Re:Zero - I barely made it thru the first season. It starts off pretty strong but deteriorates after a couple arcs when it hands the protagonist his romantic interest for no discernible reason. This means the series ends up as a standard boring wish fulfillment fantasy instead of a more thoughtful or interesting sustained examination of tropes. There are so many character design cliches I honestly haven't been able to rewatch it. Later in s1, the whale arc, to me, felt interminable and utterly disconnected from any part of the plot I actually cared about.
That said, I can actually remember what happens in the first half of s1 pretty well and it aroused reasonably strong opinions in me. That means it stands out somewhat from most of the anime series I watch. If I were new to it I'd certainly watch the first 16 episodes or so.
It always really bothered me that the protag was a hikkiNEET but, once isekai'd he is the hardest worker around. That's what made me like Konosuba so much more. Kasuma jerks off in the stables, hates working, yearns for true gender equality, etc. To me, one of my favorite things art can do is examine a psychological paradigm. I also greatly enjoyed Joker for this reason.
The unrepentant dirtbag protagonist is definitely one of the enjoyable things about KonoSuba.
I chalk up the "HikkiNEET to work-obsessed" trope as part of the wish fulfillment of isekai. One of the reasons people give up on RL is because of the lack of consistent rewards. If working really hard suddenly gave you a harem of compliant beauties, piles of gold, and widespread social validation it becomes easier to sustain. Compared to RL where working really hard makes more money for your boss.
This. I think it's really important to understand hikkikomori and NEET as a result of capitalist alienation, rather than personal failings. In that sense, isekais tend to have an implicit critique of capitalism, though it's nowhere near coherent.
I would hesitate before I'd call it a critique in its inheritance. Could you differentiate an isekai from any other type of fantasy story or fairy tale? Surely the poet who wrote Beowulf didn't actually slay a dragon. His story was far more engaging and interesting than whatever he was doing in the 10th century. I would much more quickly put a label of "wish fulfillment" than "capitalist critique" for these stories. In my mind, I think of the anime studio who needs easy an way to put a self-insert into a medieval setting. You don't have time as a studio to get an audience to love a down-trodden minstrel turned street urchin if you only get one season, but you can immediately sympathize with a hikkiNEET in a wacky situation.
You don’t have time as a studio to get an audience to love a down-trodden minstrel turned street urchin if you only get one season
I mean, this book is called name of the wind and it would probably make a pretty popular tv show if the adaptation ever saw the light of day. the author hooks you by showing the hero after his fall in the frame narrative and the meat of the story is him recounting his life to a biographer. by the time his parents parents die and he becomes a street urchin, you're deeply invested in the story and I think a decent TV show would try and get him off the streets and into the university in that first season. that is to say, you do have time given a half-decent narrative and characterization.
genre fantasy, including portal fantasies/isekais, can be self-inserts, but they really don't have to be. the Thomas Covenant series is famous for being a deeply engaging work of art, a portal fantasy, and featuring one of the most loathesome protagonists ever. the worst part is that he doesn't even need to be. the audience is primed by the story to forgive him at every turn and yet he manages to be unforgivable.
self-inserts are really just a sign that 1. the author is new at this or 2. the author is churning this out for cash. they're wholly a defect in the story and replacing them with a real character always improves the story.
That's fair, my exposure is mostly in re:zero, Konosuba, devil is a part timer, and shield hero. I feel confident saying those are self-interests or a subversion of it. I think we're vaguely agreeing that isekai can be a capitalist critique by having an alienated main character, but it is not necessarily. Is that a fair statement?
yes, but further that isekai is at it's strongest when it's examining the nature of wish-fulfillment and desire, or when it abandons that easy path to tell its own story (something done most straightforwardly by using the genre to serve as a basis for introducing the setting and characters, then heading off in its own direction). it's at its weakest when it plays itself straight or when it merely critiques the protagonist and their society. isekai has the relatively unique opportunity to critique two societies at once and to play them off each other. it's not really in the genre, except in an abstract way, but the Dispossessed by LeGuin takes this latter approach to amazing effect, comparing a poor, anarcho-communist society of people living on the moon with the rich, capitalist society living on the planet surface.
I've written an unpublished novel where an alienated protagonist finds a way to travel in between a modern day city and a spell-flinging world without electricity myself. The idea is that it'll become a trilogy where he stats out flagrantly rude and becomes outright toxic & deranged not only in the fantasy world, but in the real one as well. This turns him into a social media darling and a fucking scourge on his acquaintances. This is before he ultimately and begrudgingly being a catalyst to save both worlds having learned nothing about morals or the world's rich lore in the process (of which I've written other novels).
I say this because 1) I love talking about it and 2) I've always instinctively disliked wish fulfillment fantasy where hard work gets you opulent pleasures.
I bombed out of this series at the start of the third arc. I think you kind of have to be willing to empathize with the incel protagonist and I'm really just not. it doesn't really work if you don't see yourself in him or at the least someone you care about and he just rubs me as an amalgamation of people who have really pissed me off over the years. there's a small catharsis in watching him die gruesomely, I guess?
Re:Zero
I second Re:Zero. It's one of those shows where you wonder why you waited so long to watch it after you start it.
Yesterday's episode sends it up to an 8 or 9 out of 10 for me.
Re:Zero - I barely made it thru the first season. It starts off pretty strong but deteriorates after a couple arcs when it hands the protagonist his romantic interest for no discernible reason. This means the series ends up as a standard boring wish fulfillment fantasy instead of a more thoughtful or interesting sustained examination of tropes. There are so many character design cliches I honestly haven't been able to rewatch it. Later in s1, the whale arc, to me, felt interminable and utterly disconnected from any part of the plot I actually cared about.
That said, I can actually remember what happens in the first half of s1 pretty well and it aroused reasonably strong opinions in me. That means it stands out somewhat from most of the anime series I watch. If I were new to it I'd certainly watch the first 16 episodes or so.
It always really bothered me that the protag was a hikkiNEET but, once isekai'd he is the hardest worker around. That's what made me like Konosuba so much more. Kasuma jerks off in the stables, hates working, yearns for true gender equality, etc. To me, one of my favorite things art can do is examine a psychological paradigm. I also greatly enjoyed Joker for this reason.
The unrepentant dirtbag protagonist is definitely one of the enjoyable things about KonoSuba.
I chalk up the "HikkiNEET to work-obsessed" trope as part of the wish fulfillment of isekai. One of the reasons people give up on RL is because of the lack of consistent rewards. If working really hard suddenly gave you a harem of compliant beauties, piles of gold, and widespread social validation it becomes easier to sustain. Compared to RL where working really hard makes more money for your boss.
This. I think it's really important to understand hikkikomori and NEET as a result of capitalist alienation, rather than personal failings. In that sense, isekais tend to have an implicit critique of capitalism, though it's nowhere near coherent.
I would hesitate before I'd call it a critique in its inheritance. Could you differentiate an isekai from any other type of fantasy story or fairy tale? Surely the poet who wrote Beowulf didn't actually slay a dragon. His story was far more engaging and interesting than whatever he was doing in the 10th century. I would much more quickly put a label of "wish fulfillment" than "capitalist critique" for these stories. In my mind, I think of the anime studio who needs easy an way to put a self-insert into a medieval setting. You don't have time as a studio to get an audience to love a down-trodden minstrel turned street urchin if you only get one season, but you can immediately sympathize with a hikkiNEET in a wacky situation.
I mean, this book is called name of the wind and it would probably make a pretty popular tv show if the adaptation ever saw the light of day. the author hooks you by showing the hero after his fall in the frame narrative and the meat of the story is him recounting his life to a biographer. by the time his parents parents die and he becomes a street urchin, you're deeply invested in the story and I think a decent TV show would try and get him off the streets and into the university in that first season. that is to say, you do have time given a half-decent narrative and characterization.
genre fantasy, including portal fantasies/isekais, can be self-inserts, but they really don't have to be. the Thomas Covenant series is famous for being a deeply engaging work of art, a portal fantasy, and featuring one of the most loathesome protagonists ever. the worst part is that he doesn't even need to be. the audience is primed by the story to forgive him at every turn and yet he manages to be unforgivable.
self-inserts are really just a sign that 1. the author is new at this or 2. the author is churning this out for cash. they're wholly a defect in the story and replacing them with a real character always improves the story.
That's fair, my exposure is mostly in re:zero, Konosuba, devil is a part timer, and shield hero. I feel confident saying those are self-interests or a subversion of it. I think we're vaguely agreeing that isekai can be a capitalist critique by having an alienated main character, but it is not necessarily. Is that a fair statement?
yes, but further that isekai is at it's strongest when it's examining the nature of wish-fulfillment and desire, or when it abandons that easy path to tell its own story (something done most straightforwardly by using the genre to serve as a basis for introducing the setting and characters, then heading off in its own direction). it's at its weakest when it plays itself straight or when it merely critiques the protagonist and their society. isekai has the relatively unique opportunity to critique two societies at once and to play them off each other. it's not really in the genre, except in an abstract way, but the Dispossessed by LeGuin takes this latter approach to amazing effect, comparing a poor, anarcho-communist society of people living on the moon with the rich, capitalist society living on the planet surface.
I've written an unpublished novel where an alienated protagonist finds a way to travel in between a modern day city and a spell-flinging world without electricity myself. The idea is that it'll become a trilogy where he stats out flagrantly rude and becomes outright toxic & deranged not only in the fantasy world, but in the real one as well. This turns him into a social media darling and a fucking scourge on his acquaintances. This is before he ultimately and begrudgingly being a catalyst to save both worlds having learned nothing about morals or the world's rich lore in the process (of which I've written other novels).
I say this because 1) I love talking about it and 2) I've always instinctively disliked wish fulfillment fantasy where hard work gets you opulent pleasures.
deleted by creator
I did it, it was good. Thank you
I bombed out of this series at the start of the third arc. I think you kind of have to be willing to empathize with the incel protagonist and I'm really just not. it doesn't really work if you don't see yourself in him or at the least someone you care about and he just rubs me as an amalgamation of people who have really pissed me off over the years. there's a small catharsis in watching him die gruesomely, I guess?