What's your point, that the anti-war position should be to let actual Nazis continue hitting hospitals and homes with artillery until they get tired of it?
Sure, if your cutoff for a solution is "right now". The people of Ukraine voted for an anti-war president and he couldn't stop the war crimes. Is there another solution you see to the eight year long problem?
And the invasion was a "solution"? For who? I don't see how it resolved anything. It was deeply stupid and denying that is weird imo since they obviously thought they'd be able to trounce Ukraine like they did Georgia in 2008 and call it a day after a week but here we are a year later and its just escalating and the possibility for real peace for people in the region just worse than ever before.
what is the abscene of a peacetreaty , and what would you do if this here + Zelensky under applause declaring his persude of Nuclear Weapons at the Munich Security Council , is the reaction on your diplomatic initiative..
not that there are not other Reaction then the invasion and other goals , but i want you to state an actuall alternative Strategy not just "invasion bad" ...
how do you play it ?
Edit: I would have first shut sown the landline pipelines to europe as a treat, and offere an donbass specific ulitmatum ..
Do you have an alternative proposal? This conflict was going to happen one way or another because of NATO and America's arming literal nazis. I don't think there's any reasonable analysis of this that doesn't acknowledge that.
I mean, the far right in the US does run ministries. Like, half of the Republican party is either explicitly fascist or close enough. And that's not even getting into local governments in the US, where every single police department is more or less just a paramilitary force for whatever purpose they think they should serve.
You can literally make most of those points about russia too. As i've said, pretending russia is doing this for some noble antifascist reason is incredibly naive and frankly embarrasing.
Deflection? This was literally about some guy pretending the Wagner group is ok because they are silly little guys with no power. Acting exactly like the liberals with Azov.
Yes, and liberals also say that the Azov's group influence is overblown.
Consume state dept propaganda and my positions falling in line with them?¿?¿?¿
Hilarious, please, point to me where have i ever defended this war or supported Ukraine. Is "no to this war" the official US position? Has Biden critiziced Zelensky and it's gang of nazis???
Stop with the mindless drivel, you people randomly spew buzzwords before even reading what someone else is actually saying.
Georgia did. After NATO built them up for years they tried to grab a slice of South Ossetia. They got their asses handed to them on a platter. The corporate media then tried to spin it as Russian disinformation. Why wouldn't Ukraine?
Russia is untenable as a nation if Ukraine is not at least neutral, and everyone knows it. Why else did NATO spend so much effort trying to get Ukraine in? It's a springboard for invasion.
Are you serious? NATO were training them and built them up. They might not invade Russia, but donbass region? They have the capability to do it. It might be dumb from your perspective, but after 2014 and the ethnic Russian in that region separate, it's basically becoming a civil war and there's no way Russia, Putin or not would let the whole Ukraine be control by nato/nato train force.
I dont care if Ukraine invades itself, thats its own business. The idea Ukraine would really pose any real threat to Russia is just dumb, its the poorest country in Europe and Russia has 6000 nuclear warheads.
Well, the Donbass region ask Russia for help. Again, Russian will not tolerate any nato force/nato train force in Ukraine. 6k war head doesn't matter when the enemy force is next to your border that nato could put nuke that aim straight at Moscow. This is just a classic battle for influence, the Russian will not tolerate any force next to them just as the US will not tolerate any military build up near them, which is why they tried to invade Cuba in the first place, because they can't control them, if they can't control them then they blockade them.
I know it why the US did that, but you understand the US shouldn't have right? Russia won't tolerate it, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have. Its not like Ukraine would have ever joined NATO with ongoing border conflicts, and its not like Cuba posed a threat to the US either even with nukes.
US shouldn't have, but they still did it. The US shouldn't expand nato either, but they still did it. As I said, the US touch the Russian sphere of influence, Russia naturally respond, Cuba is not posing a threat to the US but they still get blockade and harass. The world would be perfect if the elite not thirst for power, but that's fantasy, not the reality we're dealing with.
ok but this whole convo started with "of course he should have invaded what else was he supposed to do???" and obviously the answer is not invade, lots of other stuff any more rational country like China could have done 🤷
Well he tried for 8 years and it gotten worst. If today, Tsai In Wen declare independent, then China would instantly commence reunification. If 2014 coup hasn't happen, don't think Russia would invade.
I don't care for government stoking separatist movements in other countries for one thing, that's the shit the US does. You people believe insane shit about Putin, you think he is invading Ukraine out of altruism for Russians there?
Don't think the Russian govt need to stoke separatist movement when it's only 20 years the Soviet dissolve after all, considering the history of that region which was once belong to Russian empire then transfer to Ukraine SSR because they were country. Peoples there have family in both. Like i'm not surprise that the region want to separate after learning their govt want to ban the language that they've been using since forever.
Ukrainian military buildup from 2014 represented the largest, by percentage of population, non-superpower military buildup since WWI. They weren't just building it up for funsies. What they were going to use it for, I couldn't say, but you generally don't build up that much of a military while in the middle of a civil war and not use it to retake the area that has separated.
Plus probably Crimea, since they were talking about it so much.
I mean they did trounce them considering Ukraine was ready to sign the peace agreement in April.....until the west sabotaged it and proceeded to empty Europe of arms in a successful bid to prolong the war
The cutoff for the present "solution" seems to be never. The lines on the map are barely moving. The Wagner guy says 2 more years I think. And if Ukraine capitulated tomorrow, revanchism and irredentism are going to be majority positions in a country full of traumatized veterans and ATGMs.
I can't know how a different approach would have worked out. But when you send in the tanks you take responsibility for how it turns out.
There was no other solution because America and NATO weren't going to let this go another way. It was 2022 or sometime soon for this conflict to blossom, and Russia simply took the initiative.
Morocco is constantly undermining spanish authority, planting bugs in the presidential palace and constantly stirring shit up. Should Spain invade Morocco, then? Maybe they should take the initiative too.
Yes, they are actively bombing the Sahara.
No, they don't need to, Morocco is already cozy with the US.
Yes, it used to be, and Morocco is bombing said citizens.
Yes, they are being murdered by the moroccan regime.
No, the spanish bourgoisie is deep in morocco's pocket and don't care about it.
Yes, as i said, they invaded said region in the 70s.
Yeah, no. Also, not to Spain, to a region that used to be spanish up to the 70s, was conquered then by Morocco, and has been bombed ever since because they want to be independent.
It's hilarious how certain "leftists" are more bloodthirsty than liberals.
Holy shit, you people are sooooooo inmersed in russian propaganda than when presented with the exact same scenario in a different part of the world, you will inmediately run to justify the colonial power, again.
Hmm seems like you Poles have a big problem with fascists doing pogroms. The Soviets have failed to solve it (You in 1942)
This is the entire fascist NATO west using Ukraine as a proxy army and putting Russia in a corner. Russia has no choice but to fight, and for the good of humanity we should all hope they win again, as they did in WW2 against the demons from the west.
Given NATO's track record I don't think it is morally possible for Russia to just surrender their people to the tender care of a US backed regime. It's just not happening.
Civilians in the Donbas are very safe now. The military aged males? Even safer.
What's your point, that the anti-war position should be to let actual Nazis continue hitting hospitals and homes with artillery until they get tired of it?
I agree that there was a big problem there. Seems to me they failed to solve it.
Sure, if your cutoff for a solution is "right now". The people of Ukraine voted for an anti-war president and he couldn't stop the war crimes. Is there another solution you see to the eight year long problem?
And the invasion was a "solution"? For who? I don't see how it resolved anything. It was deeply stupid and denying that is weird imo since they obviously thought they'd be able to trounce Ukraine like they did Georgia in 2008 and call it a day after a week but here we are a year later and its just escalating and the possibility for real peace for people in the region just worse than ever before.
what is the abscene of a peacetreaty , and what would you do if this here + Zelensky under applause declaring his persude of Nuclear Weapons at the Munich Security Council , is the reaction on your diplomatic initiative..
not that there are not other Reaction then the invasion and other goals , but i want you to state an actuall alternative Strategy not just "invasion bad" ...
how do you play it ?
Edit: I would have first shut sown the landline pipelines to europe as a treat, and offere an donbass specific ulitmatum ..
Do you have an alternative proposal? This conflict was going to happen one way or another because of NATO and America's arming literal nazis. I don't think there's any reasonable analysis of this that doesn't acknowledge that.
Oh cool, thank god Russia doesn't arm literal nazis such as, let's say, the Wagner group.
Please, if you are trying to analyze the conflict don't sound like you are trying to turn Putin into some antinazi icon.
Does Wagner do pogroms in Russia? Do they run any ministries? This is tired NAFO fella rhetoric.
Oh cool, do nazis run ministries in the US, do they commit progroms????? I guess they are not a problem either.
Lmao, thank god nazis are not a problem unless they control the upper echelons of the government.
Didn't answer the question, deflect to an imagined point I didn't make. Oh yeah, it's :reddit-logo: time.
I mean, the far right in the US does run ministries. Like, half of the Republican party is either explicitly fascist or close enough. And that's not even getting into local governments in the US, where every single police department is more or less just a paramilitary force for whatever purpose they think they should serve.
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You can literally make most of those points about russia too. As i've said, pretending russia is doing this for some noble antifascist reason is incredibly naive and frankly embarrasing.
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Deflection? This was literally about some guy pretending the Wagner group is ok because they are silly little guys with no power. Acting exactly like the liberals with Azov.
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Yes, and liberals also say that the Azov's group influence is overblown.
Consume state dept propaganda and my positions falling in line with them?¿?¿?¿
Hilarious, please, point to me where have i ever defended this war or supported Ukraine. Is "no to this war" the official US position? Has Biden critiziced Zelensky and it's gang of nazis???
Stop with the mindless drivel, you people randomly spew buzzwords before even reading what someone else is actually saying.
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"Haha, silly Lenin, how dare you say both sides are the same, don't you know we must defend our people against french aggression??"
For someone antiwar you do seem too keen in justifying Putin. This war is both his and the US fault.
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Shelling civilians is bad??
Wowie, thank god Mr.Putin is not doing that, am i right???????
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Again sounding like a zionist.
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Georgia did. After NATO built them up for years they tried to grab a slice of South Ossetia. They got their asses handed to them on a platter. The corporate media then tried to spin it as Russian disinformation. Why wouldn't Ukraine?
Russia is untenable as a nation if Ukraine is not at least neutral, and everyone knows it. Why else did NATO spend so much effort trying to get Ukraine in? It's a springboard for invasion.
sorry but the idea of Ukraine invading Russia or something is just dumb, they didnt pose any serious threat lol cmon
Are you serious? NATO were training them and built them up. They might not invade Russia, but donbass region? They have the capability to do it. It might be dumb from your perspective, but after 2014 and the ethnic Russian in that region separate, it's basically becoming a civil war and there's no way Russia, Putin or not would let the whole Ukraine be control by nato/nato train force.
I dont care if Ukraine invades itself, thats its own business. The idea Ukraine would really pose any real threat to Russia is just dumb, its the poorest country in Europe and Russia has 6000 nuclear warheads.
Well, the Donbass region ask Russia for help. Again, Russian will not tolerate any nato force/nato train force in Ukraine. 6k war head doesn't matter when the enemy force is next to your border that nato could put nuke that aim straight at Moscow. This is just a classic battle for influence, the Russian will not tolerate any force next to them just as the US will not tolerate any military build up near them, which is why they tried to invade Cuba in the first place, because they can't control them, if they can't control them then they blockade them.
I know it why the US did that, but you understand the US shouldn't have right? Russia won't tolerate it, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have. Its not like Ukraine would have ever joined NATO with ongoing border conflicts, and its not like Cuba posed a threat to the US either even with nukes.
US shouldn't have, but they still did it. The US shouldn't expand nato either, but they still did it. As I said, the US touch the Russian sphere of influence, Russia naturally respond, Cuba is not posing a threat to the US but they still get blockade and harass. The world would be perfect if the elite not thirst for power, but that's fantasy, not the reality we're dealing with.
ok but this whole convo started with "of course he should have invaded what else was he supposed to do???" and obviously the answer is not invade, lots of other stuff any more rational country like China could have done 🤷
Well he tried for 8 years and it gotten worst. If today, Tsai In Wen declare independent, then China would instantly commence reunification. If 2014 coup hasn't happen, don't think Russia would invade.
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I don't care for government stoking separatist movements in other countries for one thing, that's the shit the US does. You people believe insane shit about Putin, you think he is invading Ukraine out of altruism for Russians there?
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Don't think the Russian govt need to stoke separatist movement when it's only 20 years the Soviet dissolve after all, considering the history of that region which was once belong to Russian empire then transfer to Ukraine SSR because they were country. Peoples there have family in both. Like i'm not surprise that the region want to separate after learning their govt want to ban the language that they've been using since forever.
Ukraine has been bombing civilians for nearly a decade and allowed Nazi paramilitaries to harass and kill them.
You "dont care" about that? It's Ukraine's "own business?"
Fuck you dude, also this provides a lot of context for the repeated threads you posted to whine about anti-war conferences.
Oh cool, so then we should also support the US intervening in Iraq, i guess.
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You don’t care if Ukrainians do genocides on Russian ethnic civilians by bombing cities and burning communists alive in union halls? That’s lib shit
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Yeah no, the Ukrainians were absolutely building up for an invasion of Crimea, that was explicitly the position of the coup regime
You don't maintain a 700,000 strong army just to have it sit on Russia's borders for eternity
Ukrainian military buildup from 2014 represented the largest, by percentage of population, non-superpower military buildup since WWI. They weren't just building it up for funsies. What they were going to use it for, I couldn't say, but you generally don't build up that much of a military while in the middle of a civil war and not use it to retake the area that has separated.
Plus probably Crimea, since they were talking about it so much.
I mean they did trounce them considering Ukraine was ready to sign the peace agreement in April.....until the west sabotaged it and proceeded to empty Europe of arms in a successful bid to prolong the war
The cutoff for the present "solution" seems to be never. The lines on the map are barely moving. The Wagner guy says 2 more years I think. And if Ukraine capitulated tomorrow, revanchism and irredentism are going to be majority positions in a country full of traumatized veterans and ATGMs.
I can't know how a different approach would have worked out. But when you send in the tanks you take responsibility for how it turns out.
There was no other solution because America and NATO weren't going to let this go another way. It was 2022 or sometime soon for this conflict to blossom, and Russia simply took the initiative.
Morocco is constantly undermining spanish authority, planting bugs in the presidential palace and constantly stirring shit up. Should Spain invade Morocco, then? Maybe they should take the initiative too.
Are they shelling civilians? Why is it so hard for liberals to remember the status quo before the Russian invasion?
Yes, lmao. They murdered 50 inmigrants with the complicitness of the spanish government a few months ago.
Morocco isn't trying to take over Andalusia or install a coup government in Spain, and NATO isn't trying to break Spain into tiny pieces
Morocco woulf be Ukraine in my (admitely shitty) analogy.
:jesse-wtf:
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Yes, they are actively bombing the Sahara. No, they don't need to, Morocco is already cozy with the US. Yes, it used to be, and Morocco is bombing said citizens. Yes, they are being murdered by the moroccan regime. No, the spanish bourgoisie is deep in morocco's pocket and don't care about it. Yes, as i said, they invaded said region in the 70s.
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Yeah, no. Also, not to Spain, to a region that used to be spanish up to the 70s, was conquered then by Morocco, and has been bombed ever since because they want to be independent.
It's hilarious how certain "leftists" are more bloodthirsty than liberals.
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WTF?
There are a lot of equivalencies, as i've said. And i oppose imperialist wars in all shapes and forms. Unlike you.
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You sound like a zionist, complaining about being shelled while ignoring absolutely everything else.
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Oh cool, two treaties, not one or three. You want two. The Sahara has been internationally recognized by 80 countries, is that enought for you?
Yes. Cool it with the question mark.
Where's the pogroms??? Are you fucking kidding me?¿??¿?
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/oppression-is-brutal-morocco-breaks-up-western-sahara-protest-ahead-of-un-talks/ https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocupaci%C3%B3n_marroqu%C3%AD_del_Sahara_Occidental
Holy shit, you people are sooooooo inmersed in russian propaganda than when presented with the exact same scenario in a different part of the world, you will inmediately run to justify the colonial power, again.
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“Oh so you’d be a Zionist? Oh so you’d be in favor of invading Iraq? Oh so if the positions were different your position would be wrong and bad”
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I agree with you, I think the other interlocutor keeps making analogies that are frankly inane
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Hmm seems like you Poles have a big problem with fascists doing pogroms. The Soviets have failed to solve it (You in 1942)
This is the entire fascist NATO west using Ukraine as a proxy army and putting Russia in a corner. Russia has no choice but to fight, and for the good of humanity we should all hope they win again, as they did in WW2 against the demons from the west.
Under certain circumstances, you should consider that. But that's not really analogous to this situation
Given NATO's track record I don't think it is morally possible for Russia to just surrender their people to the tender care of a US backed regime. It's just not happening.
Well they sure as shit weren't safe when Ukraine was shelling them daily and neo-nazis militias were disappearing 15,000 people
Much preferred it when the Nazis were doing hunting safaris sniping children, and the whole world was ignoring it