Some consumers may choose veganism, or a pescatarian diet, but meat, eggs and milk, offer crucial sources of much-needed nutrients which cannot easily be obtained from plant-based foods, a new report issued on Tuesday by the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization says.
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there is no hope arguing it because your argument is "i want to kill animals and not feel bad about it"
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The dairy industry is the meat industry so that is no excuse.
Uh oh here comes "lifestyle-ism." In that case if you live in the west then that's no excuse. You contribute in one way or another to the system so "no excuse"
I feel like you've forgotten your own previous point and are now just doing mental gymnastics.
I was responding to someone who accused me of eating meat. That in no way detracts from my point about lifestyle-ism. Jesus I'm dealing with some Ben-Shapiro level sophistry here. smfh
No, you were responding to this: "there is no hope arguing it because your argument is “i want to kill animals and not feel bad about it”"
It says nothing about eating meat. It was actually you who injected that idea, as part of referring to yourself as vegetarian. I then pointed out that vegetarianism does not free you from participating in the killing of animals. It's just another facet of the same integrated process.
You're putting me in the position to explain the basic context and meaning of conversations you're in. Simultaneously you're exaggerating to flippantly dismiss me and others. Do you think it's possible you're caught up for reasons other than "debate" or a commitment to accuracy and shared knowledge?
lib
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which of you losers upvoted this? show yourselves so i can mock you
??? Then eat the eggs I guess? But that's not eating the chickens, idgi sorry, what you said here doesn't follow from your premise
Also are those chickens eating agricultural surplus or is the surplus grown expressly for the factory-farmed chickens?
If you've got well cared-for pet chickens then yeah eat the eggs but I think you're equivocating
The point of eating the chickens in a historical context is that if you don't they still die anyways.
Ok fascinating
I'm talking about today, and so was the comment I replied to before they diverted into a historical argument
Using history to defend a practice that may no longer be necessary is facile, sorry
The comment you were replying to was about how in a future sustainable society it would still make sense to have chickens for the same reason they were useful historically.
I am pointing out that these arguments:
are unrelated to the historical argument and using the former to bolster the latter is incoherent. Okay, if raising chickens is an important component of a whole food system then great, like I said eat the eggs, you still haven't connected that with the practice of eating meat
But chickens are not bugs and saying hey maybe we don't need to eat them isn't eco fascist, chickens form attachments, fear for their lives, enjoy being petted and held by humans. Bugs don't care for any of that shit except for staying alive.
I think I've made my point clear so I'm done here, peace✌️
The point of eating livestock is that if you just let them die you've wasted resources. You can argue that's worth it, but the connection to the practice of eating meat is there.
The comment they were replying to didn't present any history at all. They were just telling a story to retroactively justify raising, killing, and eating chickens.
And as parent said, the fact that something was done previously is not a good justification for doing it now. In fact, it's the base of conservatism and then reactionary thought. There need to be other, good reasons.
That's not how I read it. They explained why it was done historically. They didn't just say we should do it because it was done previously - they said : here is why it was done, and implied that the same reasons apply today.
It's not a story that raising, killing, and eating chickens is an efficient use of resources in a context of sustainable, low-industry farming. It's factual and true, in that context. That's currently a widespread context in 2023 across the Third World (of course not in more economically developed countries), and there are many people on this website that think that we should adopt this kind of approach to agriculture moving forwards. If you do, then yes, it's an efficient way to do it, and that is an argument towards that.
You may disagree and think that this isn't a sufficient reason. That's not the same as saying that it's merely an argument from tradition, because it isn't.
Again, the poster they replied to did not state anything historical. They made some shit up that sounds good but doesn't investigate the question at all. This is actually very common in the implicit western chauvinist mythmaking tendency in which we are all constantly bathed. We tell convenient, simplistic stories about how humans used to live, stories that are strikingly reflective of either the status quo or thst bolster the status quo as a development from "primitive" living. Marx was guiltu of this as well, despite his many great insights.
They also said some absolute bullshit about headless chickens that is more or less an urban legend, despite having a tiny kernel of truth.
I do think that the point of raising the veneer of history in these discussions comes from a place other than solid material grounding or a socialist analysis, that it is more about the aesthetics of a lefty academic analysis and is guarding the real reasons that are too conservative and reactionary to actually self-recognize and state (yet). It does play on the "this is how it was, so how it can be now" idea.
I don't think I understand what your second paragraph means, sorry! Could you rephrase?
The second paragraph is that it isn't made up. It's a historical fact that raising chickens allows the recycling of agricultural waste, and coincidentally it turns out that we only started raising checks when grain agriculture picked up and that their distribution historically was highly correlated with the culture of grains from which they could be efficiently fed without impacting human food use (mainly rice and millet). See : https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2121978119. It wasn't the case in Europe, however.
These historical circumstances still persist in much of the world, and are the reason why many subsistence farmers still today use chickens. If you see that as a basic model for the future of farming, as many do, then it would make sense to continue, otherwise not (in which case you'd probably be looking at lab meat/eggs instead).
We don't actually know exactly why people started farming chickens. It was almost definitely in Southeast Asia, but the reasons that people participated in any kind of agriculture have been varied snd changed over time. Eventually it became simply a form of food, and one that synergized with cereal production, but raising chickens predates the existence of having any significant amount of agricultural waste to feed them.
Your idea of having "ethical" decapitated chickens makes no sense. Nobody does this and it would contradict the labor saved by letting chickens deal with ag waste. It's also just plain infeasible because cutting at exactly the brain stem isn't easy.
In a world of industrialized agriculture, our ability to produce enough food or nutritious food is not the problem. Ag waste can be recycled straight back into ag or used in other ways abd is unnecessary for food production except when poverty has been forced onto people artificially, such as through imperialism. Groups like the FAO like to talk about malnutrition in countries in Africa while ignoring the elephant in the room: the empire has forced IMF "restructuring" on them, has undercut domestic food production, and turned their economies into extraction industry and perpetual poverty. In this status quo of deprivation, liberals squabble over whether having chickens or a cow is "the fix". Meanwhile, industrialised ag can produce more and better food, and cheaper, but it is deliberately made unavailable by global capitalism.
Anti-veganism is not particularly well-grounded in a material analysis. It's usually just reactionary excuse-making and recycles the same kinds of self-serving talking points I've heard from "leftists" that work for defense contractors.