The misogyny is for sure but he is a bad guy who you're meant to dislike. Growing up with the show, I can say as a little kid I didn't like how he treated Harley and took it as a bad person doing a bad thing that you shouldn't do. I'm not everyone but I can recall that as a childhood memory, I wasn't really raised in any hyper masculine or sexist way in the first place, my parents are libs but absolutely NOT bigots and would crush anything like that if I repeated it from school or TV. It's a bad character doing a bad thing, it does play it a bit comedic, and I do gotta lower the bar cause it was written by 1992 guys and there were some mindsets. I've reeatched the series a few times as an adult cause it's pretty good as well and my general view is....ehhhhhhhh, can't expect much better for the time, pretty sure they were trying to show it as negative cause kids wanna be batman and therefore not the Joker, but also it did have a positive effect on me but that was reinforced already...which makes me feel like they did try with it and teaching kids about how predatory relationships can happen with a softened blow can have its value. So, I'd call.it well intended, badly executed but still worked for me as a kid and the overall idea of soft peddling how to recognize abuse through a cartoon villain isn't the worst idea.
Any examples of scenes from barman tas of Joker being abusive being played for laughs? I'm sure they exist, not trying to challenge that, I'd just like a refresher on examples cause I'm basing most of this on memories.
This was way before villains were supposed to be "the cool guy" who gets all the awesome lines. People unironically cheered for Superman and Captain America back then. Villains used to be just...bad. Bad people who do bad things and suffer a bad end.
I thought the "Joker x Harley is the ideal relationship" thing came from post TAS stuff. Most of it was extremely edgy in a way the TAS stories never were. TAS was kind of a light noir for kids, but then the comics and other media picked up the Harley character and did what everyone was doing with comics in the 90s - Made it cringeworthy edgelord bullshit.
Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize. I'm just thinking back and most of the cringe joker idealization in my very fallible, mushy memory is Jared Leto joker from. Which can't be right bc that was '16. But like up until ~11 Harley was in her jester costume, then in 2011 the Arkham game's put her in various corsets and leather pants. I mostly remember the Harley x Joker as an ideal relationship stuff after darker-and-edgier Harley became popular.
But who knows. This is all memory and my memory isn't any better than most and worse than some.
It's funny, Joker is and probably always will be Mark Hamill in my head. I'll read Jack Nicholson's joker in Jack's voice, and Cesar Romero's in Cesars voice, but anyone who played the character after TAS is Mark Hamill.
True. Mark was still a kid and as much as I love Star Wars Luke isn't the most powerful personality in cinema. But Mark did such an amazing job as Joker the performance stands out decades later.
I legit haven't seen it for a while. And yeah, that's not great. aspirational and immitable I'd give an eh, it's certainly not good but also literally no one wanted to be the Joker back then. There's a different cultural tie with being the Joker pist Dark Knight. It probably shouldn't have been done but I don't really think it had any significant effect on society.
Did the Joker increase the number of abusive creeps or simply give them a media figure to latch on to? Wouldn't they just pick something else otherwise? Do you think they would be different people if it weren't for batman tas?
Okay, and a lot of people consider Stsrship Triopers a leftist masterpiece. It's almost like there are things other than the media we consume that inform our interpretation Moreno than the media itself.
Fuck you. I've been genuinely trying to see where you're coming from and you've been patronizing the entire fuckimg time. NOT EVERYONE GETS THE SAME SHIT OUT OF ART AND NO ONE HAS THIS WEIRD FUCKING OBESSION WITH DIDACTICS THAT YOU DO. THIS IS A YOU THING. I can make the same brick wall emoji and frankly I've been trying to be nice and address your arguments and not you as a person, but frankly I find you to be one of the most fucking annoying and obstinate posters with a singular weird focus on culture and how you specifically interpret it.
It doesn't have a totallizing brainwash machine direct 1:1 effect on people. Media isn't a adbreakers art piece brainwashing ray. It's a cultural overlay that effects different people differently and in the MACRO SCALE can be manipulative, the cultural stimuli you absorb outside of media has a greater effect on how you absorb media than the content of the media itself. Your observations aren't universal either. Interpretation of art is probably one of the most inrinsinctly individual things there is and that interpretation works in subtle tandem with media's intent whether intentional or not to create an individual perspective.which though unique to everyone contributes to a greater core culture. Cherrypicking this and that which you don't like or hasn't aged well is fairly meaningless without any observation of outside context or that a plurality of people simply didn't take things the way you think they did. It's being incredibly reductive to both media influence and individual human intelligence and awareness of when they're being hocked to. People aren't blank slates who only watch TV and learn from it, we don't live in Platos cave and why people are the way they are demands much more rigorous understanding than what shows they watched.
I didn't say there no effect. I wrote an entire paragraph about the effect. It's not totalizing, and is a small piece.of a great cultural whole, like microbe small. It's not worth a thread every 2 days
I could give a fuck about my entertainment being criticized, this 'you just wanna defend your treats' bullshit is way too easy of a dismissal around here. I'm just looking for good criticism.
Bacon was associated with masculinity beforehand and they took that and ran with it. My grandfather was epic bacon guy in the 60s. It increased sales but that's because it took a previously existing cultural thing and blew it up. That's the difference, Batman tas was a part of a culture, epic bacon time used that existing kernel and turned it into a franchise. There is a difference there.
I recall feeling bad for Harley a lot. I don't recall sympathizing with Joker ever, but I do remember rooting for Harley and thinking Joker was a bad guy for how he treated her. This is all fuzzy thirty year old memories, but I remember Joker being genuinely cruel and mean, while Harley was mostly goofy and having fun. Joker was a sadist, Harley just didn't care about breaking the law and occaisionally hurting some people in a stylized cartoon way.
I really like how Harley's character has been developed, though I do miss the old clown suit. I'm sick of the grim dark batman and I'd really like to seem something more whimsical and goofy like the Adam Westbatman, Brave and the Bold animated series, or even just Tim Burton's dark gothic tragicomedy. Just lighten the mood and have some fun with the characters for once. Robbie's Harley Quinn has been a nice break from teh grimderp batman stuf of the last decade and change.
The misogyny is for sure but he is a bad guy who you're meant to dislike. Growing up with the show, I can say as a little kid I didn't like how he treated Harley and took it as a bad person doing a bad thing that you shouldn't do. I'm not everyone but I can recall that as a childhood memory, I wasn't really raised in any hyper masculine or sexist way in the first place, my parents are libs but absolutely NOT bigots and would crush anything like that if I repeated it from school or TV. It's a bad character doing a bad thing, it does play it a bit comedic, and I do gotta lower the bar cause it was written by 1992 guys and there were some mindsets. I've reeatched the series a few times as an adult cause it's pretty good as well and my general view is....ehhhhhhhh, can't expect much better for the time, pretty sure they were trying to show it as negative cause kids wanna be batman and therefore not the Joker, but also it did have a positive effect on me but that was reinforced already...which makes me feel like they did try with it and teaching kids about how predatory relationships can happen with a softened blow can have its value. So, I'd call.it well intended, badly executed but still worked for me as a kid and the overall idea of soft peddling how to recognize abuse through a cartoon villain isn't the worst idea.
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Any examples of scenes from barman tas of Joker being abusive being played for laughs? I'm sure they exist, not trying to challenge that, I'd just like a refresher on examples cause I'm basing most of this on memories.
This was way before villains were supposed to be "the cool guy" who gets all the awesome lines. People unironically cheered for Superman and Captain America back then. Villains used to be just...bad. Bad people who do bad things and suffer a bad end.
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I thought the "Joker x Harley is the ideal relationship" thing came from post TAS stuff. Most of it was extremely edgy in a way the TAS stories never were. TAS was kind of a light noir for kids, but then the comics and other media picked up the Harley character and did what everyone was doing with comics in the 90s - Made it cringeworthy edgelord bullshit.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize. I'm just thinking back and most of the cringe joker idealization in my very fallible, mushy memory is Jared Leto joker from. Which can't be right bc that was '16. But like up until ~11 Harley was in her jester costume, then in 2011 the Arkham game's put her in various corsets and leather pants. I mostly remember the Harley x Joker as an ideal relationship stuff after darker-and-edgier Harley became popular.
But who knows. This is all memory and my memory isn't any better than most and worse than some.
It's funny, Joker is and probably always will be Mark Hamill in my head. I'll read Jack Nicholson's joker in Jack's voice, and Cesar Romero's in Cesars voice, but anyone who played the character after TAS is Mark Hamill.
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True. Mark was still a kid and as much as I love Star Wars Luke isn't the most powerful personality in cinema. But Mark did such an amazing job as Joker the performance stands out decades later.
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I legit haven't seen it for a while. And yeah, that's not great. aspirational and immitable I'd give an eh, it's certainly not good but also literally no one wanted to be the Joker back then. There's a different cultural tie with being the Joker pist Dark Knight. It probably shouldn't have been done but I don't really think it had any significant effect on society.
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Yes. Cause it did. Abusive creeps existed outside of batman fandom
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Did the Joker increase the number of abusive creeps or simply give them a media figure to latch on to? Wouldn't they just pick something else otherwise? Do you think they would be different people if it weren't for batman tas?
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Okay, and a lot of people consider Stsrship Triopers a leftist masterpiece. It's almost like there are things other than the media we consume that inform our interpretation Moreno than the media itself.
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So does that make Starship Troopers bad and should he have not made it?
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I know. I'm looking for what you think
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No, tell me for real.
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Fuck you. I've been genuinely trying to see where you're coming from and you've been patronizing the entire fuckimg time. NOT EVERYONE GETS THE SAME SHIT OUT OF ART AND NO ONE HAS THIS WEIRD FUCKING OBESSION WITH DIDACTICS THAT YOU DO. THIS IS A YOU THING. I can make the same brick wall emoji and frankly I've been trying to be nice and address your arguments and not you as a person, but frankly I find you to be one of the most fucking annoying and obstinate posters with a singular weird focus on culture and how you specifically interpret it.
:wall-talk:
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Google base and superstructure
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It doesn't have a totallizing brainwash machine direct 1:1 effect on people. Media isn't a adbreakers art piece brainwashing ray. It's a cultural overlay that effects different people differently and in the MACRO SCALE can be manipulative, the cultural stimuli you absorb outside of media has a greater effect on how you absorb media than the content of the media itself. Your observations aren't universal either. Interpretation of art is probably one of the most inrinsinctly individual things there is and that interpretation works in subtle tandem with media's intent whether intentional or not to create an individual perspective.which though unique to everyone contributes to a greater core culture. Cherrypicking this and that which you don't like or hasn't aged well is fairly meaningless without any observation of outside context or that a plurality of people simply didn't take things the way you think they did. It's being incredibly reductive to both media influence and individual human intelligence and awareness of when they're being hocked to. People aren't blank slates who only watch TV and learn from it, we don't live in Platos cave and why people are the way they are demands much more rigorous understanding than what shows they watched.
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I didn't say there no effect. I wrote an entire paragraph about the effect. It's not totalizing, and is a small piece.of a great cultural whole, like microbe small. It's not worth a thread every 2 days
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I could give a fuck about my entertainment being criticized, this 'you just wanna defend your treats' bullshit is way too easy of a dismissal around here. I'm just looking for good criticism.
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Second sentence.
Anecdote vs anecdote.
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They're both anecdotal so there isn't a high ground cause neither of us are basing anything in real data.
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Which was aimed at adults and depicted eating bacon as positive. That's not a parallel.
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Bacon was associated with masculinity beforehand and they took that and ran with it. My grandfather was epic bacon guy in the 60s. It increased sales but that's because it took a previously existing cultural thing and blew it up. That's the difference, Batman tas was a part of a culture, epic bacon time used that existing kernel and turned it into a franchise. There is a difference there.
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Yeah, I said they exploited an already existing kernel and blew it up.
If you want to ignore that, ignore that.
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I recall feeling bad for Harley a lot. I don't recall sympathizing with Joker ever, but I do remember rooting for Harley and thinking Joker was a bad guy for how he treated her. This is all fuzzy thirty year old memories, but I remember Joker being genuinely cruel and mean, while Harley was mostly goofy and having fun. Joker was a sadist, Harley just didn't care about breaking the law and occaisionally hurting some people in a stylized cartoon way.
I really like how Harley's character has been developed, though I do miss the old clown suit. I'm sick of the grim dark batman and I'd really like to seem something more whimsical and goofy like the Adam Westbatman, Brave and the Bold animated series, or even just Tim Burton's dark gothic tragicomedy. Just lighten the mood and have some fun with the characters for once. Robbie's Harley Quinn has been a nice break from teh grimderp batman stuf of the last decade and change.