It is perfectly valid to criticise her for working with a sexpest serial self-admitted abuser, chaser and trans hating shit bag neoliberal grifter if she is criticising others of working with those with questionable lgbt party policies. The fact that she is a hypocrite highlights that she doesn't apply this moral belief in a principled way, and that brings to question whether there are alternative motives.
I am not the same person. Don't avoid my point. I genuinely don't care how you word it. She's FRIENDS with Vaush, you're right, that's actually worse than simply working with people you don't align with. I was in fact being more charitable with my phrasing compared to the other user.
I don't really care. This is a pretty obvious conjuration of the old-fashioned left-on-left circlejerk and I'm not going to assist you in falling for an op designed to undermine recent successes.
The op here is that the Greek left are literally the strongest left in all of fucking Europe going into a period of immense energy crisis, shutdown of industries and literal power rationing. A shitty internet forum disappearing pales in comparison to the importance the actual offline left holds in europe at this moment in time.
I do not agree with their line but ffs this is on par with the shits who attack latin american parties for not having a perfect party line on lgbt issues at highly critical moments in time. This shit ALWAYS comes from white people in northern america.
It is unfortunate that my rights are less important to you than a party that has no chance of accomplishing anything under current conditions and is just playing to reactionaries. I will never criticize anyone for fighting against transphobia wherever it is found. If it exists within the left, it must be purged. Period.
Nor will I be your convenient fucking sheep to the slaughter. Work with transphobes on your own. It would be quite concistent with much of what I see here.
Thank you for the reminder that cis people can never be trusted.
Kollontai your rights are my rights we are not different on this issue and it's kind of shitty that you've just assumed we are. Nor am I trying to slaughter you. I'm trying to get through to you that you are not being strategic whatsoever, you are not considering the material conditions, and you are demanding perfection at absolutely the wrong moment in time.
With all due respect, subjugating trans rights and dignity to silence all criticism of a party that has no chance of accomplishing a meaningful break from capitalism under current conditions is tremendously shitty. I am not demanding perfection, I am refusing to serve people who refuse to see me as human and worthy of respect. I will never consider it appropriate to ask any person to be silent about organizations or powerful individuals who do not treat them as human beings or who subject them to bigotry.
If by 'your rights are my rights' you mean that you are also trans, then I apologize, but I want you to know that you don't have to accept being treated like this. We are allowed to demand our own dignity. Those who seek to stop us because we are inconvenient will always find new reasons to deem us inconvenient.
No one's saying don't criticise. All that's being said is that it is the wrong ass time when half of europe is on the knife edge of the conditions for uprisings and they most of all are poised to take advantage of it.
This shit stinks of the same nerds on reddit that tried to claim we should not support Petro and his party because they are anti-lgbt. They are objectively worth our support despite the fact that they have a policy we would like to see changed because literally everything else about them is strategically beneficial to us and WHAT WE WANT, we can change that shit more easily with the people being comfortable than with the people being uncomfortable.
I don't accept "being treated like this" I'm just significantly more in-tune with recognising who and what is strategically the most beneficial thing to do in this scenario and that's to shut the fuck up and work with the left, the WHOLE left, whoever the fuck they are and whatever brainworms they have that aren't ideal, because the alternative right now is economic decay into fascism. We literally have a fascist party in Italy, next fucking door to Greece. "At least I didn't support those anti-lgbt commies!" is not the right thing to be shouting while they kart us into the gas chambers.
Observe the material conditions that currently exist and ask yourself what the most strategically beneficial thing to be doing for lgbt people is. I assure you it's not splitting the left over us at a crucial time of massive crisis. Could things be better? Fuck yeah they could. But they're NOT. We have the existing left, with it's issues, and we have to make the best of it.
You can bet your damn ass I was fighting with CPGB and CPB in the uk over this shit 1 year ago and for years before that. And I will probably be fighting with them when the crises have past and the moment is correct for it. But now? Fuck no. Now is an absolutely crucial time for people to close ranks and unite.
I do not believe that the Communist Party of Greece is in a position that demands its protection. I think that their success will ultimately be subject to what happens in Germany and France and, quite frankly, I do not think they have the general cache to be a functioning vanguard should shit pop off. Given that fact, I don't think the strategic situation is as you describe it. That said, even if it were I would not be silent, because I'm not calling for some melodramatic split. I'm calling for them to fix their shit and I'm calling on orgs that choose to partner with them not to silence people speaking up for their own dignity against unacceptable practices by titular comrades. The idea that explicit criticism is somehow going to ruin everything is just non-credible. Unless the Greek party are petty enough to screw things up over being criticized, I guess.
Moreover, I would encourage you to understand that these people will just as gladly let the fascists lead us to the gas chamber as all of the milieu of reactionaries they work with in advancing their bigoted agenda. They know who they stand with today on trans issues and they continue to willingly stand with them. They are not unaware that they are making common cause with fascists and other reactionaries. They are all one movement right now. They cannot be trusted.
Moreover, I would encourage you to understand that these people will just as gladly let the fascists lead us to the gas chamber as all of the milieu of reactionaries they work with in advancing their bigoted agenda. They know who they stand with today on trans issues and they continue to willingly stand with them. They are not unaware that they are making common cause with fascists and other reactionaries. They are all one movement right now. They cannot be trusted.
Nah. This is so far removed from the reality on the ground here that it resembles :fedposting:. Think I'm gonna logoff for the evening we're only gonna disagree and I'm not down for a screaming match with someone that thinks this.
They are not ignorant of the situation. They know who is stoking the panic and rage against us and they know what that panic is trying to achieve. I will not do them the disservice of pretending they are too stupid to understand who is served by transphobia.
Which instance of "not playing nice" are you talking about? Overthrowing them was the right decision without a question. They were going to collapse the country back into fascism because they couldn't adequately judge the conditions of the situation. There was an actual reason that the action in question mattered, it wasn't just petty bullshit that needs to touch grass.
No, I thought you meant Keffals and responded to the standard bigot trope the only appropriate way. Apologies for misunderstanding you. You might be able to understand why, under current conditions, it would be a sore subject for trans people.
all good, but it's fair - it should never be implied that trans people are sex offenders just because of their existence, and if my post wasn't clear enough to the point that it could be interpreted that I was implying that, then I should be clearer and more careful.
Not being combative here, it was a misunderstanding but i could have done better.
Vaush is a shit you will find absolutely no fucking friends of his here.
Vaush is a shit, but shitting out Destiny's talking points is fucking disgusting.
:PIGPOOPBALLS:
He DID call trans people subhuman. For fuck's sake.
I'm talking about using him to attack Keffals because the circular firing squad has decided it is her turn.
:meow-knife-trans:
It is perfectly valid to criticise her for working with a sexpest serial self-admitted abuser, chaser and trans hating shit bag neoliberal grifter if she is criticising others of working with those with questionable lgbt party policies. The fact that she is a hypocrite highlights that she doesn't apply this moral belief in a principled way, and that brings to question whether there are alternative motives.
We've gone from 'is friends with' to 'works with' seemlessly, have we? Convenient.
I am not the same person. Don't avoid my point. I genuinely don't care how you word it. She's FRIENDS with Vaush, you're right, that's actually worse than simply working with people you don't align with. I was in fact being more charitable with my phrasing compared to the other user.
I don't really care. This is a pretty obvious conjuration of the old-fashioned left-on-left circlejerk and I'm not going to assist you in falling for an op designed to undermine recent successes.
The op here is that the Greek left are literally the strongest left in all of fucking Europe going into a period of immense energy crisis, shutdown of industries and literal power rationing. A shitty internet forum disappearing pales in comparison to the importance the actual offline left holds in europe at this moment in time.
I do not agree with their line but ffs this is on par with the shits who attack latin american parties for not having a perfect party line on lgbt issues at highly critical moments in time. This shit ALWAYS comes from white people in northern america.
It is unfortunate that my rights are less important to you than a party that has no chance of accomplishing anything under current conditions and is just playing to reactionaries. I will never criticize anyone for fighting against transphobia wherever it is found. If it exists within the left, it must be purged. Period.
Nor will I be your convenient fucking sheep to the slaughter. Work with transphobes on your own. It would be quite concistent with much of what I see here.
Thank you for the reminder that cis people can never be trusted.
Kollontai your rights are my rights we are not different on this issue and it's kind of shitty that you've just assumed we are. Nor am I trying to slaughter you. I'm trying to get through to you that you are not being strategic whatsoever, you are not considering the material conditions, and you are demanding perfection at absolutely the wrong moment in time.
With all due respect, subjugating trans rights and dignity to silence all criticism of a party that has no chance of accomplishing a meaningful break from capitalism under current conditions is tremendously shitty. I am not demanding perfection, I am refusing to serve people who refuse to see me as human and worthy of respect. I will never consider it appropriate to ask any person to be silent about organizations or powerful individuals who do not treat them as human beings or who subject them to bigotry.
If by 'your rights are my rights' you mean that you are also trans, then I apologize, but I want you to know that you don't have to accept being treated like this. We are allowed to demand our own dignity. Those who seek to stop us because we are inconvenient will always find new reasons to deem us inconvenient.
No one's saying don't criticise. All that's being said is that it is the wrong ass time when half of europe is on the knife edge of the conditions for uprisings and they most of all are poised to take advantage of it.
This shit stinks of the same nerds on reddit that tried to claim we should not support Petro and his party because they are anti-lgbt. They are objectively worth our support despite the fact that they have a policy we would like to see changed because literally everything else about them is strategically beneficial to us and WHAT WE WANT, we can change that shit more easily with the people being comfortable than with the people being uncomfortable.
I don't accept "being treated like this" I'm just significantly more in-tune with recognising who and what is strategically the most beneficial thing to do in this scenario and that's to shut the fuck up and work with the left, the WHOLE left, whoever the fuck they are and whatever brainworms they have that aren't ideal, because the alternative right now is economic decay into fascism. We literally have a fascist party in Italy, next fucking door to Greece. "At least I didn't support those anti-lgbt commies!" is not the right thing to be shouting while they kart us into the gas chambers.
Observe the material conditions that currently exist and ask yourself what the most strategically beneficial thing to be doing for lgbt people is. I assure you it's not splitting the left over us at a crucial time of massive crisis. Could things be better? Fuck yeah they could. But they're NOT. We have the existing left, with it's issues, and we have to make the best of it.
You can bet your damn ass I was fighting with CPGB and CPB in the uk over this shit 1 year ago and for years before that. And I will probably be fighting with them when the crises have past and the moment is correct for it. But now? Fuck no. Now is an absolutely crucial time for people to close ranks and unite.
I do not believe that the Communist Party of Greece is in a position that demands its protection. I think that their success will ultimately be subject to what happens in Germany and France and, quite frankly, I do not think they have the general cache to be a functioning vanguard should shit pop off. Given that fact, I don't think the strategic situation is as you describe it. That said, even if it were I would not be silent, because I'm not calling for some melodramatic split. I'm calling for them to fix their shit and I'm calling on orgs that choose to partner with them not to silence people speaking up for their own dignity against unacceptable practices by titular comrades. The idea that explicit criticism is somehow going to ruin everything is just non-credible. Unless the Greek party are petty enough to screw things up over being criticized, I guess.
Moreover, I would encourage you to understand that these people will just as gladly let the fascists lead us to the gas chamber as all of the milieu of reactionaries they work with in advancing their bigoted agenda. They know who they stand with today on trans issues and they continue to willingly stand with them. They are not unaware that they are making common cause with fascists and other reactionaries. They are all one movement right now. They cannot be trusted.
Nah. This is so far removed from the reality on the ground here that it resembles :fedposting:. Think I'm gonna logoff for the evening we're only gonna disagree and I'm not down for a screaming match with someone that thinks this.
They are not ignorant of the situation. They know who is stoking the panic and rage against us and they know what that panic is trying to achieve. I will not do them the disservice of pretending they are too stupid to understand who is served by transphobia.
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Was the Bolsheviks not playing nice with the Mensheviks an instance of the "circular firing squad"
Which instance of "not playing nice" are you talking about? Overthrowing them was the right decision without a question. They were going to collapse the country back into fascism because they couldn't adequately judge the conditions of the situation. There was an actual reason that the action in question mattered, it wasn't just petty bullshit that needs to touch grass.
they're both paedophiles and no one here likes either of them
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are you disputing that both vaush and destiny are paedophiles?
No, I thought you meant Keffals and responded to the standard bigot trope the only appropriate way. Apologies for misunderstanding you. You might be able to understand why, under current conditions, it would be a sore subject for trans people.
aight, the convo seemed to be about vaush and destiny and people taking one or the other's line, but apologies for the confusion
No need to apologize. They have both engaged in unacceptable behavior with minors. I misunderstood you because of current context.
all good, but it's fair - it should never be implied that trans people are sex offenders just because of their existence, and if my post wasn't clear enough to the point that it could be interpreted that I was implying that, then I should be clearer and more careful.
Not being combative here, it was a misunderstanding but i could have done better.
I think it was less you than external context imposing meaning you didn't intend. Thank you for caring.