How debunk this?

  • Dolores [love/loves]
    ·
    1 year ago

    migration from the eastern bloc wasn't actually that bad outside of East->West Germany, and that was because the west germans literally bribed people who'd already gotten fantastic state-funded educations in the east

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is an interesting answer. Do you have sources?

    • Mardoniush [she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Also West Germany Berlin ironically, was a Potemkin village. It had no economy but life there was massively subsidised to look like a theme park capitalist utopia. Meanwhile East Germany Berlin was a working economic and Political capitol with all the compromises and issues that entails (though even there Leipzig was arguably more important.)

      There's a lot of stories about East Germans coming over and being stunned by the endless wonders of West Berlin, and then being less enthralled at ending up in 1-room in a grey tower block halfway between two particularly grey Rheinland industrial towns.

      • Dolores [love/loves]
        ·
        1 year ago

        not exact to your comment but i feel it needs to be mentioned that a lot of anglos think the 'berline wall' existed across germany or eastern eueope when it literally only was in Berline and nowhere else. very easy to cross from east bloc to the west most places

        • Mardoniush [she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yes, sorry, I meant Berlin but apparently wrote Germany. Absolutely true that the border was pretty porous most places and if you really wanted to you could leave fairly easily via a days hike.

  • Coolkidbozzy [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    The soviet union was great, in comparison to everything before and after on the same land

    I assume you mean the Berlin wall. East germany was much poorer than west germany. This was the case before WW2, and it is still poorer today. It wasn't helped by events like the Dresden bombings or Russia taking some of its industrial capital as reparations

    East germany quickly produced the most educated working class it ever had with free universities. West germany had better wages and more treats because of their wealth. Therefore, people flocked to the west. That doesn't mean east germany was inherently worse under socialism! They simply started with worse material conditions. The wall was an 'authoritarian' measure to prevent brain drain. I don't know if it was the best option, but I understand why it was built. Perhaps a compromise could have been freedom of movement within the eastern bloc, to give people the opportunity to build socialism elsewhere if they wanted

    Socialism isn't utopian, but it is the most democratic way to distribute and build the resources we have, and give people the most opportunities. The entire USSR was always way poorer than the US, or modern China, but it accomplished so much more for the common person than its successor states ever will

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      1 year ago

      These are good arguments. I wasn't talking only about Berlin though, but this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_Eastern_Bloc

      Wasn't emigration heavily restricted? Or have I been disinfo'ed

      • plinky [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago
        1. Educate specialists for free

        2. specialists want that pmc blood money, not 50 percent more than worker money

        3. emigration of people highly invested in by the state

        4. emigration gets restricted cause it doesn’t make any sense to do this for society

        • Coolkidbozzy [he/him]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          A Hungarian economist stated that "it was quite obvious that the socialist countries—like other countries—intended to prevent their professionals, trained at the expense of their society, from being used to enrich other countries."[62] Eastern European spokesmen maintained that they were keeping would-be emigrants from suffering from insufficient linguistic and cultural preparation.[63] They also stressed the debt that individuals owed to socialist states, which offered care from birth, including subsidized education and training[63] and, thus, they justified the emigration restrictions as an "education tax" with the states having a right to recoup its investment.[64] Open emigration policies would create a "brain drain", forcing the state to readjust its wage structure at a cost to other economic priorities.[65] Bulgarian and Romanian representatives had long argued that they could not afford to match western salaries and, without emigration restrictions, they "would become like Africa."[65] The restrictions presented a quandary for some Eastern Bloc states that had been more economically advanced and open than the Soviet Union, such that crossing borders seemed more natural—especially between East and West Germany where no prior border existed.

          yeah the Wikipedia article basically states what I wrote above

          a physical wall only existed in Germany, but the restricted borders were along the entire eastern bloc like @Vampire said, for the same reason

  • Ligma_Male [comrade/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    there are some accounts in one of the :parenti: books about how former communist, and particularly east german, people were hoodwinked and took everything they had from socialism for granted.

    • baguettePants [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Don't need a book. I lived through the dissolution of socialist Yugoslavia myself. People absolutely took everything good in socialism for granted and thought they were going to keep it, while also getting the capitalist treats as well. What followed was a nightmare of transition to crony capitalism, mixed in with a war. As a kid, I was also "hoodwinked" by the western media, but realised something was off with the whole narrative of wonderful capitalism, when I traveled abroad and was shocked to see so many homeless people and people going through garbage...something I haven't ever seen in socialist Yugoslavia. Soon after the transition, garbage scavengers became a regular thing and now it's all just a bunch of failed sorry states and ruined societies, staying barely afloat, mostly because of the achievements of the past socialist governments.

      • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
        ·
        1 year ago

        it's always telling that the former socialist citizens living in capitalism praise it always talk about their own successes and treats and people that those who despise capitalism always talk about the poverty experienced by not just themselves but others. nice little microcosm of ideology there. none to be found in watching a human being scavenge the waste of others for food.

      • huf [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        yeah, in hungary, we thought we were getting western european social democracy (or rather, what we imagined that was). when in fact, this mythical beast was already on the way out even in western europe.

    • MaoistLandlord [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      During the 2020 lockdowns, there were some stores that hid empty shelves with posters of shelves with food. I came across a Reddit thread about this and some descendent of East Germans said “wow this is just like east Germany”

      Then an actual ex-East German guy showed up and said “actually, it’s nothing like east Germany. There weren’t many options to choose from but no one ever starved or struggled to find a home.”

      The descendent guy got upset and said “stop praising a murderous regime.”

      • invo_rt [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        weren’t many options to choose from

        The addiction to the theater of "choice" that comes with US consumerism is one of the most mind-numbing things to have to keep retreading with reactionaries. I don't give it a shit if there are forty brands of oatmeal on the shelves. Just give me one that's minimally processed and not covered in sugar and corn slurry.

        • CrimsonSage [any]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Variety and choce is nice when there is actual variety and choice. Like I like being able to choose different types of bread for different meals. But when you look in the bread isle of any store 70-90% are all basically identical over-sugared loaves sliced bread in different bags. With no real difference other than price it just leads to paralysis. Basically everything is fucking like this, I defy anyone to really explain the scientific material difference between goddamn shampoo brands and conditioners to me.

          • Ligma_Male [comrade/them]
            ·
            1 year ago

            socialist takeover kellogg's factory in venezuela added a 4th kind of cereal to their production, up from 3. We can have variety it'll just be sensible like a dozen flavors of potato chip instead of 5 competing brands of plain chip alone before we even get to all the fun flavors.

        • supafuzz [comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          My favorite supermarket chain in the world is a Colombian chain called D1. There's only one choice for most things and they're nearly all store brand. Prices are low, quality is consistently high (their wine/liquor buyer in particular is a genius), and because they aren't filling up aisles with 100 variations of the same thing, they can stock a little bit of everything in a small corner store. It is perfect.

        • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Ask any psychologist at random and they'll tell you straight-up that excess choice drives people insane. It's even more infuriating because half the shit here comes out of the same chute, into seven different labeled bags with difference price tags because the suburban boat dads need to feel like they're buying something better than the filthy poors.

          • invo_rt [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            excess choice drives people insane

            Can confirm. I experience real bad analysis paralysis when it comes to making consumer choices. It's multi-faceted. Part of it is being poor and wanting to ensure that whatever I do spent the limited amount of money I have on isn't going to fall apart immediately coupled with the vast amount of information available online and trying to sift through that to figure out what's a paid ad and what isn't.

  • cricbuzz [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Generally, people on this site will say not to entertain "debates" in general and that can be pretty good feedback.

    For your edification though, here are a few points to consider. These are all, pretty much taken from :parenti: 's Blackshirts and Reds or Against Empire

    • Question the premise. Is it true that soooo many people left? The US and the west ALWAYS play up any individuals that leave a "communist" or "socialist" country. In fact the US has a policy of mostly taking in refugees from these countries. The US rarely, if ever, takes in refugees from people fleeing their puppet regimes. It would make them look bad (Chile and much of South America is a great example)
    • Parenti does say we need to be honest with ways in which people in the Soviet Union were dissatisfied with not having access to "the latest fashions, or Jordans, or whatever the fuck materialist thing you want to put here". But he points out that once the Soviet Union was dissolved people yearned to have it back. They took for granted that their basic needs were taken care of. It should also be noted that the Soviet Union was driven to ramp up military spending early on due to the hostilities of the West. They would much rather have spent funds on other things, and even had discussions with the West about trying to dial back hostilities so they could devote efforts on things other than military spending. But the west said fuck you.
    • panopticon [comrade/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      In fact the US has a policy of mostly taking in refugees from these countries. The US rarely, if ever, takes in refugees from people fleeing their puppet regimes. It would make them look bad (Chile and much of South America is a great example)

      This is an excellent point that never exactly occurred to me in this way, for some reason

    • Rod_Blagojevic [none/use name]
      ·
      1 year ago

      The west said fuck you, and also spent vast amounts of money on military at the expense of its citizenry. There are people going hungry and freezing to death in the US.

  • Vingst [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    People want to move to the imperial core to get a share of the spoils. It's not like people in communist countries want to move to the places capitalism exploits the most. They aren't trying to escape communism to go work in a third-world sweatshop or mine.

    • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
      ·
      1 year ago

      People want to move to the imperial core to get a share of the spoils.

      I mean, there were plenty of spoils in Moscow and Budapest and Beijing and Belgrade.

  • ssjmarx [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    People leave their country for a million reasons, but every person who left the Soviet Union got lit up by the propaganda machine so we tend to think that way more people did it than actually did. The Soviets themselves put rules in place to try and prevent certain high-value people from leaving, like nuclear engineers, and this created a lot of friction between a certain class of professional and the state - but taken as a whole Soviet emigration wasn't much different than, say, American emigration today.

    edit: East Germany is a different story, along with German-speaking minorities being expelled from Eastern Europe after World War 2. With the power of hindsight I think it's safe to say that the East German authorities mishandled the situation and made things worse for a long time before it stabilized, which is why 1/5 of East Germans left the country - but it did stabilize, with emigration dropping precipitously after 1953 with Stalin's death.

  • RION [she/her]
    ·
    1 year ago

    If we're talking the Berlin Wall in specific, this passage from chapter 8 of William Blum's Killing Hope: US Military & CIA Interventions since WWII is very relevant.

    The Association of Political Refugees from the East, and the Investigating Committee of Freedom-minded Jurists of the Soviet Zone, were two of the other groups involved in the campaign against East Germany. The actions carried out by these operatives ran the spectrum from juvenile delinquency to terrorism; anything "to make the commies look bad". It added up to the following remarkable record:

    • through explosives, arson, short circuiting, and other methods they damaged power stations, shipyards, a dam, canals, docks, public buildings, gas stations, shops, a radio station, outdoor stands, public transportation;
    • derailed freight trains, seriously injuring workers; burned 12 cars of a freight train and destroyed air pressure hoses of others;
    • blew up road and railway bridges; placed explosives on a railway bridge of the Berlin-Moscow line but these were discovered in time—hundreds would have been killed;
    • used special acids to damage vital factory machinery; put sand in the turbine of a factory, bringing it to a standstill; set fire to a tile-producing factory; promoted work slow-downs in factories; stole blueprints and samples of new technical developments;
    • killed 7,000 cows of a co-operative dairy by poisoning the wax coating of the wire used to bale the cows' corn fodder;
    • added soap to powdered milk destined for East German schools;
    • raided and wrecked left-wing offices in East and West Berlin, stole membership lists; assaulted and kidnapped leftists and, on occasion, murdered them;
    • set off stink bombs to disrupt political meetings
    • floated balloons which burst in the air, scattering thousands of propaganda pamphlets down upon East Germans;
    • were in possession, when arrested, of a large quantity of the poison cantharidin with which it was planned to produce poisoned cigarettes to kill leading East Germans;
    • attempted to disrupt the World Youth Festival in East Berlin by sending out forged invitations, false promises of free bed and board, false notices of cancellations; carried out attacks on participants with explosives, firebombs, and tire-puncturing equipment; set fire to a wooden bridge on a main motorway leading to the festival;
    • forged and distributed large quantities of food ration cards—for example, for 60,000 pounds of meat—to cause confusion, shortages and resentment;
    • sent out forged tax notices and other government directives and documents to foster disorganization and inefficiency within industry and unions;
    • "gave considerable aid and comfort" to East Germans who staged an uprising on 17 June 1953; during and after the uprising, the US radio station in West Berlin, RIAS (Radio In the American Sector), issued inflammatory broadcasts into East Germany appealing to the populace to resist the government; RIAS also broadcast warnings to witnesses in at least one East German criminal case being monitored by the Investigating Committee of Freedom-minded Jurists of the Soviet Zone that they would be added to the committee's files of "accused persons" if they lied.

    Although many hundreds of the American agents were caught and tried by East Germany, the ease with which they could pass back and forth between the two sectors and infiltrate different enterprises without any language barrier provided opportunities for the CIA unmatched anywhere else in Eastern Europe.

    Throughout the 1950s, the East Germans and the Soviet Union repeatedly lodged complaints with the Soviets' erstwhile allies in the West and with the United Nations about specific sabotage and espionage activities and called for the closure of the offices in West Germany they claimed were responsible, and for which they provided names and addresses. Inevitably the East Germans began to tighten up entry into the country from the West.

    The West also bedeviled the East with a vigorous campaign of recruiting East German professionals and skilled workers. Eventually, this led to a severe labor and production crisis in the East, and in August 1961, to the building of the infamous Berlin Wall.

    The passage starts on page 61 of the pdf, and corresponding citations are on page 228.

  • robinn [none/use name]
    ·
    1 year ago

    For the GDR, see:

    1. "What You Should Know About the Wall"
    2. "The Berlin Wall: Another Cold War Myth" by William Blum (author of Killing Hope)

    For the Soviet Union, this is a thing you hear about many countries (Cuba and the DPRK for example). Since it's not accompanied by any data, you can simply say that people also immigrated to the USSR (or wherever else). This is equally valid. They don't know how many people immigrated to and from the Soviet Union, but they have an image cultivated by years of propaganda: so ask them. They'll be forced to tell you that they don't know. Then you will be done with it.

  • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    If you think a cheeky response would be suitable, "If America is so great, why are they moving to mexico in record numbers?" :

    https://www.businessinsider.com/number-of-people-moving-from-us-to-mexico-2019-5

    https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/us-citizens-moving-to-mx-record-numbers/

    Basically though, people move for lots of reasons, and the reasons and rates of movement can vary depending on national or global events. It helps if you can get them to narrow down a specific period of migration. That said, a lot of the time liberals are thinking about people leaving the USSR in the late 80's and early 90s as it was getting turbo-fucked by neoliberalism and being actively destroyed -- which, shockingly, was the major driver of people leaving at that time.

  • cawsby [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    The Stalin personality cult era after WWII when he was slipping off into dementia while suffering delusions doesn't really need to be defended. Even the USSR admonished Stalin for his mismanagement and cruelty.

    Emigration slowed down during the Khrushchev era, and then picked up again after the Afghanistan war debacle began unfolding. So it is not like it was constant either.

      • cawsby [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Stalin near the end had gone through half-a-dozen strokes, and was taking medical advice from a veterinarian.

        His suspicious nature went into full blown paranoia, and he pretty much lost it.

          • cawsby [he/him]
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Read it in a book long ago.

            Found an article with some of the keywords, but it is just the abstract. There are 10 sources for the paper though.

            https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-1331.1999.tb00004.x

            • Catradora__Stalinism [comrade/them,she/her]
              ·
              1 year ago

              He increasingly withdrew from official functions and he muttered menacingly to his close associates that it was time for another purge.

              Omg literally me

              based

        • LeninWalksTheWorld [any]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I agree, think stuff like the Leningrad Affair was incredibly stupid on Stalin's part. Like bruh you're gonna die soon anyway maybe don't purge thousands of your most popular cadres? Those guys would have been useful a few decades down the road.

          Party should have thanked Stalin for his service throughout the 30s and 40s and then forcibly retired him post war in favor of Malenkov. Instead they let his brain melt which gave the Khrushchevites an opportunity to trash his entire legacy for a little temporary popular support, all while compromising the greater ideological project.

          Hindsight is 20/20 and all though, and sticking with Stalin till death for stability's sake probably looked like the best option at the time after the most destructive war in human history

          • cawsby [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            After Stalin abandoned Lenin's internationalism and started promoting the socialism in one country model, it was mostly downhill. Even though Stalin executed most of the Nazbol leadership, he appropriated the same sort of Russian nationalism to drive support for the Winter War in Finland, which was an absolute disaster.

            The USSR's ideological project of international socialism ended with Lenin. Stalin went full hog nationalist and the USSR's socialist project never really recovered after Stalin's purges. Stalin eliminated 75% of the Comintern.

            Nikolay Bukharin who advocated for gradual changes in agricultural policies like collectivization would have been a much better leader imho. A trained economist who worked out models on decentralizing a command economy, he was one of the last purged by Stalin in the Great Purge.

              • cawsby [he/him]
                ·
                1 year ago

                Stalin purged many of the best socialists, scientists, and military officers that the USSR had to offer. Lenin stopped at the Mensheviks. Stalin's purges were wanton and directed mostly at Stalin's own personal enemies, not reactionaries.

                Stalin killed three quarters of the comintern, hardly a person who cared about internationalism.

                I don't care one iota about Trotsky, he had some good points during the revolution, but no idea how to form a coherent government.

                  • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    The entire membership of the Communist Party was therefore subjected to what is called a “cleansing” or “purge” in the presence of large audiences of their non-Communist fellow workers. (This is the only connection in which the Soviet people use the term “purge.” Its application by Americans to all the Soviet treason trials and in general to Soviet criminal procedure is resented by the Soviet people.) Each Communist had to relate his life history and daily activities in the presence of people who were in a position to check them. It was a brutal experience for an unpopular president of a Moscow university to explain to an examining board in the presence of his students why he merited the nation’s trust. Or for a superintendent of the large plant to expose his life history and daily activities — even to his wife’s use of one of the factory automobiles for shopping — in the presence of the plants workers, any one of whom had the right to make remarks. This was done with every Communist throughout the country; it resulted in the expulsion of large numbers from the party, and in the arrest and trial of a few.

                    Strong, Anna L. The Soviets Expected It. New York, New York: The Dial press, 1941, p. 136

                    The purge–in Russian “chiska” (cleansing)–is a long-standing institution of the Russian Communist Party. The first one I encountered was in 1921, shortly after Lenin had introduced “NEP,” his new economic policy, which involved a temporary restoration of private trade and petty capitalism and caused much heart burning amongst his followers. In that purge nearly one-third of the total membership of the party was expelled or placed on probation. To the best of my recollection, the reasons then put forward for expulsion or probation were graft, greed, personal ambition, and “conduct unbecoming to communists,” which generally meant wine, women, and song.

                    Duranty, Walter. The Kremlin and the People. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 116

                    Kirov’s murder brought a change, but even so the Purge that was held that winter was at first not strikingly different from earlier Purges.

                    Duranty, Walter. The Kremlin and the People. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 116

                    The Central Committee organized a “purge” and expelled barely 170,000 members in order to improve the party quality. Stalin has frequently been held responsible for the “purge.” He was not its author. This party-cleansing was done under Lenin’s leadership. It is a process which is unique in the history of little parties. The Bolsheviks however, do not regard it as an extraordinary measure for use only in a time of crisis, but a normal feature of party procedure. It is the means of guaranteeing Bolshevik quality. To regard it as a desperate move on the part of leaders anxious to get rid of rivals is to misunderstand how profoundly the Bolshevik party differs from all others, even from the Communist Party’s of the rest of Europe.

                    Murphy, John Thomas. Stalin, London, John Lane, 1945, p. 144

                    Lenin initiated the first great “cleansing” of the Bolshevik party just as the transition had begun from “war communism” to the new economic policy. In 1922, when, as Lenin put it, “the party had rid itself of the rascals, bureaucrats, dishonest or waivering Communists, and of Mensheviks who have re-painted their facade but who remained Mensheviks at heart,” another Congress took place; and it was this Congress which advanced Stalin to the key position of Bolshevik power. It brought him into intimate contact with every functionary of the organization, enabling him to examine their work as well as their ideas. Murphy, John Thomas. Stalin, London, John Lane, 1945, p. 145

                    The party maintains its quality by imposing a qualifying period before granting full membership, and by periodical ” cleanings” of those who fail to live up to the high standard set.

                    Murphy, John Thomas. Stalin, London, John Lane, 1945, p. 169

                    In all fairness I must add that no small proportion of the exiles were allowed to return home and resume their jobs after the Purge had ended.

                    Duranty, Walter. The Kremlin and the People. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 122

                    Besides examining Communists against whom definite complaints are made, the Control Commission at long intervals resorts to wholesale “purges” of the Party. In 1929 it was decided to institute such a purge, with a view to checking up on the rapid numerical growth of the Party, which has been increasing at the rate of about 200,000 a year during the last few years, and eliminating undesirable elements. It was estimated in advance that about 150,000 Communists, or 10 percent of the total membership (including the candidates) would be expelled during this process. In a purge every party member, regardless of whether any charges have been preferred against him or not, must appear before representatives of the Control Commission and satisfy them that he is a sound Communist in thought and action. In the factories non-party workers are sometimes called on to participate in the purge by offering judgment on the Communists and pointing out those who are shkurniki or people who look after their own skins, a familiar Russian characterization for careerists.

                    Chamberlin, William Henry. Soviet Russia. Boston: Little, Brown, 1930, p. 68

                    From time to time the party “cleans out” its membership, and this is always done an open meetings to which all workers of the given institution are invited. Each communist in the institution must give before this public an extended account of his life activities, submit to and answer all criticism, and prove before the assembled workers his fitness to remain in the “leading Party.” Members may be cleaned out not only as “hostile elements, double-dealers, violators of discipline, deganerates, career-seekers, self-seekers, morally degraded persons” but even for being merely “passive,” for having failed to keep learning and growing in knowledge and authority among the masses.

                    Strong, Anna Louise. This Soviet World. New York, N. Y: H. Holt and company, c1936, p. 31

                    I have in the course of 15 years in the Soviet Union met an occasional Communist who was a grafter, and many more who were stubborn bureaucrats and unenlightened fanatics. But I have also seen how the party throws out dead wood–not always accurately–and renews itself from the working class it leads.

                    Strong, Anna Louise. This Soviet World. New York, N. Y: H. Holt and company, c1936, p. 37

                    It would be a mistake to regard the 1933 chistka as having been directed solely against members of the opposition. The largest single group expelled were “passive” party members: those carried on the roles but not participating in party work. Next came violators of party discipline, bureaucrats, corrupt officials, and those who had hidden past crimes. Members of dissident groups did not even figure in the final tallies. Stalin himself characterized the purge has a measure against bureaucratism, red tape, deganerates, and careerists, “to raise the level of organizational leadership.” The vast majority of those expelled were fresh recruits who had entered the party since 1929, rather than Old Bolshevik oppositionists. Nevertheless, the 1933 purge expelled about 18 percent of the party’s members and must be seen as a hard-line policy or signal from Moscow.

                    Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror. New Haven, Conn.: Yale Univ. Press, c1999, p. 127

                    “Not everyone who wishes can belong to the party,” said Stalin; “it is not given to everyone to brave its labors and its torments.”

                    Barbusse, Henri. Stalin. New York: The Macmillan company, 1935, p. 280

                    Western students have applied the word “purge” to everything from political trials to police terror to nonpolitical expulsions from the party. The label “Great Purges,” which encompasses practically all party activities between 1933 and 1939, is an example of such broad usage. Yet the Communist Party defined and used the word quite specifically. The term “purge” (chistka–a sweeping or cleaning) only applied to the periodic membership screenings of the ranks of the party. These membership operations were designed to weed the party of hangers-on, nonparticipants, drunken officials, and people with false identification papers, as well as ideological “enemies” or “aliens.” In the majority of purges, political crimes or deviations pertained to a minority of those expelled. No Soviet source or usage ever referred to the Ezhovshchina (the height of police arrests and terror in 1937) as a purge, and party leaders discussed that event and purges in entirely separate contexts. No political or nonpolitical trial was ever called a purge, and under no circumstances were operations, arrests, or terror involving nonparty citizens referred to as purges. A party member at the time would have been mystified by such a label.

                    Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 38

                    It is to these operations [periodic cleansings] and not to trials, arrests, or prosecutions, that the Soviet usage of the term “purge” applies. The 1919 operation was called pereregistratsiia, “reregistration.” The 1921 purge, and each subsequent purge, was called proverka (verification) or chistka (a cleaning, cleaning out, combing out, or sweeping). For consistency and accuracy, the term “purge” will be applied below only to a membership-accounting operation.

                    Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 40

                    • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
                      ·
                      1 year ago

                      The reasons for which one could be expelled in a purge varied throughout the ’20s, but there were some constant themes. One category consistently marked for expulsion was that of “class-alien,” “counter-revolutionary,” or “hostile” elements. This group of offenders included former officers (but not always soldiers) of the White Armies, “regenerate bourgeois elements,” kulaks, and other elements of the pre-revolutionary power structure. There was no official stricture against persons of bourgeois or kulak origin entering the party, as long as such origins were not kept secret. Hiding one’s origins, however, was always grounds for expulsion. Another category for expulsion was that encompassing official misconduct or corruption. This might be phrased “acts unworthy of a party member,” “violations of party discipline,” or “self-seeking careerism” in cases of continued violations. This “abuse of position” category often included theft, embezzlement, and the like. A third group of offenses providing grounds for expulsion centered on nonparticipation or “passivity.” This group always accounted for a large percentage of those expelled in a purge, as did a fourth group–the morally corrupt. Offenses such as drunkenness, sexual crimes, and financial corruption were taken as signs of “personal corruption.”

                      Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 41

                      The largest of these operations was the 1921 purge following the Civil War, which expelled one in four party members. At no time in the 20s did an all-union purge embrace even one-half that rate of expulsion.

                      Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 45

                      If 1929 is typical of a 1920s-era purge in its causes and criteria for expulsion, then membership operations seem to have been implemented to rid the party of corrupt, inactive, undisciplined, class-alien, or criminal persons. The idea was to “clean” the party of those who were not full-time, dedicated, honest party members according to Lenin’s strict code. It was not done, at least explicitly, to rid the party of all ideological dissenters or suspected oppositionists…. Nationally, 1,530,000 members went through the 1929 purge. Of these, 170,000 (or 11 percent) were expelled. Subsequently, however, 37,000 of these expellees (22 percent of them) were reinstated into the party on appeal. In Smolensk, the figure was 43 percent restored to membership and in Voronezh 33 percent. These readmissions eventually reduced the impact of the 1929 purge from 11 to 8% nationally and comprised the greatest number of reversals for a purge to date. Subsequent clarifications show that the vast majority of those reinstated to membership had been expelled for “passivity” (nonparticipation) and that most of these were rank-and-file members of working-class origin.

                      Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 47

                      Accordingly, the party was to purge itself in 1933 of the following categories:

                      1. Class-alien, hostile elements who try to deceitfully demoralize the party
                      2. Double dealers, who deceitfully undermine party policy
                      3. Violators of discipline who fail to carry out party decisions and who are pessimistic about the “the impractibility” of party measures
                      4. Deganerates who merged with and do not struggle against kulaks, loafers, thieves, etc..
                      5. Careerists and self-seekers who are isolated from the masses and disregard the needs of people
                      6. Moral deganerates whose unseemly behavior discredit the party

                      These categories were slightly more ideological than those for the 1929 purge. There was more emphasis on “double dealers,” “underminers,” and “violators of discipline” who refused to “struggle against the kulak,” but the main focus of the 1933 chistka was on weeding out undesirables who had flooded the party since 1929 and not on persecuting members of the opposition, many of whose leaders remained in the party.

                      Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 49

                      The chistka of 1933 was to take place in a “comradely atmosphere,” was to tolerate no “petty and captious digging into the personal lives of people,” and was not to be used to settle personal accounts. Local purge officials were warned not to expel large numbers of rank-and-file members on such flimsy pretexts as “passivity” or simple political illiteracy. The 1933 announcement enjoined those conducting the purge to take into account the “overall development” of the member–not to try to trick him or her with technical questions on the intricacies of the party program and not to expel loyal workers and collective farmers just because they had not had time to improve their level of ideological education. Moreover, a member found to lack sufficient political knowledge (or discipline) was to be reduced from a member to a candidate, or from a candidate member to a sympathizer, reflecting an attempt to prevent some of the abuses encountered in 1929 relating to unjustified expulsions.

                      Getty, A. Origins of the Great Purges. Cambridge, N. Y.: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1985, p. 50

                      As head of the Control Commission, Yezhov now became responsible for overseeing the purges, the operations within the party to remove anyone unworthy of membership. Exactly what that phrase [purges] meant is hotly debated in the West; as noted, one point of view argues that Stalin aimed to crank up political tension and root out political opponents in 1935-36; another maintains that the purges were not largely political operations but, rather, mundane housecleaning, through which party members who had demonstrated incompetence or lack of interest in socialist affairs were removed.

                      Thurston, Robert. Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia, 1934-1941. New Haven: Yale University Press, c1996, p. 28

                      These documents suggest that the situation was ripe for a new party purge, and this is precisely what was announced in January 1933. Member categories subject to expulsion were specified: class-alien elements and enemies, “two-faced ones”–that is, those who say they are for but are actually against the basic party line–those who openly and covertly violate strict party discipline, those who jabber about the lack of realism in prescribed party plans, careerists, self-seekers, morally depraved members, and politically ignorant members unfamiliar with party rules, regulations, and programs. In the course of the purge, 18 percent of the party’s members were expelled, and a further 15 percent left the party out of fear.

                      Siegelbaum and Sokolov. Stalinism As a Way of Life. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, c2000, p. 125

                      On the party purge–April 28, 1933 On the basis of this Comintern directive our party conducted a party re-registration in 1920, a party purge in 1921, a purge of non-production cells in 1924, a verification of village cells in 1925, and a purge in 1929-30. As is known, these purges and re-registrations reinforced the ranks of our party, improved its fighting efficiency, and intensified the feeling of responsibility of each party member for the work of the party. The function of the party purge is to elevate the ideological level of the party members, to strengthen the party politically and organizationally, and further to intensify the confidence in the party of the millions of non-party masses. During a purge this task is accomplished: (a) by the open and honest self-criticism of party members and members of party organizations, (b) by verifying the work of each party cell to ascertain how it has executed decisions and instructions of the party, (c) by involving the toiling non-party masses in the purge, and (d) by ridding the party of those persons who have not justified the lofty name of party member.

                      McNeal, Robert. Resolutions and Decisions of the CPSU–The Stalin Years: 1929-1953. Vol. 3. Toronto, Buffalo: University of Toronto Press, 1974, p. 125

                      In Soviet Party history a ‘purge’ refers to a membership screening designed to rid the Party of lackadaisical, theoretically backward, ill disciplined, passive, opportunist, and so on, members. Purges were implemented either by a process of systematic expulsions organized by special ‘purge’ commissions, or by local Party leaders, in which charges were brought against unreliable members, or by a process of validation or exchange of Party cards in which members had to prove themselves. Such ‘purges’ had been a regular part of Party life since 1919. Interestingly, the Party purges of 1935 and 1937 resulted in significantly fewer expulsions than the previous four purges that had taken place in 1919, 1921, 1929, and 1933. All the purges mainly affected rank and file party members.

                      Szymanski, Albert. Human Rights in the Soviet Union. London: Zed Books, 1984, p. 229

                      • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
                        ·
                        1 year ago

                        Communist Party membership involved both special obligations and access to special benefits such as jobs (reserved for politically reliable people), as well as a certain prestige. As a result many people secured and maintained membership in the Party for other reasons than agreement with the Party’s goals and political activism; many people even secured Party cards illlegally…. The periodic purges (1919, 1921, 1929, 1933, 1935, 1937) were all designed to deal with this problem and, in the words of Party instructions, were directed to ensure ‘iron proletarian discipline in the Party and to cleanse the Party’s ranks of all unreliable, unstable, and hanger-on elements. ‘In the 1919 ‘re-registration’ 10-15% of the Party’s total membership lost their Party cards; in the 1921 Party purge 25%; in the 1929 purge, 11% (25 percent of whom were reinstated after appeals); in the 1933 chistka 17% were expelled; in the 1935 proverka 9%; and in the famous 1937 Ezhovshchina again about 9% (the 1935 and 1937 purges were the smallest in terms of numbers affected). The decree setting up the rules of the 1933 validation of Party members specified that all Party members must present themselves before open proceedings (attended by both Party and non-Party members), give an account of the facts of their lives, explain how they fulfilled Party tasks, and discuss the efforts made to raise their ‘ideological and theoretical level.’ Each member was then questioned by the validation commissioners and by rank and file Party and non-Party members.

                        Szymanski, Albert. Human Rights in the Soviet Union. London: Zed Books, 1984, p. 230

                        …The problem of inactive and irresponsible Party members, as well as the loose system of controls over membership, was largely a result of the emphasis, during the 1920s, on the recruitment of large numbers of working-class members, with little attention given to criteria other than class background. In the membership screening of 1929, 22% were expelled for ‘defects in personal conduct,’ 17% for passivity, 12% for criminal offenses (mostly involvement in petty crimes), 10% for violations of Party discipline (which includes those accused of factional activity) and 17% for being ‘alien elements’ or having lied about class background. Similarly in the 1933 chistka, in which 15% were expelled for personal deganeracy, 14% for violating Party discipline, 16% for political reasons, including concealing class background, and 18% for abuse of position. According to Rigby’s analysis of the 1933 membership screening, “… political considerations play a relatively small part in this sample of expulsions, however, and the great majority were removed either because they made unscrupulous use of their Party membership to secure personal benefits, were immoral, or undisciplined in their personal lives or at their job, or simply failed to participate in Party activities.”

                        Data for the 1935 purge (which occurred immediately after the Kirov assassination) reveals that the reasons for expulsions were similar to those in the pre-1934 membership screenings; more than 20% were expelled for petty crimes or ‘moral turpitude,’ and most of the remainder for political passivity, ‘deganeracy’ or abuse of position. To quote Getty: “The information on the incidence of the proverka suggests that it was not a hysterical, political witchhunt, in which helpless rank-and-file Party members fell in droves for the slightest infraction. Rather, it seems that the proverka of 1935 was more careful, and less political, in that there is evidence of investigation and of a policy in which a consistent pattern of problems or violations was necessary for expulsion.”

                        Results for one city in the Smolensk Region show that only 18% of the members against whom charges have been brought were actually expelled, and less than one-third of those formally criticized at meetings received any form of disciplinary treatment at all. The records of the Smolensk City Party Committee reveal that 7% were expelled for passivity, 21% were being petty criminals or deganerates, or corrupt; 28% for un-trustworthiness, 22% for being ‘class alien persons’ who had hidden their class origins, and only 8% for political unreliability. Undoubtedly there was a higher percentage of expulsions for political reasons in the 1937 purge owing to the hysteria engendered by the spy and ‘wrecker’ mania current at the time. Nevertheless, given the results of previous purges, especially that of 1935, there’s no doubt that the reasons for the majority of purges were not political.

                        Szymanski, Albert. Human Rights in the Soviet Union. London: Zed Books, 1984, p. 231

                        IN SHORT, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE WHOSE PARTY CARDS WERE WITHDRAWN BOTH IN THE PRE AND POST 1934 MEMBERSHIP SCREENINGS WERE EXPELLED NOT FOR ASSOCIATION WITH ANY POLITICAL OPPOSITION, BUT RATHER FOR BEING ‘CAREERISTS,’ ‘OPPORTUNISTS, ‘ ILL-DISCIPLINED, ‘DEGANERATES,’ POLITICALLY PASSIVE, ‘POLITICALLY ILLITERATE,’ ‘WEAK WILLED,’ AND SO ON.

                        Szymanski, Albert. Human Rights in the Soviet Union. London: Zed Books, 1984, p. 232

                        A member of the Communist Party becomes such not only through his own selection, but by the approval of the working class among whom he lives and toils. Not only must he come with recommendations from older party members of from 5 to 10 years standing, recommendations taken so seriously that a member may be expelled for endorsing an unworthy candidate. Not only must he undergo a period of probation ranging from one to two years, but admission may be refused, or a member once admitted may be expelled not only by the judgment of other Communists, but in response to accusations from non-party workers as well. The list of offenses for which expulsion is possible include not merely “alien elements, double dealers, breakers of discipline, moral deganerates, careerists, self-seekers,” but even “passive elements who do not carry out their duties and who have not mastered the program, rules, and most important decisions of the party.” Steady, consistent efforts are made to improve the quality of membership and to weed out through the periodical “cleansing’s” the unfit material. It is the common requirement made of all applicants for membership in the Communist Party who may be engaged in intellectual or office work, that they spend a year or two in “social work” in some large factory, before even making their application for membership, and are judged by the workers’ view of their capacity to lead. A member who ceases to interpret and lead the workers around him, or who has merely become passive in this task, may be disciplined up to the point of rejection from the party. And this may happen not only to individual members, but to whole “city committees” if a situation develops which shows that they have failed to interpret and lead the masses…. Members of the party have their regular jobs by which they earn their living; they may be machine hands or People’s Commissars. But their unpaid job as party members takes precedence over every other work, and of all family relations. At the very least they must expect to give several evenings a week to routine “party work,” in some of the multitudinous, unexciting tasks of organizing masses in industry and government. This may be some dull job like collecting trade union duties, assembling material for a wall newspaper, checking up subscriptions to government loans; it may also include leading groups of youth or teaching classes in politics.

                        Strong, Anna Louise. Dictatorship and Democracy in the Soviet Union. New York: International Pamphlets, 1934, p. 11-12

                        [At the 13th Congress of the Party in May 1924 Stalin stated] Preobrazhensky’s profound mistake is his failure to understand that the Party cannot strengthen its ranks without periodical purges of unstable elements. Comrade Lenin taught us that the Party can strengthen itself only if it steadily rids itself of the unstable elements which penetrate, and will continue to penetrate, its ranks. We would be going against Leninism if we were to repudiate Party purges in general. As for the present purge, what is wrong with it? It is said that individual mistakes have been made. Certainly they have. But has there ever been a big undertaking that was free from individual mistakes? Never. Individual mistakes may and will occur; but in the main the purge is correct. The chief thing about the purge is that it makes people of this kind feel that there exists a master, that there is the Party, which can call them to account for all sins committed against it. It seems to me absolutely necessary that this master go through the Party ranks with a broom every now and again.

                        Stalin, Joseph. Works. Moscow: Foreign Languages Pub. House, 1952, Vol. 6, p. 239-240

                        • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          1 year ago

                          The first of the 1930s purges, in 1933, was officially justified by the need to reduce the number of Party numbers, which had almost tripled by the often unregulated admission of new and poorly motivated members. However, the decree from the Central Committee ordering it gave a list of reprehensible offenses, allowing action to be taken against a good many officials. Alongside elements with “alien” social backgrounds, it was aimed at “double-dealers” who swore oaths of allegiance to the Party line but worked for its failure, those who broke the “iron discipline” by not carrying out their duties or discrediting the plans through calling them impossible, “renegades” who had “closed ranks with bourgeois elements” and did not struggle against embezzlers, “careerists, self-seekers and bureaucratic elements” who neglected the interests of the people and used their power to make profits, and finally “moral deganerate” who brought the party into disrepute. It was not by chance that local officials were accused of trying to sabotage the purge and save their friends. It was the so-called “passive elements,” one category the official instructions did not mention, who were purged in great numbers. Most of these were workers. This practice caught on, and the new Party rules approved by the 17th Congress added “passive elements” to the list of categories to be purged.

                          Rittersporn, Gabor. Stalinist Simplifications and Soviet Complications, 1933-1953. New York: Harwood Academic Publishers, c1991, p. 44

                          The general criteria for the purging of party members were corruption, passivity, breaches of party discipline, alcoholism, criminality and anti-Semitism. For bourgeois individuals and kulaks who hid their class origin expulsion was certain. (But not for those who had been accepted into the party and who had admitted their class background.) For the former tsarist officers who hid their past were also inevitably expelled. All those who had been expelled could in their turn appeal to the Central control commission, and then their cases were reviewed at a higher level.

                          Sousa, Mario. The Class Struggle During the Thirties in the Soviet Union, 2001.

                          The “purges” (in Russian, chistki or “cleansings”) were periodic attempts by the central CPSU leadership, the Central Committee and the Politburo, to find out who was in the Party, and to strengthen it organizationally. they never included imprisonment (much less executions), and only rarely resulted in many expulsions; the “purges” of the 1930s resulted in even fewer expulsions than those of the 1920s had. They were not aimed at rooting out oppositionists (supporters of Trotsky, Bukharin, or any of the other ex-opposition groupings of the 1920s), but rather at getting rid of the dissolute, drunks, careerists, and others who clearly had no place in a disciplined Communist party.

                          “Cleaning House in the Bolshevik Party,” Progressive Labor Magazine, Vol. 14, No. 1 (Spring 1981), pp. 70-73.

                          [11 August 1936 memorandum from Kotelnikov to Dimitrov, Manuilsky, and Moskvin about the work of exposing “the wreckers in the ECCI,”] During the exchange of party documents, four members and three candidate members of our organization were expelled from the party. The reason for the expulsion of Gurevich, Gurianov, and Neibut was their affiliation with Trotskyism in 1923 and 1927, and [their] concealment of this during the verification of party documents. Nikolaeva [was expelled] for continuing to defend the innocence of her husband who had been arrested and sentenced to 10 years for wrecking. Candidate members: Romanov [was expelled] for being a moral deganerate [he was married five times] and for violating [the rules of] conspiracy; Arakcheev, for concealing from the party the fact of the arrest and exile of his father, an active SR;….

                          Chase, William J., Enemies Within the Gates?, translated by Vadim A. Staklo, New Haven: Yale University Press, c2001, p. 138.

                          The Party must Purge and Struggle, Says Lenin

                          Under the title What Is to Be Done? Lenin included a letter from Lassalle of June 24,1852: “party struggles give a party strength and life. The best proof of the weakness of a party is its diffusness and its blurring of clear-cut differences…. A party becomes stronger by purging itself.”

                          Schuman, Frederick L. Soviet Politics. New York: A.A. Knopf, 1946, p. 37

                          After the victory of the revolution, when the Communist party had become the ruling party, the party leadership and Lenin had to acknowledge that some unwelcome elements had penetrated into the party and state apparatus. They were people who wanted to make a career via a membership in the party. At the eighth party conference in December of 1919 Lenin brought this problem up. According to Lenin “It is natural, on the one hand, that all the worst elements should cling to the ruling party merely because it is the ruling party.” For that reason it was important to evaluate the contribution of the party members. On the proposal of Lenin, the party carried out a re-registration of all party members. Every member had to answer for his actions in front of the member collective; those who were considered unreliable were excluded. That was the first purification of the party apparatus. This method, to strengthen the party by purging the opportunistic elements, was to characterise the Communist party for many years to come.

                          Sousa, Mario. The Class Struggle during the Thirties in the Soviet Union, 2001.

                  • cawsby [he/him]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Lenin's period of most intense purging - The Red Terror - was a blip compared to Stalin's purges.

                    Lenin's purges might have killed somewhere around 50-100k from 1917-1922. That millions died from the Red Terror was propaganda picked up in Western media at the time, and has been largely discredited. Also at the time, Western countries, Japan, and even Nationalist China were openly working against the USSR with saboteurs and spies hoping to crush the nascent communist experiment from spreading. That doesn't even include the actual White Army remnants who had designs of continuing the Russian Civil War, which could have caused millions of more deaths if a civil war were to reignite.

                    Stalin had at least 750k shot as enemies of the state from 1929-1953 - we have paperwork. That does not even include death from forced labor or gulags. Stalin's purges of the armed forces leadership during the 1930's probably caused millions of extra deaths of Soviet soldiers during WWII because of a dearth of good military officers.

                    Lenin's Red Terror, like it or not, cleaned up a lot of problems left over after the fragile success of the Russian Revolution. Stalin's purges were largely directed at enemies of Stalin, not the State.

                  • Alaskaball [comrade/them]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    …The picture is clearly not a simple one of Stalin, as despot, getting rid of his enemies. It is a complex picture, combining the acts of many groups. Stalin’s responsibility was that, being “distrustful and suspicious”–a not unnatural state in a man whose close friend has been assassinated and who has heard in open court that his own assassination was planned–he appointed Yezhov, gave orders to hurry up the investigations and sentences, and devised the theory that enemies multiplied as socialism nears success. Yezhov, later found to be a madman, gave the affective orders. The Central Committee, convinced by Stalin’s argument and Yezhov’s reports, also approved the acts. The actual initiators, as stated by Khrushchev, were “provocateurs”–i.e., agents of Nazi-fascism–and “conscienceless careerists”–i.e., men who invented plots to advance their own jobs. This analysis by Khrushchev does not greatly differ from that of my exiled friend, who said that the Nazi fifth-column “penetrated high in the GPU and arrested the wrong people.”… The Soviet investigators who are reviewing the cases will, I think, eventually get to the bottom of them. They will find the key, most probably, in actual, extensive penetration of the GPU by a Nazi fifth-column, in many actual plots, and in the impact of these on a highly suspicious man who saw his own assassination plotted and believed he was saving the Revolution by drastic purge.

                    Strong, Anna Louise. The Stalin Era. New York: Mainstream, 1956, p. 68

                    Yet more: in this great purge the fact was established that the German, Japanese, and Polish espionage services had wormed their way far into Russia, gaining access to the highest circles. The Deputy People’s Commissar for Agriculture, a Galacian Ukrainian, proved to have been for many years a Polish spy. The Soviet ambassador in Turkey, Karakhan, was shot as a German spy…. Karakhan fell into the hands of a beautiful German woman, and as a result into the hands of the Hitlerist intelligence service.

                    Basseches, Nikolaus. Stalin. London, New York: Staples Press, 1952, p. 304

                    Another important personality, though not so famous, was Boris Steiger, the official head of the foreign section of the Fine Arts Department. In reality he was an important representative of the secret police for liaison with the foreign diplomats, and an influential adviser of the Foreign Ministry. The Japanese had found out something compromising in his past, and had blackmailed him. He became a Japanese spy. He, too, was shot. Thus there had been discovered a whole series of high officials who had been carrying out espionage for foreign Powers. A morbid fear of espionage spread over Russia. Large numbers of foreigners, the remainder of the foreign specialists in the Soviet Union, and Communist refugees from Hitler, were arrested, some on suspicion of espionage, others because they were supposed to be in close touch with members of the Russian opposition.

                    Basseches, Nikolaus. Stalin. London, New York: Staples Press, 1952, p. 305

                    It has not been realized in the world outside the Soviet Union that in these trials of 1936 to 1938 the most widespread conspiracy in the world’s history came to judgment. In that conspiracy were involved not only ex-leaders of the party and a former head of the government, but also fully a dozen members of the Government who were still in office, and the supreme commander of the army, the Chief of Staff, almost all the army commanders, and in addition a considerable number of senior officers; the Minister of Police and the highest police officials; the Deputy People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs, almost all the ambassadors and ministers representing the Soviet Union abroad, almost the whole of the diplomatic staff of the ministry in Moscow; and also highly-placed judges and members of the governments of the federal republics.

                    Basseches, Nikolaus. Stalin. London, New York: Staples Press, 1952, p. 308

                    … but power was passing altogether from Stalin to a still somewhat nebulous motley of adventurers, militarists, and political police bosses and imperialists. They already were sufficiently strong to hold up a decision of the Government. When we had all returned to Karlshorst, I was visited in my office by a comrade standing very high indeed. For though powerless still to overthrow the regime, we revolutionary Democrats were by this time strong enough to have our men in many key places.

                    Tokaev, Grigori. Comrade X. London: Harvill Press,1956, p. 354 (Personal note: Traitor, anti-communist, and former Soviet Air Forces Colonel Grigori Tokaev here in his book admitted not only the existence of underground opposition groups against the Soviet government but also admitted his own membership and that the membership of counter-revolutionaries penetrated all levels of Soviet Society)

                    At least in the official rhetoric of the day, not a great deal distinguished “spies” from White Guards, kulaks, Trotskyites, and Zinovievites. From the Stalinist viewpoint, they may have operated from different perspectives, but they were all seen as threats to the USSR. Considered this way, the 43,072 discovered in these categories up until December 1935 was large, especially considering that many of these people had held responsible posts. Imagine the outcry, and the fear, if in 1948 the FBI had announced that more than 40,000 enemies of the United States had been discovered operating inside the country’s ruling bodies. The allegation that one person, Alger Hiss, had been a Soviet agent was enough to send America into a minor frenzy, even though our enemies were on the other sides of the oceans. Forty thousand real and desperate foes, all presumably busy recruiting others, could inflict tremendous damage on any country.

                    Thurston, Robert. Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia, 1934-1941. New Haven: Yale University Press, c1996, p. 31

                    There is one important earlier case generally recognized as that of a genuine spy– Konar, who became Assistant People’s Commissar of Agriculture until accidentally exposed. He was a Polish agent who had been given the papers of a dead Red Army soldier in 1920, and in ten years had thus risen high in the hierarchy, until exposed by someone who chanced to have seen the real Konar.

                    Conquest, Robert. he Great Terror. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990, p. 270

                    [At the Feb. March 1937 Plenum Stalin stated]: Comrades! From the reports and discussions held previously at the plenum, it is obvious that we have here a problem that could be characterized by three basic facts. First–the harmful and diversionary espionage of foreign country agents, in whose ranks the Trotskyites played a very active part. They managed to involve practically all of our organizations to a greater or lesser degree industrial, administrative, and party organizations. Secondly–agents of foreign countries, including Trotskyites, have managed to worm themselves not only into the lower party organs, but also they managed to get some top ranking posts in the government and party. Thirdly–some of our leading comrades, in the Central Committee and in regions of the country, not only were not able to expose these agents, diversionists, spies, and assassins, but they became unwilling tools in this anti-State work and even unknowingly appointed some of these agents to responsible positions. These are undeniable facts, according to the reports and documents that we heard during this plenum.

                    Lucas and Ukas. Trans. and Ed. Secret Documents. Toronto, Canada: Northstar Compass, 1996, p. 227

            • LeninWalksTheWorld [any]
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I'd agree generally. One of the most difficult obstacles for global communists to overcome in the last century is that Stalin tied the project of building communism (globally) with the national interests of the USSR. A lot of communists obviously didn't feel very comfortable with letting internationalism take a back seat to just always supporting Moscow and let the capitalists do the whole "reds are traitors who want to sell out their nation" propaganda a lot more effectively. The Sino-Soviet Split is another example of this, where Russian national interests won out over international solidarity.

              Though about Bukharin, I can't say for sure how things would have turned out if he and the Right Opposition came out on top in the power struggle. I really like Bukharin personality, he seems like a good guy, smart too. Things like collectivization would have been more "relaxed" under him than Stalin definitely, and he probably would have been able to just bribe the peasant kulaks into cooperating rather than going full class liquidation on them like Stalin. I bet Bukharin economy would have likely been really impressive if it was allowed time and space to develop since he seemed to understand in a Marxist sense that Russia didn't get the benefit of prior capitalist accumulation and could do more to address that than just brute forcing the problem with massive, labor-intensive projects like Stalin did (with terrible health and safety regulations as well)

              The major issue is that you still have the fuckin Nazi invasion happening in the 1940s, and without Stalin's aggressive campaign of industrialization it's possible a Bukharinist USSR just gets rolled over and genocided if that slower paced industrialization campaign means a weaker war economy. Things got pretty close a few times even with a hard ass like Stalin in charge. Plus to be fair in that global situation, stoking nationalism against foreign invaders does make sense even if it's not strictly communist.

              That's one of the modern arguments modern Russians like to use to defend Stalin at least. They say "Bukharin would have dragged out collectivization until the 1950s, so we would have lost the Great Patriotic War and all died." But whose to say WW2 even goes the same way with Bukharin running things. It's possible Bukharin's more "lenient" leadership could have convinced the west to actually negotiate collective security agreement against Nazi Germany in good faith. Then the Nazis could be stopped at Sudetenland if something like the Franco-Soviet Mutual Assistance Treaty was taken seriously.

              historical possibilities of that period of time are really fascinating

        • RION [she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          “Had Mao died in 1956, his achievements would have been immortal. Had he died in 1966, he would still have been a great man but flawed. But he died in 1976. Alas, what can one say?”

  • Antoine_St_Hexubeary [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    If the USSR wanted to keep workers in, that means it understood that it couldn't function without them. Does your current country act like it understands this?

  • Torenico [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    maybe the wall was not there to keep the people in but to keep the capitalists out?

  • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    No need to. It was a debilitated zone. It probably sucked there alot of the time. What any number of people might want to do doesn't show what action was correct or just or whatever. Why does the US not let people leave without papers? Just how things are done mostly.

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      1 year ago

      US doesn't require exit visas afaik, only a few countries do.

      • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Depends on where you are going. They do have the power to not let you leave. So maybe I put it imprecisly

  • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    All the arguments used for "Failing USSR" are also applied to "Failing New York" and "Failing California".

    If the United States is so great, why did Edward Snowden move to Moscow? If Texas is so great, why is Elon Musk still spending all his time in San Fransisco?