Yeah what if. IDK I'm so bored by this Utopian shit yeah obviously it would be better but we're dramatically losing the class war we'd need to be winning to change it so maybe we should be focusing on that?
Everyone arguing you is missing the point. The Soviet Union used "utopian shit" alongside actual class warfare. 99% of utopian shit for the last three hundred years, though, has been nothing more than simply utopian shit with no connection to a larger movement.
And when it comes to online discourse, especially the insufferable terminally online discourse that makes up most of this site and twitter, it's even more ineffectual. People's brains are well-trained to take bad news and "solutions" in stride, then go right back to their life. That potential has been largely expended or captured by the culture industry.
Everyone arguing you is missing the point. The Soviet Union used “utopian shit” alongside actual class warfare.
Absolutely no talk of "utopian shit" until a perfect class warfare scenario is going on. That'll definitely recruit people sitting on the fence! :trot-shining:
And when it comes to online discourse, especially the insufferable terminally online discourse that makes up most of this site and twitter, it’s even more ineffectual. People’s brains are well-trained to take bad news and “solutions” in stride, then go right back to their life. That potential has been largely expended or captured by the culture industry.
On the other hand, shitting on those people to feel superior to them then going right back to your life is cool and good and praxis. :morshupls:
The point is that none of this is praxis, and if it isn't directly translating into praxis we need to reassess our strategy and involvement with it. We're pointing out that the "leaves" of ideals and concepts are nothing without the "roots" of interaction with the material, that we can't assume there's necessarily an exchange/dialectic going on between the two. Because the vast majority of it is leaves with no roots, as evinced by the powerlessness and ineffectiveness of the Western left, and even moreso the online left.
If people want to engage with treats and slop as a way of blowing off steam that's whatever, but even leftism-flavored slop is still slop if it isn't resulting in material impacts in the real world. A small fraction of the posts on this site have potential to be useful because they're actually discussing theory or hashing out strategies or helping people self educate. But most of it is arguing about slop/drama or terminally online stuff with not nearly enough engagement with the real world.
I think the culture of this site has shifted a lot as the more active/radical people shifted focus to real world organizing, leaving a higher ratio of terminally online people. Or maybe it's just disproportionately impacted by people with the free time to post 100 comments a day.
Neither is what you're doing, making the difference that one may inspire some little bit of morale in people that still have hope that a better world is possible, and the other makes you as an individual looking down on them feel smarter and superior to them. :very-intelligent:
Or maybe it’s just disproportionately impacted by people with the free time to post 100 comments a day.
Any job that has time for people to post is not a real job :Haz:
The discussion MF started has some potential utility if it's a vehicle for critically analyzing our strategy and engagement with ideals/culture. Critical/strategic discussion in general. But yeah, other than that, it's still just slop.
Feel free to prove me wrong, but I doubt you specifically are capable of having this kind of critical discussion because you spend most of your time in defensive/offensive mode about some argument you can't get over. But it's not really unique to you, it's internet culture in general. Fixated on easy wins and dunks and excessively insecure about the possibility of being wrong. Seems like 80% of the userbase (or maybe just those that make 80% of the comments) is more interested in "winning" whatever discussion than anything.
Like, step back from our "conversation" for a moment and critically analyze your response. You're not actually engaging with anything that I said, you're just attempting to "gotcha" me with reddit-tier inline quotes. This sort of shit is a key part of why online discourse is so removed from material impact. It squanders the small amount of utility that might have been gained from such a discussion because you're making no effort to understand the essence of what is being communicated, instead fixating on whatever little parts you can nitpick. But that's par for the course tbh
but I doubt you specifically are capable of having this kind of critical discussion
You came here to shit on other people for not actively organizing on a leftist shitposting forum to your satisfaction, presumably to take time out of your day actively organizing just to shit on those aforementioned people.
because you spend most of your time in defensive/offensive mode about some argument you can’t get over
SELF AWARENESS 100
Like, step back from our “conversation”
Gladly. I hope some day you can do the same. :mao-wave:
I came here to discuss the fact that culture and posting doesn't seem to translate into the material world, and hopefully get a better understanding of why so we can do better. But some people can't stand to have their treats criticized so they reacted defensively
The early Soviet Union went out of its way to propose "utopian shit," including sending trains full of proposals of "utopian shit" along rail lines just so peasants in the countryside could see that "utopian shit" and get inspired and motivated by it.
Much of the groundbreaking Soviet space program also had "utopian shit" to get people interested and get them excited enough to care about what could be.
What is your proposal for "winning the class war" that doesn't involve that?
Why do you believe that the transformation of the environment is not class warfare? What do you think the bourgeoisie were doing when they transformed cities around the world into car-centric, human-hostile concrete deserts were doing? Not class warfare?
Where are you going to get "troops" without recruiting them with a message? What is the message without "utopian shit?" You might win some of them over with sheer contrarianism but that won't work outside of college campuses.
I don't know where you got the idea that I'm nihilistic, I have hope I just don't care about these kinds of ideas until there's a people's movement. I definitely have no hope that just dreaming up cool things will change the world, but I have a lot of hope that organized popular movements can
I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m nihilistic
I just don’t care about these kinds of ideas
"Society can be improved somewhat, hey look at what can be done with this waste of land and resources and how relatively easy it would be to do it if the people took it back" being called "utopian shit" leaves room for... what? What would you offer to unaligned people that doesn't involve any "utopian shit" whatsoever?
I disagree with your assessment that this proposal is utopian. In fact, I think it is very practical and even practicable given community support. It is reappropriation of inefficiently used land for use in productive pursuit.
I also disagree that proposals to transform communities for the better are not related to class struggle. To take back what is ours (the land the golf course is occupying) from the capitalists is in fact class struggle.
I highly doubt that the way to turn around any "losing the class war" is to shit on people that still have hope for improving society somewhat. What is left if "utopian shit" is piously expunged? How the fuck are people supposed to care enough to organize or whatever without hope?
Contrarian nihilism is a laughably bad basis for a leftist movement.
Being practical and practicable is besides the point. Solving the climate crisis is practical and practicable too.
The point is to just say "hey you know what we should do is just take a toy of the richest in our society and redirect it to benefit everyone else" is to ignore the fact that that the reason the rich have this wasteful exclusionary toy is because they hold class power. Like yes obviously we should take all of their toys and redirect them for our benefit.
I also disagree that proposals to transform communities for the better are not related to class struggle. To take back what is ours (the land the golf course is occupying) from the capitalists is in fact class struggle.
Obviously it would be, but just saying how great it could be if you could just win a class struggle detached from actually organizing an atomized, disengaged and often reactionary working class is what I'm talking about being tired of.
Being practical and practicable is besides the point. Solving the climate crisis is practical and practicable too.
The point is to just say “hey you know what we should do is just take a toy of the richest in our society and redirect it to benefit everyone else” is to ignore the fact that that the reason the rich have this wasteful exclusionary toy is because they hold class power. Like yes obviously we should take all of their toys and redirect them for our benefit.
Destroying golf courses and car dependency are necessary steps in solving the climate crisis. You are shitting on real movements that are transforming real cities today for the better.
Apparently you think that engaging in class warfare under a bourgeois dictatorship is impossible. This is such an unspeakably wrong assumption that I am astounded. First of all, you should know that workers' unions and socialist movements have exacted victories from the capitalists under a bourgeois dictatorship. Class warfare is not automatically made impossible by the presence of a class dictatorship. It is possible for proletarians to engage in class warfare under a bourgeois dictatorship and vice versa (counterrevolutionary movements).
Second of all, there are real examples of cities being transformed for the better under bourgeois dictatorships. In the capitalist Netherlands, there was a mass movement called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child-Murder) which was an act of class warfare by proletarians to end capitalist-imposed car-dependency and unsafe road conditions. It was successful and the Netherlands as a whole is now known for walkable cities, with Amsterdam being the most famous. These victories are not limited to the Netherlands. All across the world, mass movements against capitalist-imposed car-dependency are underway and have transformed countless cities for the better, even in North America.
All of these movements involved drawing plans and diagrams of proposed redesigning of neighborhoods. All of these movements involved giving the people hope for a better future. Even under a bourgeois dictatorship, class warfare is possible, and we can win battles. To say that it is otherwise is factually wrong. We can take back what is ours and crush the bourgeoisie. If you think otherwise, you are a defeatist and not a leftist.
To answer your original comment, this literally is class warfare. Breaking the mind prison of capitalist realism is class warfare. You are engaging in capitalist realism with the added caveat of "but if we revolution tomorrow (idk how tho and i dont think we can) capitalism is over". Learn how to walk before trying to run.
actually organizing an atomized, disengaged and often reactionary working class
Trying to do that that without any "utopian shit" might work on a few contrarian nihilistic college students but it wouldn't be a winning message with anyone else.
"Utopian shit" has made some of the richest right wing grifters in world history. :my-hero: :lord-bezos-amused: Why concede the field to them just to feel grounded and piously hopeless?
Yo you’re right that ideas like these are meaningless without first taking power. But it’s also fun to look at a picture of what a golf course could be if sufficient power was directed at changing it. I’m just like taking a shit and looking at pictures on my phone here. Organizing happens elsewhere.
Yeah what if. IDK I'm so bored by this Utopian shit yeah obviously it would be better but we're dramatically losing the class war we'd need to be winning to change it so maybe we should be focusing on that?
Everyone arguing you is missing the point. The Soviet Union used "utopian shit" alongside actual class warfare. 99% of utopian shit for the last three hundred years, though, has been nothing more than simply utopian shit with no connection to a larger movement.
And when it comes to online discourse, especially the insufferable terminally online discourse that makes up most of this site and twitter, it's even more ineffectual. People's brains are well-trained to take bad news and "solutions" in stride, then go right back to their life. That potential has been largely expended or captured by the culture industry.
Absolutely no talk of "utopian shit" until a perfect class warfare scenario is going on. That'll definitely recruit people sitting on the fence! :trot-shining:
On the other hand, shitting on those people to feel superior to them then going right back to your life is cool and good and praxis. :morshupls:
The point is that none of this is praxis, and if it isn't directly translating into praxis we need to reassess our strategy and involvement with it. We're pointing out that the "leaves" of ideals and concepts are nothing without the "roots" of interaction with the material, that we can't assume there's necessarily an exchange/dialectic going on between the two. Because the vast majority of it is leaves with no roots, as evinced by the powerlessness and ineffectiveness of the Western left, and even moreso the online left.
If people want to engage with treats and slop as a way of blowing off steam that's whatever, but even leftism-flavored slop is still slop if it isn't resulting in material impacts in the real world. A small fraction of the posts on this site have potential to be useful because they're actually discussing theory or hashing out strategies or helping people self educate. But most of it is arguing about slop/drama or terminally online stuff with not nearly enough engagement with the real world.
I think the culture of this site has shifted a lot as the more active/radical people shifted focus to real world organizing, leaving a higher ratio of terminally online people. Or maybe it's just disproportionately impacted by people with the free time to post 100 comments a day.
Neither is what you're doing, making the difference that one may inspire some little bit of morale in people that still have hope that a better world is possible, and the other makes you as an individual looking down on them feel smarter and superior to them. :very-intelligent:
Any job that has time for people to post is not a real job :Haz:
The discussion MF started has some potential utility if it's a vehicle for critically analyzing our strategy and engagement with ideals/culture. Critical/strategic discussion in general. But yeah, other than that, it's still just slop.
Feel free to prove me wrong, but I doubt you specifically are capable of having this kind of critical discussion because you spend most of your time in defensive/offensive mode about some argument you can't get over. But it's not really unique to you, it's internet culture in general. Fixated on easy wins and dunks and excessively insecure about the possibility of being wrong. Seems like 80% of the userbase (or maybe just those that make 80% of the comments) is more interested in "winning" whatever discussion than anything.
Like, step back from our "conversation" for a moment and critically analyze your response. You're not actually engaging with anything that I said, you're just attempting to "gotcha" me with reddit-tier inline quotes. This sort of shit is a key part of why online discourse is so removed from material impact. It squanders the small amount of utility that might have been gained from such a discussion because you're making no effort to understand the essence of what is being communicated, instead fixating on whatever little parts you can nitpick. But that's par for the course tbh
You came here to shit on other people for not actively organizing on a leftist shitposting forum to your satisfaction, presumably to take time out of your day actively organizing just to shit on those aforementioned people.
SELF AWARENESS 100
Gladly. I hope some day you can do the same. :mao-wave:
I came here to discuss the fact that culture and posting doesn't seem to translate into the material world, and hopefully get a better understanding of why so we can do better. But some people can't stand to have their treats criticized so they reacted defensively
The early Soviet Union went out of its way to propose "utopian shit," including sending trains full of proposals of "utopian shit" along rail lines just so peasants in the countryside could see that "utopian shit" and get inspired and motivated by it.
Much of the groundbreaking Soviet space program also had "utopian shit" to get people interested and get them excited enough to care about what could be.
What is your proposal for "winning the class war" that doesn't involve that?
That's when you're supposed to start the Utopian talk yeah after you have found a way to counter class power
Why do you believe that the transformation of the environment is not class warfare? What do you think the bourgeoisie were doing when they transformed cities around the world into car-centric, human-hostile concrete deserts were doing? Not class warfare?
Obviously doing those things is class warfare, making diagrams isn't.
Do you think that one can transform the environment without diagrams or fight a battle without a battle plan?
No, but I think you have a better chance of winning a battle with troops and no plan than a plan and no troops
we dont have the troops. it is easier to acquire troops with a plan than without a plan.
Where are you going to get "troops" without recruiting them with a message? What is the message without "utopian shit?" You might win some of them over with sheer contrarianism but that won't work outside of college campuses.
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How is contrarian nihilism supposed to "do those things?" Sneering at people for having hope isn't going to organize them.
I don't know where you got the idea that I'm nihilistic, I have hope I just don't care about these kinds of ideas until there's a people's movement. I definitely have no hope that just dreaming up cool things will change the world, but I have a lot of hope that organized popular movements can
"Society can be improved somewhat, hey look at what can be done with this waste of land and resources and how relatively easy it would be to do it if the people took it back" being called "utopian shit" leaves room for... what? What would you offer to unaligned people that doesn't involve any "utopian shit" whatsoever?
deleted by creator
?
Sup
I disagree with your assessment that this proposal is utopian. In fact, I think it is very practical and even practicable given community support. It is reappropriation of inefficiently used land for use in productive pursuit.
I also disagree that proposals to transform communities for the better are not related to class struggle. To take back what is ours (the land the golf course is occupying) from the capitalists is in fact class struggle.
I highly doubt that the way to turn around any "losing the class war" is to shit on people that still have hope for improving society somewhat. What is left if "utopian shit" is piously expunged? How the fuck are people supposed to care enough to organize or whatever without hope?
Contrarian nihilism is a laughably bad basis for a leftist movement.
I agree. Without hope for a better future and the courage to create it, one may as well lay down and die.
Being practical and practicable is besides the point. Solving the climate crisis is practical and practicable too.
The point is to just say "hey you know what we should do is just take a toy of the richest in our society and redirect it to benefit everyone else" is to ignore the fact that that the reason the rich have this wasteful exclusionary toy is because they hold class power. Like yes obviously we should take all of their toys and redirect them for our benefit.
Obviously it would be, but just saying how great it could be if you could just win a class struggle detached from actually organizing an atomized, disengaged and often reactionary working class is what I'm talking about being tired of.
Destroying golf courses and car dependency are necessary steps in solving the climate crisis. You are shitting on real movements that are transforming real cities today for the better.
Apparently you think that engaging in class warfare under a bourgeois dictatorship is impossible. This is such an unspeakably wrong assumption that I am astounded. First of all, you should know that workers' unions and socialist movements have exacted victories from the capitalists under a bourgeois dictatorship. Class warfare is not automatically made impossible by the presence of a class dictatorship. It is possible for proletarians to engage in class warfare under a bourgeois dictatorship and vice versa (counterrevolutionary movements).
Second of all, there are real examples of cities being transformed for the better under bourgeois dictatorships. In the capitalist Netherlands, there was a mass movement called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child-Murder) which was an act of class warfare by proletarians to end capitalist-imposed car-dependency and unsafe road conditions. It was successful and the Netherlands as a whole is now known for walkable cities, with Amsterdam being the most famous. These victories are not limited to the Netherlands. All across the world, mass movements against capitalist-imposed car-dependency are underway and have transformed countless cities for the better, even in North America.
All of these movements involved drawing plans and diagrams of proposed redesigning of neighborhoods. All of these movements involved giving the people hope for a better future. Even under a bourgeois dictatorship, class warfare is possible, and we can win battles. To say that it is otherwise is factually wrong. We can take back what is ours and crush the bourgeoisie. If you think otherwise, you are a defeatist and not a leftist.
To answer your original comment, this literally is class warfare. Breaking the mind prison of capitalist realism is class warfare. You are engaging in capitalist realism with the added caveat of "but if we revolution tomorrow (idk how tho and i dont think we can) capitalism is over". Learn how to walk before trying to run.
Trying to do that that without any "utopian shit" might work on a few contrarian nihilistic college students but it wouldn't be a winning message with anyone else.
"Utopian shit" has made some of the richest right wing grifters in world history. :my-hero: :lord-bezos-amused: Why concede the field to them just to feel grounded and piously hopeless?
Yo you’re right that ideas like these are meaningless without first taking power. But it’s also fun to look at a picture of what a golf course could be if sufficient power was directed at changing it. I’m just like taking a shit and looking at pictures on my phone here. Organizing happens elsewhere.
Taking power without "ideas" will happen any day now :countdown:
That is a picture of me when I was writing that comment. How did you find me??