Here is September 19th's update! TLDR? Here's the summary.
Here is September 20th's update! TLDR? Here's the summary.
Here is September 21st's update! TLDR? Here's the summary.
Here is September 23rd's update! TLDR? Here's the summary.
Here is September 24th's update! TLDR? Here's the summary.
Links and Stuff
Examples of Ukrainian Nazis and fascists, for the “buh Zeleski is a jew?!?!” people.
Examples of racism/euro-centrism during the Russia-Ukraine conflict
Add to the above list if you can, thank you.
Resources For Understanding The War Beyond The Bulletins
Defense Politics Asia's youtube channel and their map, who is an independent youtuber with a mostly neutral viewpoint.
Moon of Alabama, which tends to have good analysis (though also a couple bad takes here and there)
Understanding War and the Saker: neo-conservative sources but their reporting of the war (so far) seems to line up with reality better than most liberal sources.
Alexander Mercouris, who does daily videos on the conflict and, unlike most western analysts, has some degree of understanding on how war works. He is a reactionary, however.
On the ground: Patrick Lancaster, an independent journalist reporting in the Ukrainian warzones.
Unedited videos of Russian/Ukrainian press conferences and speeches.
Telegram Channels
Again, CW for anti-LGBT and racist, sexist, etc speech, as well as combat footage.
Pro-Russian
https://t.me/aleksandr_skif ~ DPR's former Defense Minister and Colonel in the DPR's forces. Russian language.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad ~ Gleb Bazov, banned from Twitter, referenced pretty heavily in what remains of pro-Russian Twitter.
https://t.me/asbmil ~ ASB Military News, banned from Twitter.
https://t.me/s/levigodman ~ Does daily update posts.
https://t.me/patricklancasternewstoday Patrick Lancaster - crowd-funded U.S journalist, mostly pro-Russian, works on the ground near warzones to report news and talk to locals.
https://t.me/riafan_everywhere ~ Think it's a government news org or Federal News Agency? Russian language.
https://t.me/gonzowarr ~ Front news coverage. Russian langauge.
https://t.me/rybar ~ Russian language.
https://t.me/epoddubny ~ Russian language.
https://t.me/boris_rozhin ~ Russian language.
https://t.me/mod_russia_en ~ Russian Ministry of Defense.
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses ~ Pro-Russian, documents abuses that Ukraine commits.
Pro-Ukraine
With the entire western media sphere being overwhelming pro-Ukraine already, you shouldn't really need more, but:
https://discord.gg/projectowl ~ Pro-Ukrainian OSINT Discord.
https://t.me/ice_inii ~ Alleged Ukrainian account with a rather cynical take on the entire thing.
Last week's discussion post.
But isn’t that an inevitability? As long as the American/Western Empire exists, its media and intelligence agencies will latch on to any instability within opposing nations, regardless if it’s manufactured or organic. Can we really compel actual Iranians to sit tight and wait for the West to fall (whenever that’ll finally happen) before doing any activism just because we critically support their current leadership?
Even if they jumped the gun on making assumptions about this women’s death, it seems more than reasonable to protest against religious fundamentalism in your government. I mean it’s more understandable than the HK rioters, who were pretty openly stooges of Western fascists. I’ll never openly ally myself with all the NGO’s and American politicians that are trying to take advantage of the situation, but I’m not sure I can explicitly oppose people trying to improve their day-to-day lives.
It’s unfortunate, but I feel like the only thing I can do is to hope this movement doesn’t completely throw itself to the West, as futile as that might be. Maybe the impact of US sanctions might create a more independent opposition, but that’s probably wishful thinking. I’m just not sure this community’s response should be to demonize the on-the-ground protestors, and I don’t think that makes me a radlib
This is what people said at the start of the Egyptian, Syrian, Libyan Arab springs. It’s what they said during the color revolutions in Belarus and Kazakhstan. When the pressure of the imperialists and colonizers are besieging you, you can’t give in.
But what does that mean for actual Iranians? Should the women there just shut up and keep wearing the hijab as they’re forced to? It’s not like these religious laws are a necessary ingredient for resisting the West (China sure as hell doesn’t have them). Why can’t we want Khamenei to be more like Xi? I mean I’m a party to leftist infighting as much as the next Hexbear user, so why is that off-limits for other people? (not saying all the protesters are leftists obv)
It’s not the Iranian women in this protest. It’s fascist militants killing people. A peaceful, reformist protest I would support. Not this color revolution chaos that brings instability, violence, jihadism to the most relatively progressive force in the Middle East
No, it’s people rioting against police brutality. If this happened in any western country you would be cheering right now, but at this point it’s clear that many leftists view Iranians not as people but pawns in a game of geopolitics.
A communist calling for peaceful reformist protests against police brutality, fucking shameful.
the case of "police brutality" that sparked it was fake though
of course, fuck the west. Iran is a relatively progressive, anti-imperialist force and an ally to the AES bloc and this is obviously not good faith protesters but violent people seeking regime change. Perhaps I need to remind you of the concepts of critical support, imperialism is the primary contraction & your duty to be a revolutionary defeatist and avoid imperialist intrigue.
The cause doesn't matter. Protests don't work like that. If we found out today that George Floyd died of other causes the protests would still be just as valid, because they are about a larger, systemic issue.
If the Iranian people seek regime change then that is their business. What you really mean is that Iran's current government is useful in the larger struggle against US Imperialism and that means that no matter what they inflict on the Iranian working class they should know their place and suffer through it. Only westerners are allowed the privilege of self-determination.
It's not your business westoid. keep your imperialist chauvinist nose out of it
Exactly, it's theirs. Glad you agree.
Yes so when Iran's government crushes this you will respect their sovereignty and keep to yourself right?
Iranians have self determination right now, they are one of the only nations in the world who do. What these protesters and compradors want is an elimination of Iranian sovereignty and submission to the global NATO caliphate
I support the Iranian working class, not the bourgeois state. It's called being a communist.
Here is a good resource, in case you're unfamiliar with the term: https://www.marxists.org Start with Marx and work your way up.
I support anti-imperialist nations allied with AES against imperialist coups, just like in Syria, Belarus and Kazakshtan
Start with Lenin
For the Socialist of another country cannot expose the government and bourgeoisie of a country at war with “his own” nation, and not only because he does not know that country’s language, history, specific features, etc., but also because such exposure is part of imperialist intrigue, and not an internationalist duty.
He is not an internationalist who vows and swears by internationalism. Only he is an internationalist who in a really internationalist way combats his own bourgeoisie, his own social-chauvinists, his own Kautskyites.
(b) In every country the Socialist [me] must above all emphasise in all his propaganda the need to distrust not only every political phrase of his own government, but also every political phrase of his own social-chauvinists [this is you, don't laugh!], who in reality serve that government [anglo-american empire].
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/25.htm
I agree completely, which is why I don’t support sanctions or any form of intervention by western states. I also don’t publicly repeat the things I believe because I know liberals will interpret them in an imperialist framework.
But, that doesn’t mean I have to stray from my principles as a communist and pretend that any protest in such a country is illegitimate. The government of Iran is oppressive like in any other capitalist state and I won’t deny the Iranian working class their right to fight against it. Nor will I pretend that the state is anything but that.
This is a communist forum full of other communists. Nothing I say here will embolden Imperialist policy in any way, so no harm can come of me saying I support the protests.
this isn't a working class protest and if it goes on you will unfortunately see that I'm right. we've been around the block too many times and seen this too many times before.
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These reforms are not directly linked to or caused by the riots, which were cracked down on sharply. As I hope Iran does here. If the riots in Kazakhstan were allowed to fester, it would become a reactionary fascist state like Libya. Xi and Kim Jong Un understand this, but for some reason western leftists cannot
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The Iranian working class are not the ones rioting, which is why this will fail like all the other color revolution attempts
This may come as a shock to our resident west-heads but the Iranian gov enjoys a large amount of buy-in with its working class despite the unpopularity of certain laws
The Iranian working class arent stupid they dont want to overthrow their government and end up like their neighbors, so ironically you kinda kneecaped and muted your own point there
There really is no point in this discussion. I have yet to see a single protest in a western-opposed country that wasn’t labelled a Color Revolution by misguided MLs so that label already lost its meaning long ago. I am also eagerly waiting to just once hear the critical part of critical support and that hasn’t happened either.
I have a lot of family in Iran and am well aware of the internal situation. If the Iranian working class do not want to overthrow their government then that is fine and at no point did I say otherwise.
Cuba, Bolivia, Hong Kong, Iran, Kazakhstan, Libya, Syria, Belarus all open and proven examples of protest "movements" being completely funded and backed by western private/governmental fronts, the MLs use the label color revolution because it accurately describes the actual existing reality of a global hegemony enforced by a single superpower and its allies, this shit ain't a conspiracy bruh it's all out in the open ML's literally have the receipts in many cases
Also you don't just get to demand everyone else have the perfect take that completely satisfies every removedling doubt you have, if you disagree with the ML model then you're obligated to present an alternative analysis of geopolitics that explains the current state of things
Of course when anti-MLs try to do that they inevitably end up having to deal with those ML receipts one way or another, and it usually ends up with them making an incoherent garbled mess of an argument that gets basic facts wrong; like the fact the Iranian working class is one of the government's strongest power blocks....shit that even a US think tank would admit to
You claim to have family there and know the internal situation but basic stuff like that just slipped your mind? Kinda susssy
I am well aware that the US is constantly interfering in everything that happens in those countries. That is not news.
But it is possible for there to be legitimate anti-government protests in those countries. And no matter what, the US will try to steer/ agitate and otherwise use that movement for their benefit. Because that’s what they always do. But that doesn’t invalidate the protests itself. Because if it did, then logically there can never be a legitimate protest in those countries.
In the end it has no real bearing on anything since all we can do is oppose sanctions and interventions from our own countries and that is what I am already doing so my exact feelings for those states don’t really matter.
But I am not a native speaker and to be honest these long discussions are incredibly exhaustingly if you can’t express yourself properly. So I’m okay with leaving it there.
Do you realize how insane this proposition sounds to people on the ground in those countries? I'm sorry but the minute it becomes widespread knowledge the protest movements are funded and backed by hostile outside powers they are immediately invalidated to the vast majority of the population, especially the working class, again they are not stupid, they are not dupes who are tricked easily, countries who oppose US hegemony tend to be countries under siege, this understandably results in alot of nationalism so movements led by rich Westernized exile don't get much buy-in from the population who are living under western sanctions
Legitimate protests do take place, difference is they're not reported by western media corporations
Name one time the MLs were wrong and it wasn’t a color revolution. We have been consistently correct about these things, and eventually the radlibs come around and admit it (like in Syria, Libya, Hong Kong, Belarus, Cuba, Bolivia, etc where each and every time radlibs say it’s a real “working class” revolution and get proven wrong by the tankie hardliners as time goes on, and those goldfishbrained radlibs move onto the next op without any pattern recognition)
We currently have a war right now because of a color revolution but people still somehow have doubt about it. It's funny since america are sanctioning Iran to shite right now, but most international iranian not protest against that, but riot and causing chaos over fake news.
This is the same energy that said we should have supported the Jan 6 protests because a cop shot one of them, complete bullshit both the MEK scum and the Iranian pigs can get bent
jan 6 was not instigated by police brutality, silly comparison
Neither are the current Iranian protests, neither are organic, both were backed by big money and both were defined by a police response, or to be more accurate defined by a certain violent response towards the police, so the comparison stands
Either was this lol 😂
so the argument is that absolutely every protester is an agent of the West and that the whole thing’s astro-turfed? that not a single Iranian woman truly opposes the morality laws and that none of them have ever wanted to organize? how will we know when that’s not the case? is it even possible for a protest in Iran to not be a color revolution?
I think the issue is that every significant protest in 'bad authoritarian country that the West hates' was either started by intelligence agencies (the relatively recent protests in Cuba come to mind, the ones before the much more massive rallies in support of the Cuban government) or will be co-opted by them to suite their goals.
So in a sense, the answer to that question is "no", but the answer to:
is also "no". Like, the point being made isn't that Iranians don't have very legitimate grievances with their government and want some changes - of course they do, virtually every person on earth wants their own government to do things better, Iranians are no different - it's just to say that there's a ton of nuance that we have to have when talking about these governments and the protests they face as they oppose the global hegemony that historically has, and currently can and will destabilize them internally by any means necessary.
Not quite. The west will only latch onto instability when it serves their purposes. They don't just do revolutions any time its easy. The Arab spring was timed to get the US out of the "great recession." It allowed them to make some quick money off stolen oil and distract USAians from the fallout of the recession domestically. I remember Occupy protestors talking about Libya and Tunisia like they were a good thing.
when would destabilizing Iran not serve Western purposes? obviously there is some kind of operational tempo wrt intervention/spook shit that waxes and wanes, but i fail to see why the US would simply pass up an opportunity for chaos. literally any protest activity in Iran can be co-opted by Western interests, which tbf is something to be wary about.
but i don’t think the appropriate response is to bar all Iranians from ever protesting or doing activism. the existence of bad-faith actors doesn’t give Iranians some moral obligation to comply with unjust laws. i just don’t feel it’s at all reasonable to tell people living outside the West to just hunker down and take the flak until communism wins.