The hypocrisy and brain worms in this thread and the rest of the comments. :brainworms: central over there.
The wiping out wasn't intentional. It was due to disease. Germ theory wasn't understood back then.
Baby idiot redditor. Diseases have been deliberately used in colonization since at least the 16th century.
Who are these reddit dipshits? They're laser focused on hating China that it's their hobby. They always retreat when called out too. They'll say "I can hate both China and America." Well you live in America you goofball, then you can do something about it other than post. Go join an organization instead of just voting for whatever ghoulish Democrat wanders into your vision every 2 years.
Bro half the surviving Hawaiian population has been deported from Hawaii - but the One Cool Trick is that instead of just deporting everyone, the invaders handed all the natives Staying In Your Homeland Points and if they ran out of all their Points they had to leave! I'm of course talking about US dollars
Fucking assholes! How do they explain the large amount of Natives that are STILL dying in large amounts due to disease, large compared to their colonizer scum's death counts. Covid multiplied the problem tenfold.
All these dipshits love Murica more than they love their own mothers.
And it's not because their mothers are bad people.
:amerikkka-clap:
Diseases have been deliberately used in colonization since at least the 16th century.
Meh. Deliberately is a heavy word. Suffice it to say that wars are notorious vectors for disease transmission.
The US didn't need to intentionally spread the 1917 flu across Europe. Smallpox had decimated Native communities no Western even knew about, long before they arrived to seize territory. The Ottomans didn't unleash the Black Death on Europe. China didn't cook COVID up in a lab. All these kingdoms had to do was export the surplus males and let nature run its course.
Weaponized disease was considered a clumsy, self-destructive weapon when Americans and Soviets were researching it in earnest 50 years ago. King George and King Ferdinand likely don't know Germ Theory existed at the time his subjects were infecting half the New World.
If I remember correctly, there are actual documents/letters from the time who show that diseases were deliberately being used against the native population in what is today the USA.
It may have been "clumsy" or whatever, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
By the time it was being deployed as military policy, Smallpox had been ravaging the continent for centuries. We're talking about a disease introduced in the 16th century with documents of deliberate spread dating to the 18th and 19th. The bulk of the damage in the Columbian Exchange had already been inflicted.
It may have been “clumsy” or whatever, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
The primary and most deadly wave of infections was not intentional. Nor could it have been effectively averted given the medical science of the period.
We’re talking about a disease introduced in the 16th century with documents of deliberate spread dating to the 18th and 19th. The bulk of the damage in the Columbian Exchange had already been inflicted.
I honestly don't get what you're trying to say here. Do you think the fact that a disease was inadvertently introduced in the 16th century somehow excuses the fact that it was deliberately used as a weapon in subsequent centuries?
I usually agree with your comments that I've seen here on hexbear, but this weird.
i think the idea is that initial contact plague was when natives had the limited immunity that so disproportionately affected natives
after those centuries and contact it wouldn't have been disproportionate anymore so when europeans ordered smallpox blankets it mightve been effectively the same as handing them to white people
im not an epidemiologist so i dont know if thats true but i believe that's the line of argumentation
I honestly don’t get what you’re trying to say here
That disease spread wasn't a deliberate decision.
Do you think the fact that a disease was inadvertently introduced in the 16th century somehow excuses the fact that it was deliberately used as a weapon in subsequent centuries?
Of all the genocidal policies implemented by colonial actors, this was approaching the least consequential.
I usually agree with your comments that I’ve seen here on hexbear, but this weird.
Fixating on the spread of disease following First Contact turns a lesson about managing and mitigating disease from a public policy problem into a morality myth.
It gets on my nerves because it confuses the necessary response - particularly in the wake of another big global pandemic - as "Don't trust evil foreigners!" rather than "Develop a modern medical system and health care policy".
That disease spread wasn’t a deliberate decision.
Yes it fucking was.
No one here is "fixating" on anything. This is like me saying "burning Vietnamese villages with flamethrowers was horrible" and you going "but what about agent orange?"
It's possible to have two or more thoughts at the same time.
It gets on my nerves because it confuses the necessary response - particularly in the wake of another big global pandemic - as “Don’t trust evil foreigners!” rather than “Develop a modern medical system and health care policy”.
This is all in your head. No one here has suggested anything even close to this. WTF are you on about?
Yes it fucking was.
First Contact guaranteed an exchange of pathogens. Continuous contact guaranteed propagation.
This is like me saying “burning Vietnamese villages with flamethrowers was horrible” and you going “but what about agent orange?”
No. This is akin to claiming Vietnam was caused by fossil fuels, asserting fossil fuels are colonialist, and then repeatedly pointing to Mai Ly to make your case while calling anyone who disagrees a Colin Powell apologist.
This is all in your head.
:hasan-ok-dude:
No. This is akin to claiming Vietnam was caused by fossil fuels, asserting fossil fuels are colonialist, and then repeatedly pointing to Mai Ly to make your case while calling anyone who disagrees a Colin Powell apologist.
:what-the-hell:
You're right that most of it wasn't deliberate and it's clumsy, but intentional incidents of biological warfare have occurred since at least antiquity, like Roman soldiers dipping their swords/arrows in corpses to spread tetanus. The smallpox blankets incident occurred in 1763 and there are documents showing the commander of Fort Pitt ordering his soldiers to give the blankets to the Seneca people.
I don't know much about Hawaii specifically, but I know there was an increase in syphilis among the indigenous Hawaiians around when they started getting colonized.
The smallpox blankets incident occurred in 1763 and there are documents showing the commander of Fort Pitt ordering his soldiers to give the blankets to the Seneca people.
Sure. But this was literally centuries after the initial and most lethal waves of infection.
I know there was an increase in syphilis among the indigenous Hawaiians around when they started getting colonized.
Ironically enough, Syphilis was likely a New World disease brought back by Italian sailors in the 1490s.
The real crime here was the rampant unchecked sexual assaults that colonists perpetrated on native people. This wasn't biological warfare. It was a secondary consequence of military conquest.
the black death story actually starts with Jani Beg Khan intentionally throwing plaguebearing corpses over the walls of Caffa, and fleeing Genoese ferried it across the Medd
historians dispute that it was that clean now but its a nice story
Sure. But that doesn't explain how the disease gets all the way to the Atlantic Coast.
I'd much rather be a peasant in pre-colonial Hawaii than a serf in pre-liberated Tibet
Monarchy may still suck but it beats living as a slave
Pre-contact Hawaiians had it figured out. Their agriculture was basically set up to only require half a work day to maintain, so they enjoyed more leisure time than almost anybody else on the planet - until all of that got ripped up and replaced by pineapple plantations.
I mean there are bodies of water, just not exactly the kind of beach most of us think of
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/BIG/20200430/81/8575422747156807893.jpg
One person says “but white Americans aren’t the majority in Hawaii”
Ok but they still own and control the majority of the land and resources
Its so fucking bad please Xi arm the natives over here its basically just a hotel and navy base to these american shitheads. Whats left is becoming owned by ghoulish landlords.
oh my fucking god
Me looking around at the Hawaiian natives and seeing how their culture is being co-opted into consumerist nonsense while still being kicked off land and gradually losing what little left they had:
"WELL AT LEAST WE DON'T LIVE IN CHINA"
The last time I was in Hawaii I saw a guy who was probably a native Hawaiin driving a big Ford truck, listening to butt-ass rah rah USA country music, and he had an american flag bumper sticker. It's still one of the most miserable things I've ever seen.
Ok, so I've had a look at the Time article that was linked in the :reddit-logo: post.
What's interesting is that the only link in the article to any supposed evidence of the claim being made is this: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/02/china-un-experts-alarmed-separation-1-million-tibetan-children-families-and
Notice how it's a dead end with no further links to any actual research on the matter?
I'll happily admit that I suck at the internet so there's a very good chance I'm missing something crucial here, but at first glance this doesn't look very persuasive.
I saw that, but the question still remains: Why are none of the citations in the PDF linked in neither the Time article or the ohchr press release?
Sure is funny how you're expected to do so much digging to get to any of the actual research (if there even is any) :curious-marx:
Yeah, that's the thing. I'm not saying that the numbers can't possibly be real because I believe that China could do no wrong, I'm saying that I need to see some receipts.
Nah. This is pretty normal.
Maybe there really is source material being referenced, maybe it is even approaching legit (some sociological survey estimating child death over a 100 years and pinning it on the Chinese).
But nobody bothers to maintain these links. Nobody bothers to read past the headline even. Why would they? Either you're eating from their trough of ideology or you aren't.
Wasn't Reddit doing apologia for the US invading Native American land by saying the Natives were just as violent? I swear I see those posts every other day on that site.
oh boy sure is fortunate the hawaiians were embraced by the free and democratic US and were immediately granted full representation and legal equality then, right?
itd look so bad if the US kept hawaii as some kind of "Colony" for decades
