So someone was like "Halo:CE doesn't hold up to modern games, so I looked at what Steams top FPS games are right now and, according to a panel of experts I made up in my head, they are objectively trash. Counter Strike is literally several years older than Halo and hardly constitutes a modern game. Apex Legends is Titanfall if you took all the cool Titanfall parts out. CoD:Modern Warcrimes is uniquely awful in such a perplexing way that I believe it is a modern art performance secretly performed under activisions nose. Siege is a game about poking holes in walls then shooting people you don't know. Rust is a man's inhumanity to man simulator. GTAV is about selling shark cards. The first four games on the list that are actually good in any sense are Deep Rock Galactic, Team Fortress 2, and Halo: The Master Chief Collection.
DRG is geuinely good and innovative. They made something cool, it's awesome, Rock and Stone.
Team Fortress 2 is a re-make of a Half-Life mod from 1997, and was itself released in 2007, only a few years after Halo:CE and Halo2. And Halo is, literally, Halo, still a top seller on Steam 22 years after it's release.
The last "Good" game on the list is the one my friend held up as an example of why Halo couldn't stand up to modern games. It's Destiny. And I said "But Destiny is Halo" and he said no, it's a totally different game, and i don't want to argue about it, and shut me down.
The left stick moves right stick looks around controller system that a considerable number of games use today was solidified and became an industry standard because of Halo.
The idea of a dedicated button for grenade and melee, instead of having them be another "gun" selected from the list of weapons every time you need to use them, comes from Halo.
The regenerating health bar, in Halo's case justified by shields, comes from Halo.
Destiny has all these things... because Destiny, in terms of it's core gameplay loop, is Halo. It's more Halo than a lot of the Halo games that came after three.
One of the biggest innovations in Halo, and one of the things that made it such a fun, successful game, was what I think they said at the time was something like the shoot-punch-grenade loop. They had set up the game around those three actions. They all had their own button, which wasn't really a thing at the time. The loop was that the player would shoot some things, then punch something, then throw a grenade to get breathing room, maybe go in to cover to regen shields, then repeat the loop. And the loop was fun. And the whole game was structured around that loop. Most of the guns were either inaccurate or had slow projectiles. Players would naturally try to move in to a zone where the guns would be most effective, able to consistently hit enemies. This also brought them in to a zone where enemy's could rush in to melee with them, or they could rush enemies, at which point they could punch something or even have a little boxing match. If they felt overwhelmed or saw an opportunity they could throw a grenade to buy some breathing room, reload, re-charge shields. Then it was right back at the top of the loop, moving in to weapons range and shooting stuff. You were always on the move, always doing something, but you have a couple of verbs to work with instead of just move and shoot like a lot of FPS games leading up to that point had. You had some flexibility. And the whole game was tuned around that loop. The speed at which you moved, the big, long, floaty jumps that could carry you up or down terrain, they way the reticle and auto-aim worked, the design of large, open levels intended to be navigated by vehicles to get the game a sense of scope and allow the player to explore, alternating with much more constrained areas that complimented the gameplay loop.
And Destiny, made by Bungie, designed by many of the people who designed Halo, uses all the same stuff. The guardians have more or less the same weapon inventory system as Halo - Two main guns that you switch between. Destiny switches it up by letting you carry a third "power" weapon, but the player's ammo supply is restricted so in practice it gets used against bosses and minibosses rather than being used as a normal weapon. Normally you choose two guns based on what role you want to take and what you expect to run in to and you stick with them. Halo:CE was the game that made "You can only carry two guns" an industry standard, even in games where this didn't work and was a terrible idea.
The Guardian's in Destiny have a bunch of "powers", but the powers are explicitly Halo's punch and grenade with fancy graphics. The grenade power is even called grenade, even though you're supposed to be throwing some kind of magic doohickey.. But most of the, what, 15 avaialable options now? are grenades. A few of them behave just like the halo plasma grenades, sticking the enemies for a few seconds until they explode (this was the height of comedy in 2001). Some are different, but most a ranged AOE attack thrown in an arc from the player, serving the same function and role as halo's grenades.
Melee works the same way - The characters have a variety of "melee" abilities, but for the most part they constitute a relatively powerful attack used at very short range.
A big part of Destiny's design is about severely restricting player behavior by constraining what they can do and when. They took the free form nature of Halo's melee and grenade and assigned timer's to them. In Halo you could melee any enemy with any weapon and do full damage whenever you want. In Destiny you have a powered up melee attack on a cooldown timer. Once you use it you're left with a much weaker attack that does less damage. Halo let you carry four grenades - Two human grenades and two alien plasma grenades. Destiny puts your grenades on a cooldown timer. Halo basically trusted that the player would figure out the shoot-punch-grenade loop. Destiny enforces it mechanically - You can only punch once, then throw one grenade, then you have to either shoot or use one of the game's mechanics for recharging your punch and grenade. It's the same loop using the same verbs for the same purpose. Destiny just gives the player a bunch of largely superficial choices and adds additional restrictions on what the player can do at any given moment.
Speaking of two guns - Destiny has a system wherein both guns and enemy shields have "energy" types. Supposedly they tie in to the game's story but they're really just a color coded excuse. You need a blue gun to do damage to blue shields, a purple gun to damage purple shields, and a red gun to damage red shields. There are also white guns, which are "Kinetic" and don't work as well against shields. This is almost directly from Halo. In Halo the human weapons shot bullets and were did less damage to shields, but more damage once someone's shields were down. The alien plasma weapons did more shield damage, but weren't as effective once the shields were down. Destiny does the same thing, they just have three flavors of shields to force players to use different weapons instead of finding a favorite and sticking with it. At higher difficulties they go even further than halo; A given color of shield can only be taken down by the right flavor of gun, otherwise the enemy is much more difficult to kill. If you don't bring the right flavors of guns for those enemy's you're essentially soft-locked and have to leave the mission, get the right guns, and come back.
Destiny's offers each class three different ways to jump, all of which end up having roughly the same range and height in order to make the game's jump puzzles completable by all players. Most of them are relatively high, long, floaty jumps that are a direct evolution from the way the Master Chief character handle's in Halo. They're used for the same purpose - To give hte player character a good deal of mobility to navigate up and down the terrain.
There are fewer direct parellels, but the enemy's do follow similar patterns. Halo:CE had big guys with shields and dangerous guns, small guys that were less dangerous but could flank or harass you, and really big guys that needed a special trick to take down. There were also the unbiquitous guy who explodes.
Destiny has several enemy factions, but in practice each one has a big guy who is dangerous close up or at range, has good guns, and often has shields, a little guy who is less powerful but can flank and harass you, and some kind of big guy, like a tank or an ogre or a giant floating eyeball.
If you've been playing games the whole time from 2001 to now the similarities would be striking even if you didn't know that Destiny was Bungie's passion project after they managed to flee from Microsoft, leaving their IP behind. If you were a true, verified fossil you'd even recognize how much of Marathon made it in to Halo and Destiny, right now to concepts like AIs slipping human control to gain true sentience and agency. Rasputin is just Cortana is just Durandal, exploring the same concept in different ways. Guardians and Spartans both have two weapons, a grenade button, a melee button, regenerating shields. Even the basic weapon classes in Destiny - Assault rifle that sprays ammo everywhere, battle rifle that fires short accurate bursts, semi-auto accurate scout rifle, sniper rifle with massive damage but low ammo, shotgun that can kill anything as long as it's within 5 feet, extremely accurate high damage pistols, missile launchers, smgs - can mostly be found in very similar forms in Halo.
I forgot one - Destiny's sparrow hoverbikes are very similar to the covenant ghost hover bikes. Indeed, the enemy hover bikes behave in the same way as the Halo ghosts, being a vehicle with medium heavy firepower, which the players can steal by shootin
I mean, Destiny has an anniversary DLC that has a bunch of weapons and items from Halo but with the serial numbers scratched off, ffs.
The reason we have nostaligia for the 70-80s and the start of the internet is because at the time the mechanics of capital were not as advanced as they were today. So in those moments we got a taste of what life could be like without fully developed capitalism and it was amazing compared to our current moment where the techniques of capitalism has caught up.
It's wrong, but it's also not wrong, and I don't know how to explain that even to myself.
I think I ran out of space.
Either way, I was trying to tell a younger person about how the thing he likes was directly a progression from this thing I like a long time ago, and just being completely, abruptly shut down sucks. Whatever I had to say wasn't interesting or important and it was so obviously wrong it wasn't even worth listening to. Fuck you, go away, I don't want to hear your rambling.
I've been feeling like shit today anyway, and it's just very alienating. What's the point of knowing stuff if no one cares? What's the point of learning about art when people scoff at the idea that it has a history and is part of an ongoing historical process?
Uft. And like a year ago I got in to a shouting match with the same person because I'm, I think reasonably, outraged at the dehumanizing way studios and publishers use the psychology of gambling and weaponized behavioral conditioning to manipulate players in to buying lots of shit, to the point that for many people the game itself has become secondary to achievements and unlocks and mtx crap that have nothing to do with the actual gameplay loop. And he was 100% in support of that, felt that the game itself was extraneous, liked the grind for the sake of grind, didn't see anything ethically or otherwise wrong with using techniques developed by studying the behavior of heroin addicted rats in wire cages to manipulate actual human beings. It was just so utterly bizarre coming from someone I'd known for years, and I regrettably reacted with incredulity and then anger, but it's still fucking bizarre to me to be in the skinner box and think that's normal and okay instead of a direct, dehumanizing attack on your personhood.
Man fuck covid. I'm going even more insane than usual
Either way, I was trying to tell a younger person about how the thing he likes was directly a progression from this thing I like a long time ago, and just being completely, abruptly shut down sucks. Whatever I had to say wasn’t interesting or important and it was so obviously wrong it wasn’t even worth listening to.
I hate the thought terminating cliche that the only appeal that older game have is nostalgia. That's bullshit, especially as so many newer games are deliberately stripped down versions of older things (most glaring example being Madden games, which I don't even like but I've seen extensive documentation of features being stripped out of next year's version) with worse monetization.
felt that the game itself was extraneous, liked the grind for the sake of grind, didn’t see anything ethically or otherwise wrong with using techniques developed by studying the behavior of heroin addicted rats in wire cages to manipulate actual human beings
IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T BUY IT, SIMPLE :very-intelligent:
I don't know what to call that thought terminating cliche in a formal way but I fucking hate it.
it's the same concept as "vote with your wallet", like, motherfucker i didn't buy horse armor or lootboxes and all this horrible shit happened anyway. i should've done something real like murdering that one dude before he became CEO of electronic arts
It's willful (if ignorant) compliance with neoliberal atomization and always has been for obedient consumers to try to shush people unhappy with fucked up manipulative marketing, monetization, and thinly disguised gambling tricks.
The thing you're missing with destiny is that it's an rpg. You can get by without build crafting and just using guns and playing like it's a pure shooter, but any good build has a feedback loop of use ability -> other ability is recharged -> use other ability to recharge first one. You aren't even shooting most of the time. The game does it's best to not tell you about this, so your average player is using their shitty assault rifle, not any of the flavors of unlimited grenades.
I have heard this explanation before, and my response is that at some point in it's development cycle Destiny was a beautiful, sublime shooter. The actual shooting mechanics feel amazing. And then the RPG mechanics were rudely, in some cases badly, stapled on top of that foundation. Like Destiny doesn't have levels. You don't gain power by levelling up, you don't unlock new abilities, you don't do anything normally associated with levelling in RPGs. What Destiny has is damage multipliers. If you're the correct light level for an activity your damage multiplier is 1.0. If you're overlevelled it goes up to like idk 1.9 or more. If you're underlevelled it goes down until you can't even carry enough ammo to kill enemies even if they're completely unable to even hit you (I guess they changed this when they added unlimited ammo).
It's not an RPG with shooting elements. It's an FPS handcuffed by RPG and psuedo-RPG systems. Even changing to unlimited ammo reflects that - Because different builds are so imbalanced and unpredictable giving a player limited ammo might leave them soft-locked in some places. Since they can't actually design the levels and experiences around a consistent or predictable loadout they just threw their hands up and took ammo out of the picture entirely.
Most builds were extremely hampered by absurd systems like having to buy critical abilities and upgrades from vendors that only sold one per day with a rotation schedule that could be months or longer. There were entire systems in the game locked behind ADA's mod store thing so people couldn't use warmind cells or whatever other thing. Many builds relied on specific items so you were just stuck with whatever crap happened to drop unless you got lucky and rolled one of the limited number of useful items, or worse yet one of the limited combinations of useful items. It was just so much bullshit, just the worst parts of the WoW/Everquest hand holding theme park do as your told bullshit suffocating this otherwise gorgeous FPS experience. When it worked it was amazing, but I was constantly pulled out of my flow by it's shitty RPG mechanics and arbitrary limits. I have an angle on this baddy! I take the shot! Oh, he's arbitrarily invincible until I take the destiny ball and put it in the destiny ball receptacle. The ball probably represents a bomb or a power cell or something important, idfk, because Destiny uses the same ball with the same ball animations for everything for some reason. So fuck you, fuck your giant fucking gun, fuck your carefully lined up shot, go put the ball in the hole first.
One of my "I cannot fucking believe this shit" moments was back when the campaign was still part of the game, and I realized that the enemies couldn't actually deal enough DPS to kill my character, so I just said fuck it and finished the entire campaign using uncharged melee to kill everything. I mean, they weren't going to take things seriously, why should I? I played punch wizard the melee warlock for like a year and talked mad shit about the Titans because the game design was so silly that I just found it amusing to play the "wrong" way. And playing it the "right" way so often just meant doing what you were told, because there was exactly one way to resolve any given situation and you would never, ever figure it out on your own without watching a guide or spending dozens of hours doing excruciating trial and error to figure out the obtuse bullshit. I did end up doing a few raids eventually, but I was biting my tongue the whole time because they were just so stupid. Oh, is stepped on the wrong plate and now we all die? Because some arbitrary timer ran down? Why? I have a gun that can kill god but i can't shoot this glass to escape the gas filled room or just punch that guy who is inexplicably invincible to death or whatever? I know there's types of gamers and I am extremely the "I like to solve problems and resolve situations my own way and immediately view it as a challenge when the game tells me I can't do something that seems very obvious or must do something in a way that is completely counter-intuitive. If a game verb suddenly doesn't behave consistently for arbitrary or unclear reasons it's either a challenge or an insult.
There's some background, here. I am almost, but not quite, part of the very first MMO generation. Everything most people have experienced in most MMOs is because me and my friends taught the world how not to make massively multiplayer online games. Ultima Online wasn't the very first MMO, I think there was one called Albion or something, but Ultima was the first big MMO. Richard Gariott was will known, Origin was widely respected, it was 1997, anything was possible. Ultima was based on the idea of making a MUD (Multi-User-Dungeon) with graphics and a UI. they'd take some of the established norms and ideas of MUDs and map them on to Ultima's huge, well known world. All the Ultima stuff was there - Lord British's castle, all the dungeons, all the towns. They filled it with caves and caverns and run down forts and monsters and treasure and basically just said "This is a sandbox for you to play in. Go play. Tell stories. Have adventures. Have fun!" And it was a disaster. There are so many famous stories of things that went wrong. Originally monsters could gain skill point, gradually becoming better at whatever skills they had using the same system as the players. Well, it turned out that most players were not actually up to the challenge of killing a wolf. So that wolf got skill points. And kept getting skill points. And eventually reached a point where no one could kill the fucking thing and it would just wreck anyone who came near it. So monsters gaining skill points was out. They tried to have a real eco-system, with predators hunting herbivores and animals reproducing and young animals growing up. Well, players clear cut the entire world and killed every livinng thing on it, so the ecosystem was gone and mobs spawning in predictable places at predictable rates was in. No one on the dev team expected player hording behavior where players would just gather up everything and squirrel it away in their houses for no clear reason. I don't know how they eventually fixed that, i think it was weight limits on containers. They never did fix item duping, and after the first weekend when someone figured out how to dupe piles of gold the gold economy was ruined forever. It probably still hasn't recovered. "Real" currency because things that were truly limited - glitched or bugged items that players were never supposed to be able to manipulate, either because of bugged spawns or just because one of the game's story tellers (they had employees and volunteers interacting with players like a TTRPG in real time, just wingning it with a small suite of tools and pure balls out gumption!) forgot to lock the item down and make it un-interactable. If you had a pineapple with a mirrored image you were a rich person. The right handful of bananas could buy a small house. Absolutely silly, but the rare items market was the definitive means by which anything of serious value changed hands.
It was all just such a glorious mess. There were no levels - If you did something you got better at it. If you didn't use a skill the skill faded. If you got killed you'd take permanent skill loss. That proved to be too much so they added on-death protections, then just made skill loss more and more temporary. There were no classes - Some skills comlimented each other, But if you wanted to practice mining, potion brewing, bardic, and staff fighting on the same character you could do that. Almost everyone had 30 magery so they could cast the basic "recall" teleport spell to get around. Most people had exactly the amount of healing skill needed to have a chance of rezzing someone and would just spam the heal ability until they rolled high enough to rez the dead player. Skill gain took ages. I think it took a year for the first person to hit 100 magery, the skill cap. Having the 80 magery needed to cast "Gate", the portal spell that would let groups of people travel to and from any point you had previously marked with a special spell, was a huge deal. You were important and guilds wanted to have you because you could transfer parties of adventurers, or even armies, around the map much faster than boats or horses or using the moon stones. People with high pickpocketing could wreak havoc in cities, and poisoners were a rare but steady problem. The devs learned early on that the town guards needed to be both invincible and deal immense damage to keep people from farming them for equipment or taking over towns. Eventually they settled on a crime system where if a player did something that flagged them as a criminal they'd be instantly killed by lightning and guards would spawn in even though they really didn't do anything anymore.
The biggest unforeseen problem turned out to be the problem of evil; The Devs, and all the MUD players whose experience and ideas made it in to the game, had always played MUDs as part of relatively small communities where people had connections with each other and often contributed to the game by writing new scenes, helping with backend programming and server costs, and so forth. People came to roll play, they made friends, there were social reprecussions for being a dick. But Ultima servers had thousands of people on them. Most were complete strangers, the scale was unprecedented at the time. And players could attack other players. We called them Player Killers. I don't know who came up with the term PvP or when, but I don't think we used it. These weren't characters who fought each other as part of some roleplaying duel or came in to conflict organically. This was basically the prototype of the Rust player base - They had found a place where they could hurt other people without reprecussions and they discovered that they
liked it. You could tell when they were coming, they all dressed the same. The cheapest way to get armor and weapons in the game was to go to a graveyard and kill the undead skeletons that would spawn there. They dropped distinctivbe bone armor. As protection it was shit, but you could get a whole set together in ten minutes of farming without interacting with another human or using any gold or other resources. Then you'd go to your buddies house to get a cheap, shitty halberd, which had the highest burst damage in the game. You'd tame some horses, and then you and your buddies would ride around at top speed until you found someone, anyone, outside the protection of the town guards. And you'd kill them, and taunt them, and take all of their things no matter how worthless, and ride away.
We tried to deal with it in game. In repsonse to the PKs there were APKs, anti-player killers. Basically militias that could be gathered together very quickly (when we pretty much only had IRC to work with) to ride out and fight player killers. The problem was that PKs were immortal. There was a floor below which their skills could no longer fall. At the floor they were very bad with their halberds, but most of the crafting and gathering characters they targetted had low health and few or no defense skills. Why would you need them when you're just out picking flowers or sheering sheep? And if there were five or six or a dozen PKs it didn't matter - they'd land a few hits eventually and when players capped at 100 hp and a halber could do 24-50 damage against an unarmored player they didn't need to get lucky much. If you killed them they'd pop up as a ghost, run to the nearest rez shrine, and go to the grave yard for new weapons and armor, and then come screaming back in to battle with all the other Pk's you'd killed just minutes ago. There is no way to actually stop immortal trolls motivated by a sadistic joy in the misery of others, as the internet later learned. First they made it so that players who attacked another player could themselves be attacked without any reprecussions. That lead top thing like having an obvious thief walk up to a playerm follow them around, and make it very obvious they were trying to steal things from the players pack. When the player attacked them that player would be flagged the agressor and the thiefs buddies would jump out of hiding and kill them. And no one could retaliate without being flagged a criminal and suffering the same fate, either being taken down by the thieves or by a well meaning passer by. Eventually the changed how flagging worked so failed pickpocket attempts counted, and then the tactic changed to having an invisible pickpocket take something. When the player noticed it was missing they'd assume the visible thief had it and had been flagged as a criminal when they stole it, and attack. But since the invisible thief had done the crime it was the victim who ended up flagged and, shortly after, murdered. They tried all kinds of systems to stop it. Flagging people as murderers. Restricting them from rezzing until a cooldown had passed. They just made alts. restricting them from rezzing at shrines at all. They had alts wait safely in locked houses to rez them. Evcentually it got so bad, and was so disruptive to the player base, that the gamer was failing. Players were leaving and new players were being dissuaded from trying the game. So to save their project and their profits, Origin did what was probably the most fated and consequential act in the history of multiplayer gaming - They split the world in half.
"trammel" (a hobble or rope used to prevent a horse from moving) was the "Good world" where PvP was just off. You couldn't attack players, you couldn't be attacked. "Feluca" (a small, agile, fast moving ship) was the "bad world" where all the old rules applied and non-consensual PvP was still possible. A lot of people hated it at the time. A lot of players (and probably some devs), viewed it as capitulation. The sadists had won; They'd created a world where it was impossible for anyone else to enjoy themselves, no way had been found to fix it, so the developers completely changed the rules. it was derrided as "Care bear land". The organic conflicts and feuds that had arisen out of the interactions of role players in the early days of teh game were no longer possible. You couldn't take control of a bridge and demand a toll from passersby, they could just ignore you. Nor could you ride out to chase off the villains at the bridge. That whole aspect of gameplay could no longer happen organically. You had to arrange it all in advance, if at all.
And Feluca just died. None of the vulnerable crafters and non-combat players that had been targetted by PKs wanted to be there. The "good" combat oriented players all followed them; They needed the crafters for supplies, armor, equipment, and those people were their friends anyway. Why hang out in an empty, dangerous world alone? When all the "good" players left the PKs quit the game. Without victims they lost interest. What we ended up with was one world where safety was enforced by divine law, and a dead, empty world where no one went, both because no one was there and because the PKs who remained in the game were the ones who were really dedicated, skilled at PvP, and basically unstoppable unless you could muster an larger force of equally skilled PvP players.
The lesson that the industry learned from this grand misadventure was that freedom, player agency, choice, and variety were bad. If you had kids playing in sand box you would also inevitably have bullies beating them up and stealing their toys. In real life those kids would leave the sandbox (or beat the bullies to death with a brick idk I was not a well adjusted child and didn't have a lot of friends). In the game, which was a for profit commercial product, those customers would cancel their subscriptions (this was before MTX, so MMOs were on a subscription model. Usually 10$/mo, which seems quaint in the age of battle passes with extra premium battlespaces) and you wouldn't get their money.
There were other problems with choice. What if a player went somewhere they weren't supposed to go? In Ultima getting stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean when your boat was stolen by (player) pirates, or left behind on Hythloth because your buddy tried to run away from a giant python but the python followed him on to the boat and killed him while you watched watched the boat drift away from shore.
What if the player just didn't know what to do? What if they chose tailoring, peacemaking, and carpentry as their starting skills and didn't like any of those? What if they didn't understand the combat system and kept getting rekt by skeletons because they didn't know how to go in to combat mode?
A sandbox was too uncertain. Too much risk. Too much freedom. What was needed was a theme park. The player should enter through a grand facade and then be gently lead from ride to ride. Everything should be exciting and fun and, at all times, carefully managed. No going on the path. No opening doors marked "Employees only". If you try to steal the spinning teacups and declare war on the players over in the mushroom forest we will call the police.
So what we got was WoW. Everquest clamped down on freedom a good bit - Their game had levels, fixed classes, and a number of other portents of the disaster to come, but players still had a lot of freedom to fuck around and do whatever they wanted. But there was no freedom in WoW. You picked a class, then you went to the starting zone. You did not leave the starting zone until you were level fifteen and ready for the 15-25 zone, because if you did the level system had been tuned to ensure you would be instantly killed by anything even five levels more powerful than you. You were free to explore the confines of your enclosure, you were free to play with the toys provided in the manner described in the instructions, you were free to fight the same boss over and over and over again. When you had completely the appropriate rituals a number of times deemed sufficient to the devs you could progress to the next little content island, and so on and so forth, until you reached the "End game".
Ultima online didn't have an end game. When your skills were completely shit you'd find a bunch of people who seemed cool then go have ridiculous adventures. I got stuck on islands. I got chased out of dragon caves. I was party to very tense negotiations when two badly wounded parties ran in to each other in the woods and we were both convinced the other was about to murder us and steal our stuff. i was involved in several wars, a few weddings, and one funeral. And if you'd played the game for a long time, you had a house and a comfortable amount of savings and a chest full of good gear? You were running around in the same group as me, bc there were no level restrictions. You were fighting the dragons while I was applying bandages because even if you were bad at the healing skill you could apply some healing, and since there were no limits on party size and no classes you really could have a group with a couple of new players and a couple of veterans fighting dragons together in some god forsaken cave. Sure, the new players would get OHK'd if a dragon aggro'd on them, but the cap on HP was pretty low so the experienced players needed to be on their toes, too, and the healing and chip damage the new players could contribute was still enough to be useful.
None of that in WoW. Dungeons were designed for a specific party size with a specific composition of classes at a specific level. Once you levelled out of an region you were discouraged from coming back - You couldn't gain XP from mobs in that area, nor could lower level players benefit if you killed mobs for them. The resources and items there were too weak to use against monsters in your new curaed
content zone, so farming was pointless. Once you'd "finished" an area there was nothing to do except move on until you hit the level cap, and thus the end game. One of the problems that has plagued multiplayer online games every since the days of World of Warcraft is the terrible "End game". In a sandbox the game has no beginning or end. There's just stuff to play with. You make your own fun. You hang out with your friends. You do silly shit like gather everyone on your forum to dress like farmers, get pitchforks and then run around the world as a revolutionary rabble accosting anyone who looks to be of noble blood (In 1999 a UO player with 100pts in strength, Swords, parrying, and full plate armor could kill approximately 19 angry peasants before being dragged down by a tide of pitchforks. Our study was rigorous).
But if the entire game consists of a single hallway which you move down at a steady pace, never turning back or moving side to side, you'll eventually reach an end. And then what? The Devs have created a problem for themselves. If the players reach the end of the game they'll stop playing and move on, taking their money with them. The devs need something to keep the player's attention. They came up with a couple of miserable solutions and we've all suffered since then. One was PvP - A lot of games in those days were "PvP is the end game". Most of them had some kind of sport-like king of the hill system for players who had reached the level cap. Most of them were wretched - The class based system meant that not only were some players mechanically helpless against other classes, there was usually no way to change that. The DPS was always going to slaughter the healer, the tank was helpless without the healer, whatever, it was a long time ago, all I really remember is that people with meta rogue builds made the PvP miserable for everyone else. But that only worked for players interested in PvP. The other thing they came up with was raids. A raid is basically a slots machine that requires a forty person theatrical performance every time you want to put a coin in. You'd have to gather a huge group of people, all with very specific classes and very specific optimized builds, who would then have to act in very specific ways for up to several hours. if everything went perfectly you would then get to pull the handle on the slot machine for a chance to receive the meaning and purpose you'd been waiting for your entire wretched lives. It's not a direct line from raids to loot boxes but the line isn't that crooked, either.
RNG existed in Ultima, but it wasn't really a big deal. There were valuable items, and specific monsters that dropped them. But it wasn't that important. You could, and the vast majority of people did, go anywhere and fight anything wtih iron armor made from bog standard iron ore by a player blacksmith. It didn't even cost very much, i think it was like 1k gold when I was playing, which was fairly easy to farm up in an hour or so. Repairs were free by common agreement of all the blacksmiths in the game, and while I was always nervous handing my armor and weapons over to a stranger for repairs, knowing they could just keep them and I'd have no recourse, I was never robbed. Mages needed specific flowers and rocks and things to cast spells, but those could be found here and there all over the world. Farming certain monsters for them was more efficient if you had the right skills, but the devs goal was to make those reagents available so players could play the game and the spawn rates were consistent and generous. What truly rare items there were were valuable mostly for bragging rights. it was something cool to display in your house, or to wear in town when you were hanging out with your friends (around the bank, because everyone was always moving two and from the bank to store or retrieve items and it became the de-facto spot for gossip and socializing.) Items that could make you more powerful in gameplay existed, and were useful, but they were also consumable - They'd inevitably break with use, and the bonuses they provided were good but not overwhelming. A player blacksmith with ~75 skill could reliably make swords as good as the 3rd out of 5 tiers of magic swords that existed in the game. Basically - Gear was created and used by players, rather than being collected from rare drops on monsters.
In Wow, famously, drops were rare, extremely desirable, and contentious. Gamers of a certain age will remember "50 DPK Minus!" and similar jokes about the elaborate systems people devised to distribute loot in WoW raids. Later games would incorporate built-in systems for distribution loot. Why trust something that contentious to players?
Things continue in this general vein throughout the 00s and the 10s. People keep trying to make sandbox games, but the sad reality is that if a game is accessible to the public it's accessible to sadistic shitheads who will drive off anyone who isn't dedicated to PvP with no other goals. Meanwhile WoW became vastly successful. It spawned an enormous number of imitators and competitors but few managed to establish themselves. And over in teh single player field some fucking demon from hell wondered "If people will pay 20$ for an expansion pack with some new quests and enemies and items and adventures, what's the floor of what they will buy? What is the lowest possible effort I could put in to something and still sell it for, say, 5$?
In 2005 Todd Fucking Howard changed internet history by offering the fucking horse armor for sale for five fucking dollars. It was the first microtransaction. It was the beginning of the end of gaming. The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, was wildly successful and one of the things it iterated on from it's predecessor Morrowind was doing what Ultima had done back in 1997 and giving the player a horse. And the horse armor was armor, for the horse. It wasn't purely cosmetic. It did increase the horses hit points but a few hundred, making it slightly more durable. But the player could also do this with a console command, or with about 10 minutes effort in the included editor. In fact I'm almost certain that either before or shortly after people did create some new models for the horses with armor on them.
But whatever. none of that matters. Enough people bought the horse armor. WHere before games could only make money when they released the full product or sold relatively resource intensive expansion pack Todd "I am literally the spawn of satan and the death of hope" Howard had proved that people would provide real american dollars in exchange for purely cosmetic fluff that should have been part of the game in the first place.
Destiny launched, idk, like a decade or so later. Destiny had honed things to a fine degree. Now all loot was rng. You need a gun? Fuck you, farm for it. You need upgrade mats? Oh, you want to go to any mountain in the game and use your mining skill to mine for ore that you can then use your blacksmith skill to smelt in to ingots which you can then turn in to equipment for your fellow players? Fuck you. Farm for it. And no trading between players. Want any progression or cosmetics or anything? Your options are farm it and pray to RNJesus, or fork out more cash in addition to the full price you already paid for the title.
Destiny has basically everything I hate about MMOs. You can only go places that are level appropriate. Otherwise you're locked out, your guns just arbitrarily don't do enough damage while the enemy's guns kill you almost instantly. Everything gated behind farming and rng. Instead of fucking around, exploring, playing, you farm. You do the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result. The psychologists have tuned the drop rate just so that a certain kind of person will be perpetually trapped between the thrill of success and the bored of repetition, unable to escape. You want to play with your friends? Sorry, there's only room for three people on the ride. Since everything is scripted and instanced and designed to be run x number of times by the average player ensuring y hours of gameplay during which they will statistically spend z on mtx we can't allow you to have more than two friends, ever. Unless you want to do a raid! To get the rare, exclusive, powerful, sexy, desirable raid items! All you have to do is learn a complex ritual dance where you do arbitrary bullshit that breaks all the normal rules of the game in exactly the right way with precise timing, and then repeat that many many times *(during which you will statistically spend z on mtx) and then you'll get whatever shiny object they were dangling in front of you.
I'm sure this all just sounds like an old treat enjoyer whining at this point. Horse armor won. Everything is MTX now. Even games like DRG that are mostly very player-friendly still have seasons with free battle-pass progression that serves to retain player interest in relatively small gameplay additions and new game modes, stretching the products profitable life span using limited development resources. Sequels have given way to "Games as a Service", a truly cursed idea that I am told left Satan vomitting on the floor from distress. This, in turn, gave way to Activision's innovative "Games as a Service but we release one at full price every year then monetize the shit out of goddamn everything" model, which actually killed Satan.
Gaming was never good or anything, it's always been treats for people wealthy enough to own computers and consoles, but there was a time when you could ignore that. There was a time you didn't have a british tart yelling at you about how nice you'd look if you spent ten american dollars on a digital overcoat. Running across mtx cosmetics in a single player game where you had no one to even show them to was once unthinkable, but now many games sell additional cosmetics even if htey have no multiplayer component at all.
It's all gambling and manipulation and bullshit, and being wracked by severe mental illness and isolated by the pandemic I have about two breakdowns a year when I realize that I'm largely helpless in the face of this bullshit even while being painfully aware of how I'm being manipulated. I am somewhat proud that I did eventually quit destiny, at least, cutting off one shitty manipulative experience, but I miss the escapism part of a hobby that used to provide some kind of escape from the horrors of the world. idk. Fuck. I'm just old and sad and broken and tired, and now I can't even get away from some shitass marketing ghoul when I'm pretending that I actually have agency and purpose in the privacy of my own home.
i don't mean this disparagingly, but have you considered starting a blog?
I have several. The problem is that I routinely forget that I have them until I get the itch to start a blog again, find that my internet handle is already taken, then do password recovery and discover that I started a blog on that site twelve years ago. I just gave up after a while. This is probably the most effort effortpost I've made in a long time. I'm tired and kind of miserable and just wanted to talk. I haven't had a lot of chances to do that since everything went to hell.
(In 1999 a UO player with 100pts in strength, Swords, parrying, and full plate armor could kill approximately 19 angry peasants before being dragged down by a tide of pitchforks. Our study was rigorous).
hahaha. Really well written post, made my morning :)
We tried to deal with it in game. In repsonse to the PKs there were APKs, anti-player killers. Basically militias that could be gathered together very quickly (when we pretty much only had IRC to work with) to ride out and fight player killers. The problem was that PKs were immortal. There was a floor below which their skills could no longer fall. At the floor they were very bad with their halberds, but most of the crafting and gathering characters they targetted had low health and few or no defense skills. Why would you need them when you’re just out picking flowers or sheering sheep? And if there were five or six or a dozen PKs it didn’t matter - they’d land a few hits eventually and when players capped at 100 hp and a halber could do 24-50 damage against an unarmored player they didn’t need to get lucky much. If you killed them they’d pop up as a ghost, run to the nearest rez shrine, and go to the grave yard for new weapons and armor, and then come screaming back in to battle with all the other Pk’s you’d killed just minutes ago. There is no way to actually stop immortal trolls motivated by a sadistic joy in the misery of others, as the internet later learned. First they made it so that players who attacked another player could themselves be attacked without any reprecussions. That lead top thing like having an obvious thief walk up to a playerm follow them around, and make it very obvious they were trying to steal things from the players pack. When the player attacked them that player would be flagged the agressor and the thiefs buddies would jump out of hiding and kill them. And no one could retaliate without being flagged a criminal and suffering the same fate, either being taken down by the thieves or by a well meaning passer by. Eventually the changed how flagging worked so failed pickpocket attempts counted, and then the tactic changed to having an invisible pickpocket take something. When the player noticed it was missing they’d assume the visible thief had it and had been flagged as a criminal when they stole it, and attack. But since the invisible thief had done the crime it was the victim who ended up flagged and, shortly after, murdered. They tried all kinds of systems to stop it. Flagging people as murderers. Restricting them from rezzing until a cooldown had passed. They just made alts. restricting them from rezzing at shrines at all. They had alts wait safely in locked houses to rez them. Evcentually it got so bad, and was so disruptive to the player base, that the gamer was failing. Players were leaving and new players were being dissuaded from trying the game. So to save their project and their profits, Origin did what was probably the most fated and consequential act in the history of multiplayer gaming - They split the world in half.
Eve Online's early "M0o" days were a lot like this and the Randroid devs that ran the game were fine with it until it was clear they were losing their early playerbase.
Your story about UO reminds me so much of the early days of Star Wars Galaxies.
The idea sounded great on paper. It was meant to be a vast open sandbox with a variety of planets and a vague promise of unlimited open ended storytelling, but contrary to the "PRE CU FTW" memes that have lasted longer than the fucking game did, the game was always a mess, especially early on, though still fun in its own janky ways.
Before the holocron craze tore the community apart and made almost everyone abandon being entertainers, doctors, and the like all in pursuit of the biggest mistake of all, the Alpha Class(tm), the game did have a vibrant and strange and (of course) horny playerbase that really could hang around a cantina, or even a camp in the wilderness, and fuck off all day somehow finding it fun. Suburban blight became a problem because housing appeared on the actual maps and resource extraction and power generation also required its own eyesore buildings, but the early version of the game wandered off into the weeds yet the weeds were their own probably accidental fun anyway.
When the Alpha Class(tm) Jedi holocron craze really took off, with so many Epic G!mer assholes not only smugly insisting it's fair that crowds of like 20+ people couldn't kill a pvp flagged glowbat user infinite healing themselves but also whining to the devs until the devs removed permadeath from the Alpha Class(tm) (which was supposed to be the balancing factor of having one to begin with!), that was when things really went to shit, and that was before the "Combat Upgrade" that started all the "PRE-CU FTW" :wojak-nooo: memes.
The CU's problem was that it was a clumsy and poorly presented bandage over the massive bleeding wound that having an Alpha Class(tm) started in the game. It wasn't the only problem: the game's stats and mechanics were so unintuitive and janky from the start that some classes could kill themselves faster by firing their guns than enemies could kill them by hitting them (RIP Carbineer), and wearing armor protective enough to survive hard fights required battle drugs so there were lines to get juiced up for temporary near-invincibility when fighting big monsters, but that's yet another story.
By the time the New Game Experience, or "NGE" as :wojak-nooo: called it while screaming bloody murder (sometimes literally, when talking about the devs), the damage had already been done. The one good thing about the NGE that the "PRE CU FTW" memelords never accepted was making Jedi just a class, no longer an Alpha Class(tm). It should have never been a thing to begin with and I'm glad Old Republic didn't make that mistake, the "Historical Accuracy" of Force users in a space fantasy setting be damned.
I never played SWG but I remember at the time thinking that making Jedi playable was an absolutely terrible idea. UO also had the urban sprawl problem. Players could slap houses down anywhere outside of specific city zones so there were houses everywhere. Any plot with enough unobstructed space had a house on it. Castles weren't valuable just because they cost so much in-game gold to buy, but because there was so, so little real estate that the number of them was always very small compared to other buildings. People found all kinds of creative ways to stack some of the smaller player houses on top of larger ones to have more room. Player houses would decade after a few weeks if their owner didn't log on to refresh them, and hordes of people would spend days waiting around the decaying house to try to placer a new house in the space, all competing to click faster than the others.
The idea of having player housing in the world was cool in some ways - RP guilds and PvP guilds could have their bases in the world and use them as part of their stories or battles. You could just stumble on people hanging out in their tower or whatever. Player vendors were a huge part of the economy; You could put your player crafted goods in them, set a price, and they'd sell while you were offline. I guess that sort of turned in to auction houses, but the difference was that player vendors were placed in the world just wherever. Houses near the entrances of dungeons or other important areas were incredibly valuable bc you could stock your vendors with basic consumables - potions, arrows, bandages - and be assured of a steady and profitable income.
It's really upsetting watching a genuinely fun game shoot itself in the foot.
Stop playing AAA shite. Indies are the best they've ever been now. Case in point, you mentioned DRG being the good one.
Either you mod AAA or play indies. Or go retro with roms. I'm an old fucker so maybe I am out of touch but games these days sometimes look like slot machines. It's just a scam built on top of another scam. Remember when you could still host a private server? 20 years ago I ran a mechwarrior 4 clan server where it was zero armor, dumbfire rockets only. Basically instagib but with robots. We had so much silly fun. People liked it! It was a change of pace from the meta stuff.
Edit: and this might dox me a bit but my (all male) buddies used to name our open server "Girls Only" and horny dudes would log on and we'd team kill or otherwise coordinate to spawn camp. Shit was so funny. "You guys are a bunch of <f slurs>" was common right before we booted them.
I’m an old fucker so maybe I am out of touch but games these days sometimes look like slot machines. It’s just a scam built on top of another scam. Remember when you could still host a private server?
I constantly shift between nostalgia and rage about the murder of privately hosted servers. So much of the skinner box gambling shit only works because the fuckers once again enclosed the commons and forced to you to play by their rules on their servers. Every couple of weeks I launch in to a tirade about how in my day we hosted our own servers with our own rulesets and uploaded our own skins and guns and didn't have to pay anyone anything and then the kids metaphorically put sedatives in my apple juice and wheel me out on the to porch for a nap.
The one that really makes me sad is people who defend Microsoft's Live service. "They have to pay for the servers!" my brother in christ what do you think the sixty dollars you gave them for the game is for? It's like people don't know or get that hosting your own private server on your own hardware cost effectively nothing once they stopped charging by the minute for net connectivity. Charging people rent just to let them access the server browser for their game that they're playing on their internet using their hardware is one of those grifts where I cannot help but be impressed in the moments where I'm not gagging.
The removal of server browsers is another one that bothers me. "Matchmaking" is such BS. Great, I'm so happy that now I can't play with my friends because we're all in different matchmaking tiers, and every match is a no-fun allowed sweatfest. I can't even remember the last time I saw a "knives only" round or a "grenades only" round in an FPS. I'm sure it still happens somewhere. I hope.
“Girls Only”
Amazing. I wish I could have been there.
I agree on all points. I hate matchmaking. How am I gonna get better if I only play at my tier? I don't have ego about this shit. I don't mind dying 20 times if I'm learning how to get better.
And yeah the "girls only" shit was so funny. Dude logs on "yo are there any girls here?" We would reply "no and neither are you so gtfo" then commence the abuse. It is hilarious how long some dudes would last before they quit or we kicked them for slurs.
So much of the skinner box gambling shit only works because the fuckers once again enclosed the commons and forced to you to play by their rules on their servers.
ActiBlizz actively murdered the very LAN community that made Battle Dot Net a success to begin with. :capitalist-laugh:
I do play a lot of games that are indie, that are extremely niche, that are weird german simluations where the only documentation that exists is written in a dialect of Flemmish that was extinguished by the plague in the 15th century. Hell, I remember when Bungie was a small indie studio, before Gates got his claws sunk in and bought them out to have a flagship title for his fucking direct-x box. Fun fact - I used to play Halo:CE online. Over the internet. In 2001. A year before whatever scion of hell dreamed up the idea of charging people a subscription fee to play the games they paid for on the hardware they paid for over the internet the paid for. There was a world LAN tunneling program you could use to play with anyone with an internet connection and an x-box. I'm not saying that everything has gotten worse in every way my entire life, but I'm not not saying that.
Of the 17 games I've played this month CoD is the only one that counts as AAA. I guess Naraka would count, as it apparently has an enormous Chinese player base, but it's practically unheard of in the US. I'm the 37th best player in my state because there are apparently only 37 players in my state. Of those 17 11 have some kind of MTX or cosmetic DLC.
"Sir this is a wendy's" is the philosophical, moral, and textual equivalent of his response to me, so good call.
A Wendy's with a shittier menu and worse treatment of its employees every year but people that just showed up tell you it's fine and to shut up. :so-true:
This is too much Destiny theory for my ADHD, but the OG team fortress was a Quake II mod in 1996.
We need a :I-Was-there-gandalf: emote for us olds.
Ahh. I was not aware. I will add that to my great repository of obsolete gaming knowledge.
Though if the original TF was on quake then what half life mod was I playing? Okay, per the wiki I was thinking of Team Fortress Classic, which was developed by Valve based on the OG Team Fortress.
The original half life was developed on the quake 2 engine I want to say, still a solid bit of code back before John Carmack tried building rocket chairs that didn't work.
That sounds right.
What was Carmack doing with rocket chairs? I never heard that story.
He tried to get into the whole "tech nerds make rockets" thing before SpaceX was even a thing around the time Doom 3 was released
I have a soft spot for nerds who do space stuff. Way more than I do for billionaires who do it, at any rate.
The Rocket chairs worked, a little. He managed to win the NASA Lunar Lander prize, and a good chunk of his work was absolutely definitely not stolen by SpaceX for their vertical landing tech.
But his plan for boosting people to 150km up strapped to an open chair and landing them with rockets like the world's most unsafe tower of terror is hilarious
It actually has a solid amount of Q1 code, even, one of the last games to do so (along with the deeply troubling Soldier of Fortune.)
Im not really that much into shooters so I cant relate that much. But as a fan of grandstrategy and 4x games heck even citybuilders ? We live in great times.
Things do seem to be going well on that side. I'm told the latest Vicky is very good, and a bunch of my friends are trying to convince the Boron that it's actually fun to be warmongering profiteers in the new X4 expansion. God that game is so complicated. I put a lot of time in to it like two years ago and now I'm clueless when my friends ask me how to get a mining ship running our build a station.
I haven't had that specific problem, but the combat is very janky. The fighters are exactly as fragile as a tiny little space ship would be, and most battles are decided by how many ships you can bring to the battle. Some players can ace-pilot their way through engagements, but I've never been able to do it. The closest I come is using excruciating micro-management to keep my ships at exactly the range where they can hit Xenon destroyers but the xenon guns don't have the range to shoot back. Late in the game it stops being about your ship and starts being about fleet engagements between large groups of destroyers, and for performance reasons it's often a good idea to b e out-of sector directing the battle from the strategic map.
A lot of people have really poor media literacy, so it's not surprising that the average :freeze-gamer: doesn't have a solid understanding of the mechanics and gameplay loops of their favorite games.
Destiny is absolutely Halo, he must not have played Halo. It's intentionally made to feel almost exactly like Halo
That was the most frustrating thing about Destiny to me. It felt like coming home, only to find out home had been paved flat and replaced with a casino. : p It just felt icky being jarred out of a flow state by one of Destiny's enforced RPG mechanics, or getting a reminder that I was expected to grind to "level up", when all it was doing mechanically was turning off the damage and health penalty the game uses to gate content.
Right from the word go the fact that the red war campaign was designed with no challenge and no option to set it to a more challenging mode was offensive in a way it would take me months to fully articulate.
One of the biggest innovations in Halo, and one of the things that made it such a fun, successful game, was what I think they said at the time was something like the shoot-punch-grenade loop.
Jamie called it 30 seconds of fun that repeat forever and he was spot on. I still regularly play Halo 1 today because the core loop of the game is insanely good.
If not for the stupid purple hallway of zombies level, I might even consider it the perfect game. I got the original XBox the day it was released, and for the next two years I literally only owned Halo and one other game and was totally content with my purchase.
The only thing subsequent editions of Halo do better is to give you more vehicle levels and more diverse multiplayer maps. Everything after that... Halo is just the apex of 21st century shooters. It hasn't been topped yet and I don't anticipate that it will given the way the modern industry is just folding in on itself like origami someone set on fire.
Add in the splashes of comedy provided by the Covenant along with the at-least brain tickling Baby's First Politics of Human/Covenant relations and you've got a world that's at least as engaging as anything Starcraft churned out in the last 20 years.
Why do we need to reinvent the FPS Space Opera when we have a perfectly good FPS Space Opera back at home?
imo Titanfall was the first really big new game idea in the longtime. They made a movement system simultaneously useful and exciting enough to make massively asymmetric battles fun. The race to Titanfall made the start of each round absolutely electric, and running around as a pilot is such a blast that you don't feel that bad when your titan is destroyed.
imo Titanfall was the first really big new game idea in the longtime
It definitely was a good modern take on Mechwarrior, although I feel like Battlefield was doing Titanfall well before Titanfall (just... not nearly as good).
The race to Titanfall made the start of each round absolutely electric, and running around as a pilot is such a blast that you don’t feel that bad when your titan is destroyed.
Another unquestionably good game. I just had the sense that they synthesized a lot of existing elements, rather than doing anything profoundly different.
The big thing with titanfall was the incredible mobility given to pilots. I would equate it with tribes rather than battlefield. 2142 had mech and hover tanks and Battlefield as a whole traditionally makes very good use of vehicles, but it doesn't have an equivalent to the pilot's mobility kit.
I've been playing Warframe PvP and realizing just how much I miss the ludicrous mobility of Tribes, Titanfall, and the small number of similar games. In comparison so many modern shooters are outright sluggish. And being confined to mostly 2d movements makes maps far less dynamic than they could be. It's much harder to shotgun camp when the enemy can come in from any direction at 80mph. I may see if I can dig up a copy of Tribes 2 and find out what servers are still running. I'm just not aware of anything with the same focus on mobility right now.
Tribes was an amazingly good game. Sigh
I’m just not aware of anything with the same focus on mobility right now.
No, I agree. Modern games all feel very stripped down and focused on the engagement treadmill.
The days of people really reaching for the edge of what the latest Unreal Engine could do feel like they're behind us - or at least on the back burner.
Agreed. It's a shame Titanfall didn't really "stick" since it absolutely deserved to - and Titanfall 2's campaign was really good as well!
Are you talking about the libary? Love that level, the buildup to the flood is done so well.
It really is just elegant. Very few games since have managed to achieve that. You don't have to find your flow state, Halo shows you the way and encourages you.
I've played other games where I can hit that kind of no-mind state of pure awareness, but never as easily or consistently as with Halo.
Siege is a game about poking holes in walls then shooting people you don’t know.
Hey it's fairly well designed and interesting! It just attracts the worst, most sweaty playerbase imaginable because of the aesthetic.
Tbh I think it's not that Halo doesn't hold up because we moved past it design wise (though we kind of did, regenerating health and 2 gun limit are not everywhere anymore, thank fucking god), it's just that the good things it did became standard and so it's not that special anymore. You see the same thing with the Half-life games. Part of playing older games is lowering your expectations a bit and meeting them where they're at, but that becomes harder when there's all this mythologizing around how perfect the game was.
A lot of the older games are just... long. You pick up the original Halo or HL or whatever, and you expect to just be thrown into the best parts of everything. But the Best Parts are these rare moments of glee or comedy or satisfaction you receive after finding your rhythm and getting into the narrative of the game play. Also, of playing with friends your own age when its the summer and you've got all the time in the world.
I mean, a big part of nostalgia is just missing when you were younger and everything was fresh and new.
I only wish I could go back to 1996 and play Duke Nuke'm again, because I had so much fun with it despite it... not being a great game by any standards.
All I know is that I played halo 1 for the first time last year and thought it was pretty boring
Was there anything in particular that didn't impress you compared to modern games?
I'm just not really a fan of single player fps games. I just get bored shooting at ai, I'd rather fight against actual people, more unpredictable and interesting. I'm probably not the best to give any sort of critique as my most played games are in the list of ones you're saying are trash at the start of your post lol.
That's understandable. I enjoyed it most playing on the highest difficulty level with a friend. For it's time the Elites were fairly dynamic and challenging as AI, and Halo:CE was an extraordinary visual and storytelling experience for 2001. The graphics were very good, the soundtrack was and remains iconic, Cortana and Chief's dynamic worked very well. The missions had a nice variety of scenarios with tight close quarters battles, large open semi-exploration areas, power-fantasy vehicle sections, and some grand set piece battles. The abrupt switch from military sci-fi to eldritch horror halfway through the game was fun and I still consider a few play-throughs of the Library some of my fondest gaming moments. I also played it with some of my dearest friends that I have since grown distant from, which was a big factor.
The multiplayer experience was a big selling point at the time, and I guess it still is. Halo:CE had a couple of really solid maps, especially Blood Gulch. The weapons offered a nice balance of options. It was fun being able to play with vehicles. Networking several X-boxes together and getting like 20 kids in one room to play together was great. Xbox was the first time I really got to have a lan party experience with lots of people playing together in the same room. That was a good summer. We used to use a rule set where everyone was invisible with no shields and a sniper rifle. Idk why I remember that in particular, but sneaking around trying to spot the glimmer of another invisible player before they saw me stuck in my memory.
Re: trash games
I consider Counterstrike to be arguably the best game ever made, tied with chess and football. It's just as close to perfect as a game experience can get. I understand the appeal of Apex but I've never been able to play it without noticing all the ways the original island was designed for Titans and Pilots that were later removed from the game bc the devs thought it'd be too fast for players to handle. They may have been right. I've been playing Warframe PvP and it's extremely demanding trying to track where players are around you when both of you are flying in different directions at 30mph.
I honestly don't have anything kind to say about CoD. Whatever design philosophy is going on with that game is completely baffling to me. When I play it I mostly find myself playing to see what strange thing will happen next, like the time I discovered that CoD players don't know what to do when faced with a prone machine gunner defending a point, or the time I found out you can land the spawn helicopter on the other spawn helicopter, or the time I found out you can shoot down UAVs and spent the whole match denying the other team's UAVs. I think a lot of it, at least the in-game parts, is that I'm an extremely team-focused player and I keep trying to play the CoD team matches like I'm on a team, and it feels like I'm the only one doing that. Scenarios like hiding in a smoke cloud and killing one person after another wouldn't happen in most team FPS games bc someone would either using a ping or VOIP to warn others, or use an indirect fire weapon to clear me out, or rush me with a couple of people at once. But everyone in CoD is so individualistic that you can get away with just silly things. If I try to play CoD like CoD is supposed to be played I get destroyed, but when I do silly things like run around with a shield and smoke grenades i do quite well.
Rust I sort of get, in that I like sandbox games and messing around, but I've never really been able to do survival sandboxes bc so much of it is based around destroying things people have put a huge amount of time and effort in to, and in ambushing and killing people who have no real chance of fighting back. That's fine in a real war but I don't enjoy it. It's left me in an odd spot - I like that style of game for the freedom it gives you to explore and build things, but I'm not interested in the PvP that is often the core of the game.
Rainbow Six: Siege is fine, it's just not for me. I was around for the OG Rainbow, Which was very innovative for it's time for being punishingly realistic in terms of TTK, but also for giving you tight, measured control over your team in single player. You could plan out the entire raid on the target movement by movement and room by room, then pray that something went right when you blew the doors. Seeing Rainbow, and also Ghost Recon, become sillier and sillier over the years kind of soured me on the series, but then I wouldn't enjoy playing super-cops anymore anyway. I have been playing a VR game called Breachers that's sort of half way between Rainbow Lite and Counter-Strike. 5v5, fairly compact maps where specific walls, doors, and hatches in floors and ceilings can be breached, lots of gadgets like drones, flashbangs, proximity sensors, various area denial tools. It's very well done. It makes good use of strong art direction to create a compelling visual experience while being very efficient in it's use of hardware resources, which is to say it was designed for Quest and will run on a potato, but looks great. It has less destructibility than Siege so it's more about covering angles than making peep holes and having perfect map knowledge. But there's enough dynamism that things can go to hell very quickly, and since it's VR you can do lots of stupid tricks like banging on a wall then rolling a grenade under a door when someone comes to look, or blind firing around corners, or getting creative angles because you can actually physically move your body there. It's the only game where I can reliably use flash bangs without flashing myself because I can stand with my back to the wall and toss them through the door with one hand, almost completely removing the risk of it going off in my face.
I've never done any sort of lan parties and that does seem really fun. I did play a bit of halo multiplayer but it was just random matchmaking, and there are other things I'd rather be playing so I dropped it pretty quick.
Lan parties were a lot of fun. I'm sad that they're probably a cultural blip that existed for like 15 years before the technological standard that made them desirable stopped existing. One of my fondest memories is like 20 people sitting on a pile of couches in the dark watching our friend play Eternal Darkness with all of us screaming and gasping a that the dramatically appropriate moments like we were in a theater.
On the point about COD, you're right about it being so individualistic. I'm also like you in that I always try to play for objectives with my team in games, except for COD. I don't play it very often but I only play it because using the crossbow is so much fun. If I try to use an actual gun and do the objective and all that I'll have a good score and a high KD, but it's just not very fun. So instead I just run around on my own trying to long range snipe people with crossbow. My score is terrible but it just feels so good getting those crossbow kills. COD is the only game I play where I have to do intentionally stupid things to have fun. I don't know how so many people sprint around with assault rifles game after game on repeat and not get bored really quickly. I've only played the recent modern warfares and they're very weird games design wise. I also never played the singleplayer as it seems absolutely terrible.
I've only done the coop raids and DMZ and the AI is a mixed bag. They will aggressively use grenades and smoke sometimes, but most of the time they just peak out of cover at predictable intervals. A lot of the "Difficulty" in DMZ is that the AI just have so many damn hitpoints. I've got... uh... a distressing amount of playtime in Arma and I'm used to firefights happening at hundreds of meters where one or two hits are fatal. So when CoD has near 100% damage fall off and gives you "Long shot" bonuses for hitting someone with an AR at 100m, and the AI take half a magazine or more to bring down, it can be very frustrating.
I do appreciate having one gun that is just particularly fun to use and feels right.
That’s understandable. I enjoyed it most playing on the highest difficulty level with a friend. For it’s time the Elites were fairly dynamic and challenging as AI
They still are, I have yet to play another game with ai that compares to Halo 1's. Even the rest of the Halo's downgraded it for some reason. All of the Cods I played had embarrassingly bad enemies, they barely moved and generally seemed to be magically aware of the player. Never felt like they had any sense of self preservation either. In Kingdom Come they frequently just break and sometimes will just stand there after being shot with an arrow. Payday 2's ai is just extremely basic and boring.
The Covenant in 1 are believable, fair, and fun. Infinite is the only other game that similar ai but they don't work very well in the large open world. The interior sections of Infinite and the entirety of Halo 1 are the most fun I've ever had in a singleplayer fps. Shame it never became a thing to have good ai.
the best game ever made, tied with chess
There are like a hundred board games better than chess lmao
Many such cases. :I-was-saying:
Yes you can enjoy Halo but as an old that enjoyed Doom and Quake, Halo felt sluggish and "consoley" from the start. I sort of enjoyed Halo 2 for what it was worth but it was downhill from there for me.
EDIT: I missed part of what you wrote on the first skim over, so you probably already know about Marathon, but the link is fun anyway if you haven't seen it.
I could go extra :chomsky-yes-honey: on you and tell you that the Marathon series has an amazing deep lore dive just under the surface throughout the playthrough of each title, and Halo and Destiny are sort of stripped down versions of that story that get (to me) less and less interesting as they go on.
Durandal was way more interesting than Cortana ever was, for example, both in writing and characterization, and she's becoming even more of a tiresome yandere waifu cliche every time she shows up again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQaNQ_uePFk
Love Marathon, love the terminals, yes it's way more interesting than Halo's lore
Halo's lore is basically "It's a good thing our fascist space government had these ubermensch sooper soldiers lying around to fight the space muslims when the space zombies showed up!"
Like the Spartan program's explicit purpose in universe was to conduct terror raids against anti-colonial movements on planets trying to break away from the UNSC Junta. And people are like "No, see, it's UNSC intelligence that's bad, not mommy space mengele!" and it's like don't speak of the old magic to me, kid, I was there when it was written.
I was and remain so pissed that the sequels focused on the flood. The Covenant were actually weird and interesting. They had bright colors and smooth organic shapes and hints of a weird culture when everything was grey WWII nazi shooting games, but then 9/11 happened and they re-wrote the entire story in a weekend and suddenly the space muslims had genocided the whole human species and were about to blow up earth and we'd never won a battle against them and just forget that Cortana solo'd like five Convenant ships in the intro to Halo:CE, that never happened, we're besieged by an inferior race and we need top make space safe for human children or some shit.
There is a very, very real thing where my upset about stupid treats stuff is tied to the powerlessness of growing up during the 90s and being an adult in the 00s and just continually learning again and again in more and more terrifying ways that the bad guys won at everything, everywhere, and everything I'd been taught about anything was a lie. Being upset about Halo or Star Wars or whatever is "safe', psychologically, sort of.
Halo’s lore is basically “It’s a good thing our fascist space government had these ubermensch sooper soldiers lying around to fight the space muslims when the space zombies showed up!”
Halo was a non-starter for me from the start but I absorbed a lot of the lore anyway because fandom saturation was loud and everywhere. I didn't like feeling like a wheeled refrigerator with a gun and a camera bolted on it in the first game, and I sort of liked the attempt to have a second protagonist and perspective in the sequel, but it was all worse from there. I just don't "get" the :soypoint-1: obsession with Grown Up Child Soldier Dudebro McManpain Grizzlegrowl and his yandere computer waifu problems.
I really thought Halo would fucking explore how bad the military junta is, and instead they like barely referenced it during Reach and then dug headlong into fucking Forerunners and all this esoteric shit. If they had any fucking balls there would be a human civil war that you change sides on in the middle.
I remember the struggle between motion sickness and wanting to play more
Yeah, I mentioned Marathon. When I played Destiny I always rolled my eyes and held my tongue when people were gushing about Rasputin bc he really just sounds like a poorly executed attempt to re-do Durandal, hobbled by the episodic nature of Destiny and it's MTX bullshit. I honestly struggle with that a lot, when people are soooo excited about this new thing they found and it's something I encountered years or even decades ago, got sick of, and moved on from.
I have nothing to add except that I hold a grudge for Halo 1 saving the Xbox from being a dud and allowing capital em-dollar sign to establish a foothold in gaming.
I genuinely have no idea how XBox manages to keep going. I guess it's big enough that its marketing budget has become self-sustaining? Playstation and Nintendo can at least be explained by the existence of a lot of high quality exclusives.
It's funny bc that's kind of always been a problem. Even when the playstation and xbox first released there were long periods where there was nothing but shit games, or even just no games, coming out. Part of the reason Halo was so important is taht it was good enough, with enough replayability, to save the console from dying in content droughts.
Xbox has generally been a fuck and what got big on Xbox first generally wasn't good. :I-was-saying:
