think anyone should care about your illiterate bullshit. Try learning the actual Marxist definition of fascism
I'm an ML party member. We interview for membership, have an 8 book reading list prior to joining as well as a lengthy education program for members themselves. You shouldn't make accusations like this, it's very silly stuff. Which party are you with?
He is a fascist, just a really bad one. Successful fascists have at least some sort of plan, some sort of way to advance their reactionary thinking. Trump doesn't have that, so he's is very weak and ineffective considering the power he has access to.
He's not a fascist, not the palingenetic ultranationalist kind anyway which is what we're really talking about when we talk about the coming about of actual fascism. He's just a self absorbed bougie that uses whatever is going to benefit him at any one time to get ahead. He uses them. The only thing Trump gives a shit about is furthering himself.
He’s not a fascist, not the palingenetic ultranationalist kind anyway
lmao what do you think "Make America Great Again" means
If you don't see that as using the reactionaries I don't know what to tell you. You're absolutely fooling yourself if this man is an ideological fascist, he's not. He wears their aesthetic to manipulate them just like the "progressive" liberals wear socialism to manipulate the left. This conversation works in reverse for every single socdem claiming to want a revolution with smallprint.
You’re absolutely fooling yourself if this man is an ideological fascist, he’s not.
He doesn't need to be a true believer to create a movement full of them.
He hasn't created a fascist movement though. The fascists were there before him, and they'll be there after him, but they haven't been bolstered by him. The smart ones with real ideological understand and beliefs are even vocally stating they want to get away from him because they see him as harmful and preventing their growth now, see: Richard Spencer.
What he has created is a Trump movement. Conflating every Trump supporter with the people that are willing to go out into the streets and die for a national rebirth is nonsensical though. They're not. They're pampered disorganised fools with zero sense of any ideology at all. Without Trump and without any movement infrastructure at all what happens to them post-Trump is completely up in the air. This is why Q is the relevant threat.
The way I see it, he is a fascist follower with no leader. But he's also president, which makes things weird. Maybe you can't really consider him a fascist at that point, but he's definitely something like a fascist.
He’s not a fascist, ...He’s just a self absorbed bougie
redditors care more about taxonomy than actually having solidarity with the working class, this is what happens when middle class nerds LARP as communists
he’d lazily stroll towards fascism while Trump would keep sprinting towards it
Biden is a career fascist, he's the sprinter
It's harm reduction in that Trump will likely be worse, but it's definitely two roads to fascism.
Liberals aren’t actually against fascism, they’re against incivility.
Biden is harm reduction when the opposition is Trump, and only then.
Biden is not the no-harm candidate, far from it, he sucks folks.
But our only choices right now are a guy who enjoys finding ways to use the government for fascism and a guy who's bumbling stupid brain gave the first guy the tools he needs to do it.
This "all violence is bad" nonsense is so frustrating. YOUR ADMINISTRATION DOUBLE TAPS FIRST RESPONDERS
I feel like a Biden administration will start locking up leftists to show they're tough on extremism or something. Maybe not directly, because it's not a good look, but Ted Cruz will make a big fuss and they'll pretend they're having their hand forced. Maybe I'm in too much of a doomer mood, but I feel regardless of what happens USA is on a path to fascism right now.
Sadly, plenty of self-proclaimed "leftists" are saying exactly that
You'll all submit to neo-fascist senility and you'll like it!
The democrat's version of "polite" ethnic cleansing where they pass rezoning ordinances, neighborhood revitalization projects, and build brewries is a lot more effective than cracking heads in removing the undesirables e.g. minorities and the poor.
example no. 206 that joe biden explicitly doesnt want my vote, so libs piss off thanks
It's harm reduction as in you die within the next 4 years of a trump second term. Or die after 4 years during Trump Jr's first term
Because the alternative candidate literally wants to make being antifa illegal.
He's already got DHS gestapo and ICE concentration camps. Let's not allow Trump to keep checking off Hitler boxes.
Because the alternative candidate literally wants to make being antifa illegal
Biden says that anarchists must be prosecuted
Trump is actively prosecuting them right now and giving them insanely long multi-decade prison sentences. I still haven't heard anyone make a case that Biden is worse than Trump, or that we will be better off under Trump than under Biden. Nobody is asking anybody to like Joe Biden, in fact, I hope everyone fucking hates Joe Biden. I hope his inauguration speech is drowned out from booing. I hope I get to cyberbully every one of the 12 fans he actually has on the internet every single day for the next 4 years. I cannot wait to shit on Democrats when they don't have Trump to hide behind anymore. I thoroughly plan to be as mean as possible to Biden and the Dems, but I can only effectively do that if Biden is the shitty president, otherwise they will just keep hiding behind Trump and shitlibs will keep remembering Obama like he was jesus and blaming 2020 on Bernie and BLM.
Someone make a case to me that Trump somehow means less harm than Biden, otherwise I don't give a shit about feeling bad that our choices are shit. They are what they are by now, wallowing in how shit Biden is just wastes time and energy when we cannot afford to do that. The gears of history are moving and they are moving swiftly towards fascism in the USA. This shit is serious.
Biden just said he'd charged Antifa, it's what the thread is about lmao
Yes dude, I fucking LOATHE Democrats, but we are slowly kicking them out. Look at the gains the left has made recently; AOC, Jamaal Bowman, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Cori Bush, and recently re-assassinated Joe Kennedy. We are making progress and kicking out the old guard. It's slow and boring and takes a fuckton of money and energy to do, but we are doing it.
If we get Trump again, this motherfucker is wild. This guy is using DHS like Gestapo. We have established and normalized concentration camps. We have leftists and fascists dueling it out in the streets. This feels extremely familiar and, with the exception of the Russian Revolution, it almost always ends in brutal fascism. Biden is a fascist enabler, but he is too stupid and cowardly to actually be a fascist. That's REAL NOT GOOD to have that guy as your president. The only possible worse person to have as president, would be an actual fascist like Trump. We are faced with two horrible choices, one puts all of us in camps, the other might send some of us to prison. It's fucking dogshit, but it's what we have to deal with.
What's the alternative besides getting the fuck out of the country and giving up?
Edit: Nice no reply, super constructive and serious convo, guys.
Biden is a fascist enabler, but he is too stupid and cowardly to actually be a fascist
read Marx libs
The idea that DHS or border camps are operating any different under Trump than it did Obama makes you a lib
They were temporary Obama the administration to deal with unaccompanied minors who showed up at the border. They were held in the camps for at most 2 weeks while they were processed and then the camps were closed down.
They are not the same camps Trump has now made permanent. Fuck you guys for making me defend Biden just because you keep stupidly saying Trump and Biden are the exact same.
There were permanent facilities funded in 2015 under Obama. It was going in the same direction.
https://archive.fo/BnOW7
Does it change the fact that they were used differently for different goals? And that Obama's was not intentionally meant to be as cruel as possible and broadcast on the media to serve as a warning to all immigrants?
"It was going the same direction" is a cop out.
You guys are ruining my dreams of bullying liberals for the next 4 years. Instead I'm going to have to spend them explaining why BLM didn't cause Biden to lose. Fuck this shit.
My point is that you're focusing too much on "orange man bad" like some lib. Trump is a distraction from a systemic problem.
Your point is I'm accurately making a qualitative judgement between Trump and Obama where Trump comes out worse and it makes me irrational to make a case for the slightly less bad version?
