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As a white man, honestly the left has been very chill with me. I get reminded of my privilege, but even that is pretty rare. As a left wing white guy, I do see how other white guys tend to dominate IRL spaces, especially ones where they shouldn't. I fucking hate seeing white guys talk over other people.
If I'm really searching for times I've felt butthurt, bossgirl PMC liberals are way more snarky and cruel then leftists by far. But obviously, nothing close to what non-white, non-males are getting.
Yeah, privileged =/= sinful or bad. I mean, look at Engels.
Plus, depending on what subgroup of white you are (like Ashkenazim or Irish or :anti-italian-action: ), you definitely have every right to sus out the right claiming to fight for you as a white person.
You watch Suzanna Kleeman's fatal dates? She has philosophical interviews under Jean Baudrillard frame work very good
there was just a thread related to this, I'm gonna link my contribution and quote it here because I think it's worth repeating:
Patriarchy hurts us all, cis men (and even tall, packing, white cis men) included. Even those who largely benefit from it still have legitimate grievances, and the reason that so many cis men gravitate rightwards is that the rightist platform actually addresses those grievances (terribly of course). Many spaces on the left ignore or belittle the legitimate grievances of men in order to center the discussion around their advantages under patriarchy. That’s technically having your priorities straight, but if men have brushes with leftist discourse and are made to feel lesser over their patriarchy-built insecurities, they will absolutely not be drawn in.
Discourse about how patriarchy largely benefits men is still necessary, but the time to bring it up is not when a human being is expressing vulnerability about how they have been made to feel lesser by the impacts of patriarchy. This is true whether you’re trying to recruit for a platform, or just trying to be a decent human being. Dick size and height are two classic examples.
As always when any remotely related discussion comes up, I’m gonna plug The Will to Change by Bell Hooks.
To tie it up with a bow, even if you predominantly benefit from a system of oppression, it's okay to grieve the harm it has caused you as long as you acknowledge the full reality of the situation. More than that, men grieving the harms of patriarchy is inherently anti-patriarchal and in order to dismantle patriarchy it is best if we attack it from all angles, inside and out.
Thing about patriarchy is replacing it with another hierarchy of repression won't do. Simply replacing patriarchy with matriarchy will reproduce injustice in another way. I don't think anyone has synthesized a positive vision for the future that affirms all humanity without privileging another group. Especially with the sexes there are formal and informal power dynamics that can obfuscate who has actual control over their social relationships. Take female physical abuse of a male partners for instance, a perfect case of men being victimized by patriarchy too, they are shamed, blamed and emasculated for being beaten and for not being a "real man". Imo we have to present a positive leftist vision of what masculinity is and it's role in revolutionary politics. Moreover an all encompassing vision of how all segments of society can constructively contribute towards socialism and know that they have a home there "The International unites the human race "
So what is the vision??? In place of an articulated counter ideology the masses will assume we support the opposite. So what is the left's vision of a positive role for masculinity??
I personally don't go looking for a positive role related to feminity or masculinity or any of that shit because it's all a dead social construct anyway. Who gives a fuck. Just be a good human being. I'm probably the wrong person to ask as a non-binary person anyway. I've always seen gender as shackle telling me how to be instead of something to aspire to.
Just a bit more, IRL we can't LMAO half the human races lived experiences because 1. It further alienates them, crucially against our political aims 2. It's a false dichotomy and all of us are on a gradient 3. If you do believe in that false dichotomy as in the parlance of our times (people who affirm traditional gender roles) you may want to contribute to our political goals and those people should be welcomed too, right? Certainly we're not at the point of discriminating against those who identify with traditional gender roles, are we??? The socialist movement is mostly growing in the global south and they are unencumbered by these arguments as they would most likely be against them. That should be a litmus test for us and what is consensus globally
Respect. That's my personal view as well but society isn't there yet. If we actually yearn for a mass movement that spans the societies we will have to address traditional gender, tbh.
Absolutely no one on the left is calling for a matriarchal hierarchy to replace the current patriarchy. As you yourself point out, any perceived instance when a woman seemingly has an advantage over a man (Men not being believed when they are the victims of domestic violence) is still a result of the patriarchy, there is no matriarchal oppression to oppose because it doesnt exist. Both men and women are victims of the patriarchy, women more so as the underclass, but men are forced into roles which reinforce that system or they are shunned by it. Opposition to patriarchy is that positive vision for the future that you want.
Oppositional defiance is not enough. The responsibility is on the left as a political movement to articulate a positive role for everyone in our new society. This isn't me personally wanting more but this is how the left is viewed from many outsiders looking in. The onus is on us to determine how we can incorporate the multiplicity of humanity into our fold and increase our own capacity to organize and socially reproduce ourselves as a political movement of universal emancipation.
Oppositional defiance is not enough
Why? You aren't giving any specific material reason why opposing the patriarchy in favor of a society in which men and women are seen as equal isn't enough.
I simply dont understand what about Communism isnt a positive for men. Why do men need their own special role in society separate from women at all? Why isn't simply identifying as a man enough to be masculine? We are all proles, there's no need for men to be given a special subcategory relating to their gender in order for them to see social and economic progress as a benefit to themselves. The goal of any communist rhetoric around masculinity should be to educate men on how placing an extremely high value on their gender roles is unnecessary and not in their interests.
I agree. Men should NOT have a superior role and communism should be enough. However, in a transitional period, or our current period, there are many "men" who may agree with our politics but feel they have no place in it. Certainly a failure in our messaging so broadly interpreted throughout mainstream society that "cis white men" have no place in leftist politics is a massive failure on the left and we have alienated half of the human race. Short answer is the only way out of this is ALL together and it's on us to square that circle and make it digestible for the masses, not for them to subjectively make the right conclusions.
Im sorry but this is just nonsense.
Certainly a failure in our messaging so broadly interpreted throughout mainstream society that “cis white men” have no place in leftist politics
I literally have no idea what you mean here. What are you defining as "mainstream society"? Because mainstream society in the west is extremely hostile to Communism, not due to its lack of rhetoric about masculinity, but because of a long standing propoganda war that's been ongoing for over 80 years.
This is entire discussion is centered on a twitter argument being platformed by twitch streamers who are economically incentivized to label their job talking into a camera about culture war takes as politics. There isnt a single person outside the online left who gives a damn about this supposed lack of acceptance for cis white men on the left. Cis white men are broadly hostile to communism because we are trained all our lives to see it as evil and to value capitalism. Undoing that propagandizing includes deprogramming the misogyny inherent to that worldview.
“cis white men” have no place in leftist politics is a massive failure on the left and we have alienated half of the human race.
How are we alienating cis white men by insisting they be open to critiquing their own beliefs? Communist must by definition be open to self critique. Also, cis white men are not "half the population" and insisting we just have to accept whatever misogynistic beliefs they currently hold because we need them to join us will absolutely alienate the other half of the population. You know, the part directly affected by violent misogyny? Men's feelings of inadequacy are just far less important than Women's physical and emotional safety.
it’s on us to square that circle and make it digestible for the masses, not for them to subjectively make the right conclusions.
Dont treat poor young men like they're stupid and need to have their reactionary views catered to. Men are just as capable as engaging with these concepts as anyone else. Its not the messaging of the left that drives alienated young white men rightward, its the material conditions within the imperial core which incentivizes them to maintain the current status quo.
Catering to a small subsect of men who obsess and blame women for their inability to have sex, and lying to them by promising that joining a political movement will give it to them is stupid. We are Communists, not fascists, lying about our aims and goals is antithetical to everything we believe in.
1st I don't Twitter so idk what you talk about. 2nd I don't care about petty bourgeois twitch streamers and furthermore idk what you are talking about 3rd I'm not trying to cater to anyone, especially a small online sub group. These are long standing views that have permeated throughout culture and discourse that they are known quantities unless you want to ignore them. We should not lie to anyone. WE ARE NOT FASCISTS. We should have a constructive role they can contribute to.
These are long standing views that have permeated throughout culture
The view that women should be subservient to men is a long standing cultural view, yes. Thats exactly why it needs to be ruthlessly excised from socialist and communist movements.
I literally have no idea what you mean here. What are you defining as “mainstream society”? Because mainstream society in the west is extremely hostile to Communism, not due to its lack of rhetoric about masculinity, but because of a long standing propoganda war that’s been ongoing for over 80 years.
I mean the mainstream view of "leftist politics" that gets the most air time is usually liberal (i.e. capitalist) feminism where you constantly see tweets (or even mainstream TV segments) saying things like "all cis-white dudes need to CHECK THEIR PRIVILEGE" or "I DON'T HAVE TO EDUCATE YOU" kind of rhetoric.
And tbh somebody who has no idea what the actual left is will be extremely alienated with this. I know I was on my journey from normie liberal. Even simply mentioning words like patriarchy or privilege triggered me. Like it or not there are certain buzzwords that carry certain connotations for those not already embedded in that particular communities. Like saying words like "colonialism," "patriarchy," "privilege," "white supremacy," etc. to normies will quickly turn them off. When I try to broach these topics in normal conversation, I'll look for other ways to say the same thing (e.g. I might say "guy dominated" when talking about things like the video game industry instead of saying that the owners of these companies are "cis-het white males with privilege"). If we are to be scientific socialists about this, we must always adapt our strategy to fit the particular material conditions we find ourselves in and not get stuck into idealist, dogmatic thinking.
So you want the left to frame its messaging based on right wing anti-feminist propoganda that gets blasted 24/7 by capitalist owned media sites and tv channels?
Not frame entirely but certainly adapt because no matter what term we come up with the right will try to demonize it. This means we must always be on our feet so to speak and be ready to adapt. It's not our fault but it's where we find ourselves, so it's either adapt or die.
Im sorry but you aren't going to argue communism into existence. it doesnt matter if you find the exact phrasing that makes the average person understand what you mean or not, rhetoric and messaging are not enough. You need to gain material benefits for the proletariat and that means uplifting women from the oppression they face within the patriarchy before it means catering to men's feelings. That means misogyny must be stamped out, no matter where or why it starts. If women aren't safe within the movement then its certainly not going to do anything for the entire proletariat.
I mean you can do both. It's not one or the other. In order for women to be safe within the movement you're going to need to address any reactionary views from existing members and potential members. And some of those people will need to be handled different with different approaches. It's just like union organizing. You can't just barge in and say "labor oppression must be stamped out!" You gotta talk to people, feel them out first, and talk to them where they are (without sacrificing your own values of course).
However, in a transitional period, or our current period, there are many “men” who may agree with our politics but feel they have no place in it.
It sucks that many materialist minded people suddenly become idealistic when it comes to this kind of thing. You're right, messaging matters and it would be interesting to see how actually existing socialist states handled these issues, instead of just saying "well in my view the left is already good, perfect, etc. on this issue."
First of all your assessment of masculinity under communism is to make de-emphasize it or to erase it completley "The goal of any communist rhetoric around masculinity should be to educate men on how placing an extremely high value on their gender roles is unnecessary and not in their interests." do you think the masses should simply DO THE WORK themselves and all voluntarily symbolically castrate theirselves before society to prove their revolutionary bonafides???? There is no home for masculinity on the left and it is OUR collective failure. There would be no quarrel with creating female, or any other identity space in leftist circles but there is a massive resistance to making male safe places. I don't really care or need that but it does expose our limitations largely due to ideological dogma and our failure to incorporate large swaths of the population.
Communism is a political and economic movement based on the uplifting of the proletariat, it is not a self help group for men. Masculinity and internet culture war takes about it are irrelevant to our economic class.
Women (and other non-male gendered people) do need uplifting because under a patriarchal system they are the underclass and face a unique type of oppression related to their gender roles. Men do not face oppression related to our gender. As stated above, men are forced into roles which maintain and support that system and are not actually free to express themselves, so destroying the patriarchal system would also benefit us, but in a different way than it would benefit women.
If you want to start an explicitly Socialist self help group for men which explores positive masculinity within a socialist context go ahead, no one is stopping you. But it is not relevant to the material goals of uplifting the oppressed masses.
do you think the masses should simply DO THE WORK themselves and all voluntarily symbolically castrate theirselves before society to prove their revolutionary bonafides
What the fuck are you even talking about here. Castrate theirselves? Im a man and I am not castrated if I dont fit other men's definition of masculinity.
If any of you would give me a material reason why "masculinity" as a concept actually matters to I could engage with that, but as it stands its just a nebulous concept related to patriarchal norms and I see no reason why it needs catered to.
symbolic castration
Define this. Because all I see here is some fascist rhetoric about not being man enough.
You dont need a penis to be a masculine or a man, so explain what the fuck you are talking about or fuck off.
Your just up on that Andrew Taint shit aint you? I can tell by your comments. Fuck that guy. I'm not near about any of that shit. Women and men collectively hold up the sky so help me visualize what this looks like in an equitable society.
It's to do with Lacanian psychoanalysis Castration is the symbolic lack of an imaginary object. It is essentially tied to the symbolic order and to the central position given by the Oedipus complex. It refers to the symbolic debt in the register of the law. Because in your estimation ALL men are successfully integrated into a repressor relationship and should be symbolically disavowed or castrated to make real the gap between us
:zizek-preference: I have also read Zizek. You should consider broadening your horizons and try to read theorists who actually have experience with gender and sexuality before speaking on it with authority. Zizek absolutely sucks at it.
Oh yes. He's getting worse and worse by the day too. Not my main pull here though. And honestly he was stealing from Lacan, and Lacan from Althusser... but basically the anti communist left in cold war eastern Europe were Euro communist (soc dems). But we're loosing a engagement among young men and it needs to be taken seriously . I see no reason why we can't accommodate all.
:jesse-wtf:
Look back the fuck off. I disengaged for a reason and I seriously have no fucking clue what your problem is
Ok fair enough. You seem like a good person let's just call it a night. Good night comrade!
You seeing it as a nebulous concept with no reason to cater to it shows your lack of taking this problem seriously and exemplifies bad faith. Would you apply the same rubric to femininity?
Insisting that men on the left must treat women as human beings and do not have any right to their bodies is actually good for men! I mean obviously its important for women (given their actual safety is more important than men's feelings), but men being forced to confront any sexist or misogynist views they've been taught to see as normal also makes them better and healthier people.
"the left" is such an ambiguous concept in America you can't really make much of a claim either way I think. people just want to argue on twitter
The left doesn't exist. And when it does it's easily turned against it self
You don't have to take this stuff seriously like basically nobody says this
I do like that both your original comment and your edit say the same thing :wink:
Even incel communities acknowledge that white dudes have it better than dudes of other ethnicities. Like, that's why terms like
cringey incel language
ricecels, currycels, beancels
even exist. It's acknowledgment, through their own reactionary bullshit, that they have it even worse that generic (ie white) incels. Otherwise, what's the point of even coming up with these terms?
Imagine advocating we should coddle cishet white dudes when even incel communities don't coddle them. That's just pathetic.
Hi friend, this is a pretty good point and it adds to the discussion but I think it'd probably be best if you spolier'd and CW'd some of that for slurs
If you're referring to that Vaush tweet post (https://hexbear.net/post/243043) I think the issue was about lonely young men in general, not just white men. I say this as a non-white cis guy, the left really doesn't give good dating advice other than useless platitudes (see my comment here: https://hexbear.net/post/243043/comment/3121574). And I have personally seen POC dudes I know drift rightward and become pretty much right-wing at this point so I do think it's a big problem.
The left isn't a self-help service it's a movement to build a positive alternative to capitalism and imperialism
The left isn’t a self-help service it’s a movement to build a positive alternative to capitalism and imperialism
Yeah for sure. And part of that will be about addressing lonely young men.
If a white cis dude takes offense to critiques of the white supremicist power structure/patriarchy etc, it means they identify with it. When you don't identify with the power structure it theres nothing to get in a fut over
Is this about V*ush again? I saw the last dunk thread and I'm fairly certain no-one here was agreeing with the twitter post.
begging my hexbear comrades to just get a twitter account if they want to spend each day picking one of the controversies circulating the hellsite and turning it into a certified Hexbear™ struggle session.
:agony-deep:
Your post is right but :rage-cry: don't feed the wreckers
