https://twitter.com/Kal1699/status/1629349179762851841?s=20
Some lefists claim without the military there can be no revolution and that militaries are generally made up of working class folks who are just as frustrated as the rest of us
I mean its a good argument, it's just too bad the US military is the exception to that rule, the US capitalist class and their military establishment are not stupid
Most members of the military come from middle-class neighborhoods. The middle three quintiles for household income were overrepresented among enlisted recruits, and the top and bottom quintiles were underrepresented. Council of foreign relations
There's also no draft, no poltical access to military bases which act as glorified gated communities, insulating the working class service members in a simulation of middle class American achievement
The US military police and intelligence service is also oversized in comparison to other militaries and they're ideologically trained, it's like socialists in the 19th century advising the left to recruit the British military, even then with drafts available it would have been a ludicrous idea on its face
Now if we were talking about ex-troops we may have something there, but even then you still need activated troops with access to arms to pull a revolution off
Basically Thrid Worldists win yet again :spongebob-party:
This- the US military has spent the last 70 or so years figuring out how to get people to kill for them, which requires instilling ideological loyalty and a belief that what you're doing as someone in the military is right. Add to that benefits that you'd be guaranteed from birth in a regular, sane society, and you get a legion of people whose interests are genuinely counter-revolutionary at best.
You can easily tell if someone is truly seeking redemption by the way they react when people don't forgive them immediately just because they say "war bad, actually". Redemption is about doing the right thing to correct your past sins even if others no longer trust you, and forgiveness is up to the people you victimized and betrayed.
As for helping veterans, that's great and all, but I highly doubt the Black Panthers were just giving them free food and housing without educating them on why their actions in Vietnam were wrong and how they can atone for them.
And for the people going "we need military for a revolution." Correct, but take a look back in history. Almost all of the professional military were disillusioned with war or the state and/or starving to death. The communists won them because they promised to end pointless wars and provide food. Right now, your average soldier in the US military is quite comfortable. All they do is stand around on base, sit on a ship for 4 years, get free hot meals and play on their phones until their training session, and they WANT action because they're bored.
The ones who are disillusioned are the ones who fought and got nothing in return or wasted half a decade in service only to have 0 job training. The state isn't scared of those individuals because the majority of soldiers and veterans do fine, and if they aren't doing fine, they're still not angry enough to inspire regiment. And wrt the Black Panthers, they were doing this shit during a turbulent civil rights era where the government considered them the greatest threat - more than the Soviets - because they were uniting all sorts of marginalized people. What group or movement has that status today? Antifa? BLM? Lol.
Literally pro-Iraq war, pro-Afhganistan war, pro intervening in Syria, name a country full of nonwhite people the US has bombed and this guy will tell you he fucking loved that happening.
shit make up a country and ask him if we should bomb them and he'll say yes
the left treated soldiers & veterans as victims of the war
There is so much that is different between these comparisons but can you imagine just sailing past the draft and being like "the left is just worse to our poor vets now"
This. It's not worth the struggle session bullshit but every time someone starts spouting off on some moralistic tirade about the troops I just think "Who is going to fight your revolution you're back of house at a restaurant? You don't know how to operate an anti-aircraft missiles system or fly a helicopter."
People can get as big mad about the moral dimension of it as they want but moral righteousness doesn't teach you how to drive a tank.
Two points.
First of all, I'm not sure what's so valuable about recruiting members of an organization that has taken repeated L's from insurgents. Like, it would make more sense to get military training from the people who has actually given the US military L's than hope a bunch of US veterans would still remember how to drive an Abram. It would make more sense to hook up with the Cubans or the Vietnamese or even the Taliban, especially since they actually have experience waging guerilla warfare. Obviously, what's far more likely is people would have to figure out how to wage guerilla warfare themselves.
Second of all, anti-aircraft missiles systems and helicopters are way outside the scope of the early stages of assymetric warfare. Do you see members of Hamas flying helicopters or driving tanks? The fact that IDF jets can bomb civilians in Gaza with near impunity means Hamas probably doesn't have an anti-aircraft missiles system. You have to get to the level of Hezbollah, who basically de facto rule parts of Lebanon, before you can talk about needing tanks and helicopters. And who supplies Hezbollah with tanks and other vehicles? The Islamic Republic of Iran, and it's that same republic that gave the first generation of Hezbollah troops who would drive those tanks military training. Hezbollah doesn't need a bunch of ex Lebanese army veterans who can half-remember how to drive a model tank that's different from the model Iran's going to actually sent when the Iranian military instructor can just train them how to drive the tank.
Context and situation matters though, conscripted soldiers thay have been going through several years of one of the most brutal and senseless conflicts of all time are not gonna necessarily react like the modern professional militaries of our time.
You want the trench digging guys too in case you get the train of pogromist freaks that just gun down or beat the shit out of the guys you send to chat. It's stupid to just rely on pepsi commercial tactics because it worked in specific historical contexts.
yeah WW1 in Russia was a period of mass disillusionment and the peasant draft levies really wanted to go home. These were not volunteers with a GI bill to look forward to they were slave soldiers who could look forward to a life of grinding rural poverty when the army let them go
moralistic tirades are when you don't care about crybabies who want me to forgive them during absolute peace time where there is 0% threat of the state being overthrown
what the hell would we do with someone who can use an anti-aircraft missile system we don't have one of those
distinction between historically-common conscript armies and modern professionalized militaries
parts of the professional noble officer corps of the tsarist army ended up in the reds' camp. there's absolutely no time for looking gift horses in the mouth in wartime (keep a commissar on their ass though). until there's a war on though---we can have a little harrassing troops, as a treat
Yeah people are forgetting that isn't fucking WWII. Everyone is just posting on a fucking website. You can talk to me about overlooking supposedly changed imperialists' history when bullets and bombs are flying. Tired of this larping shit.
Same with the whole "you don't get to choose who's your anti war allies" red/brown bullshit. This isn't 1993 Russia. We're not communists and monarchists fighting side by side to overthrow the neoliberal state. We're not Soviets trying to buy more time by making deals with Nazis. We're not Chinese communists working with the KMT to defeat the Japanese. Until then, don't tell me I need to look at these fucks in the eye and say "you're forgiven, i 100% trust you" after they've done nothing to convince me
Everyone is just posting on a fucking website
This is an extremely controversial take on cha-cha
take a look back in history. Almost all of the professional military were disillusioned with war or the state and/or starving to death. The communists won them because they promised to end pointless wars and provide food (or in the case of China, they were fighting to unite the country and continue their existence because the Japanese were attacking). Right now, your average soldier in the US military is quite comfortable. All they do is stand around on base, sit on a ship for 4 years, get free hot meals and play on their phones until their training session, and they WANT action because they’re bored.
The ones who are disillusioned are the ones who fought and got nothing in housing or healthcare, or wasted half a decade in service only to have 0 job training. The state isn’t scared of those individuals because the majority of soldiers and veterans do fine, and if they aren’t doing fine, they’re still not angry enough to inspire regiment.
There's a big difference between conscripts and drafted soldiers (Vietnam) and volunteer troops that fought in modern US wars.
Are veterans irredeemable? No of course not, but people actually have to show regret for what they did if they want to be forgiven.
I think people vastly overrate how useful your average veteran would be in a revolutionary war. The majority of jobs in the military are just typical civilian jobs. Oh boy, the dude who spend his entire stint in Germany driving trucks and loading boxes onto and off of trucks is going to turn the tide in the revolutionary war, having experience that's totally not identical to the countless civilian truck drivers and warehouse workers. And for the people who actually saw combat, the majority are either ghouls who get off of war crimes or suffer from PTSD to the point where you don't want them to be anywhere near a gun.
Of the five veterans I know who actually went into detail about their enlistment, three of them didn't see combat and one of them suffers from PTSD and gives me extremely uncomfortable vibes. So that leaves with one dude out of five who actually has useful combat experience. Except he has multiple health issues (he was deployed in Iraq during Desert Storm) ranging from his finger joints constantly feeling numb to these weird bumps on his neck to tinnitus. The two who didn't see combat also suffer from tinnitus, one of them to the point where you had to half-shout at him or else he couldn't hear what you said.
I'm just not seeing what other people are seeing. You're not going to convince SF to join your cause. They're literally indoctrinated as part of their training to not defect to the enemy, whether the enemy is within or without. It makes about as much sense as trying to convince a CIA case officer to become a communist.
The sad truth that I've come to realize after rubbing shoulders with enough veterans is that most veterans are broken people. If they're lucky, only their physical bodies are broken. If they're not so lucky, well.
It's not they can help us civilians but us civilians who need to help them.
When there is a draft, people "joining" the military are more likely to be victims.
When there is no draft and you can make more per hour working at Taco Bell than as an E1 in the army, people joining the military are likely suckers at best and imperialist at worst.
As far as I'm concerned you can be a veteran and still be based as long as you're on that Mike Prysner shit
Veteran of US wars that simultaneously thinks Ukraine is facing a genocide. Like what does that imply about you?
