There are a few users on the site without pronouns now (other than "none/use name", I mean like there is no pronoun field at all)
Was considering writing a 
patch for this unless this is intended behavior now? I would have submitted a diff but I can't build lemmy on my system to test any changes :(
It seems like the patch would be pretty easy, there is already pronoun validation code it just needs to be applied when people try to update their username
This seems like a deviation from the path laid out for us by comrade TC69
What do you think?
It's a UI and a server smh, this isn't a store/restaurant with a front end and a back end
Oh wait....
Welcome to Hexbear, may I take your order? Would you like to try our world famous Posadist Hot Sauce?
Actually can I have the black mold vegan pizza? With an order of beans?
You ever think about how on a website the server is the back end, but at a restaurant the server is the front end?
No? Yeah me neither.
I guess it depends? You could think of the UI as the menu, then the server is your interface to the resources, and it's responsible for maintaining the integrity property that you only receive resources when authorized?
Cissies not being forced to pick pronouns is pure revisionism and needs to be adressed ASAP. If people have deliberately circumvented the pronoun selection, they should also get banned.
It's honestly kind of a defining feature of this place, and shouldn't be watered down.
I was there when it all happened, “revisionism” is absolutely the word for it. So many cissies trying to weasel out of just doing one little thing to support trans comrades here. 100% behind patching this.
The original proposal didn't have enough options. That's what caused most of the issues.
Sure there were some transphobes out there that lost their shit, but there were legitimate issues with the lack of choices when it was first proposed
I had a very strong impression many of the complaints came from concern trolling cis people and they weren't very convincing in hiding their transphobia. They particularly did not complain about a lack of neopronouns, although some complained about opsec reasons - which can be easily adressed by picking none / use name or another neutral option, or just lying - if you value opsec over validation of your gender identity, why would you need a site culture where he / him is the implied default?
If people weren't happy with the lack of neopronouns (which was, ofc, a legitimate concern), why would they oppose pronoun tags on principle instead of demanding them, but with more inclusive options? The majority of the criticism back then was thinly veiled transphobia, please don't try to legitimize that.
I had a very strong impression many of the complaints came from concern trolling cis people and they weren't very convincing in hiding their transphobia.
as a cis guy who was there, I agree. I remember being against mandatory pronoun selections just from my own perspective (I'd rather people just hit me with the they/them or implied neutral he/him or random she/her or whatever else they feel like than feel the need to check what I set it to) but I have come to understand the other perspectives. And, when I was against it, it was in the mildest "this isn't really a big deal" kind of way, I remember scrolling through the thread(s?) and just being like "what the fuck is wrong with these losers" lmao, the struggle session really baffled me at the time. it's a pronoun box, it isn't the end of the world
In hindsight, I understand that we had a pretty big core userbase of reactionary internet troll / bully types who liked dunking on liberals way more than they were interested in any kind of solidarity with their comrades. they understood enough about communism to know why the end goal is correct, but didn't really care about how a communist movement could or should be built. surface-level communists, i guess
and to conclude this ramble with some kind of point: I think that this struggle session and a couple others were necessary for the identity of the site and for its long-term health. it's good that a bunch of dumb nerds went full
over a lil fuckin ui element and got banned and we built a pretty strong community of people who were, for one reason or another, in agreement about the fact that those guys sucked and it's good they're goneby picking none / use name
That option was only introduced after quite a bit of argument. It was not an original option. I remember it not being an option.
ofc that should be an option, i'm friends with trans people irl that need this option because these people want to be adressed without third person pronouns, but to say that lack of options was the actual main concern in these struggle sessions is denying that we had a substantial number of transphobes from r/stupidpol in the community when we originally got kicked out of reddit, that they vocally opposed the trans inclusivity of this site, that we successfully purged them and that this was a good and important part of building the site culture.
I think a ban would be a bad idea, some users might be using alternative apps that don't present hexbear's vision clearly or other issues like they may not natively speak English or did it unintentionally. I'm very serious about the unintentional detail, there is a way to do it accidentally, I can explain how to any admins in private if necessary.
Yeahh, good point, some people might be using apps or something that don't add them to your username
I use a mobile app that doesn't support display names. I wish it did! Maybe we need to fork one and build our own.
Uphold TC69 thought, patch it and maybe set any missing to "none/use name"
if anyone has wound up with "joke" custom ones outside the previous settings, gulag
sorry all, seems like one of the lemmy updates we rebased on removed our pronoun validation on the backend. ill take a look at it pretty soon, 0.19.4 is coming out soon so ill be checking this again once we rebase on top of that.
I would be for the patch, if were soliciting the opinion of someone who doesn't know anything about web dev magick
Thankfully this is a problem easily solved with some regex
Same TBH. Sometimes I just go on regexr and put in data to see what I can come up with.
none/use name I never liked, I'd much rather it default to @Ho_Chi_Chungus@hexbear.net idea of Gangster Spongebob
we should be allowed custom pronouns after a lengthy vetting process and a test on "Trans Liberation"
I looked for five minutes under my profile for the pronoun selection screen until I found it in settings. Not very intuitive, would like pronouns to be available at account creation. Set the default pronoun to cis/gender because it would be funny.
I know there are clients like Jerboa, are those guaranteed to support custom data fields that instances may add? Might be something one of those is doing but it'll never be enforceable for federated users as things are currently.
In this case Hexbear's web UI actually just puts your pronouns in your username (display name is the Lemmy term). All that has to be done is enforce that there are pronouns in your selected username in the server code
There is a difference between Username and Display Name. You can't "change" your username and it has different character requirements and is used for authentication. Display Name can be changed at any time using the Default UI and can be what ever you want and is not used for authentication.
Hexbear replaces the text field for Display Name with the pronouns drop down. It then combines your username with your pronouns and saves it in your display name field.
If you have API access you can update your display name to whatever you want because the UI is what enforces the pronouns not the server (as you identified).
The display name is used externally by other instances so it needs to remain compatible for federation. That way pronouns are displayed for users on other instances.
I'm not really sure if you can add validation to the field without breaking external users display names.
It's doesn't seem so difficult to me, we just have to check if local users have valid pronouns (valid in the sense of it's in a list that can be checked by a computer lol, not ideal but yeah) in their requested display name when they try to use the
save_user_settingsapi. According to makotech222 elsewhere in the thread we actually used to have validation like this but the code got lost in an update
There was another user I saw called GayBot without pronouns but they deleted their acct today...
There might be more I don't remember
I saw GayBot comment that there was another vegan struggle session and got excited to post in the trenches
but I think that was a ruse cause I didnt see any threads about it anywhere. devastatingThere is/was a thread in vegan about how to handle leftists that aren’t. Non vegan hexbears got banned because the comm has a vegans only rule. Some got mad.
Hexbear had a problem with some stupidpol types in its earlier days. It's one of the reasons downvotes were removed and among other things TC69 led the purges and some of the education that set site culture in a more positive direction.
Hexbear had a problem with some stupidpol types in its earlier days
Wow no kidding
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Hard to imagine this now
It was not overt, it was backhanded stuff with downvoting and concern trolling about the addition pronouns and whether people should be forced to assign them. This went on for some time until TC69-thought established a total purge after peering into voting habits and discovering certain people were consistently downvoting the trans topics and acting in bad faith. There were wreckers among us.
@TransComrade69@hexbear.net , her comments are still there she wasn’t banned or anything, just moved on.
"What's wrong with not knowing how to adress people in a way that offers the absolute bare minimum of respect and avoids outright hate speech?"
You can avoid pronouns entirely and just use the person's name or refer to them as "that person over there" or "the poster you are replying to" etc., but it's a lot easier when pronouns are provided. Most languages have these things for a reason.
Cool that you have this view, but while the world is the way it is, having pronouns makes it easier over the internet
Gender neutral language simply doesn't have gender specific pronouns. It treats everyone the same, regardless of their gender identity. I don't see how that could be considered transphobic.
If anything it is cisphobic, as the default "they/them" (as in the example above) is used primarily by trans people, while the typically cis pronouns "he/him" and "she/her" are not used.
That definition of gender neutral is the exact one used to defend “theying” everyone despite their very visible pronouns.
They/them is not gender neutral.
Read Trans Liberation please.
They/them is absolutely gender neutral, as it can be used for any person, regardless of their gender. See? I did it in this sentence.
Take my example from before: "A person is walking down the street. I approach them, asking for their pronouns. They smile and tell me that's none of my business." This works, regardless of the person's gender identity.
Now use different pronouns: "A person is walking down the street. I approach him, asking for his pronouns. He smiles and tells me that's none of my business." This one only works if the person uses the pronouns he/him. (Btw, shouldn't pronouns be sets of 3 like "they/them/their", "he/him/his" or "she/her/her"?)
Gender neutral language isn't about not recognizing peoples' genders, its about omitting irrelevant information. Having gender specific pronouns draws attention to the genders of the people referred to, even if the point of the sentence is not about gender. At some point during the development of the English language, the consensus emerged that it is important to always know/mention the gender identity of everyone involved.
This is an arbitrary selection of a subset of a person's identity however. For example, we don't have pronouns indicating whether people are parents or not, or indicating their marital status.
Actually, we did have the latter with "Miss" and "Mrs", until we decided that this distinction isn't very inclusive, introducing the neutral "Ms", equivalent to the "Mr".
Point is, you could make up all sorts of pronouns including every aspect of a person's identity. I'm saying that is neat and all, but if I just want to construct a sentence about a person going to the store, I might not know or want to include any part of their identity, be it their gender, marital status or age.
or want to include any part of their identity
Sus. Again, read Trans Liberation. No investigation, no right to speak.
This isn't about gender, my point would still stand if transgender people didn't exist and he/him and she/her were all the pronouns we had. It is about identity, which parts of it we focus on, and how much information we subliminally reveal or require each time we talk about someone.
Gender is just a small part of identity, yet it is arbitrarily the one thing dominating and determining pronouns in the english language (and many others of course).
But I don't feel like arguing any further, maybe you don't understand, or maybe you just don't even read what I'm saying.
But here's an idea: How about you come up with some arguments instead of lazily referring to some perceived authority?
This isn't about gender, my point would still stand if transgender people didn't exist
And again, trans erasure. I also don’t feel like arguing, which is why I’m all but begging you to read a fucking book from an expert instead of continuing to dig into your position.
This is the Hexbear comm, where we talk about Hexbear. Hexbear has long required users to provide pronouns or use the default ("none/use name"). We've been over your stupid, boring arguments multiple years ago, and your side fucking lost back then. This is not up for debate even among actual Hexbear users, let alone obnoxious lemmitor shitheads from other instances, like yourself. We're not requiring users of other instances to provide pronouns anyway, just Hexbear users, so I don't have any idea why you even fucking care.
I guess what I'm saying is, fuck off.
Friend, you really should have just read the room. Nobody was asking for your opinion about this longstanding aspect of the site (not only a policy but an actual coded feature). You seem mostly cool based on your other posts, so just let this go, okay? You're not gonna be changing any minds here.
the only thing im here trying to convince people of is to vote for marianne williamson
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I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I understand.
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