Whenever I see that I've received a reply here I get a little dopamine hit and I think "oh man, time to see what my fellow chapos think of what I've said!". This is even true when I've been arguing for veganism. Sure, there may be some disagreement, but it probably won't be super, dishearteningly nasty.
By contrast, every single time I see that orange envelope on reddit I tend to feel a little pang of anxiety and my first thought is always "oh fuck, what did I comment on again? Am I about to get some literal hate speech thrown my way?"
So yeah, thanks friends! Someday I may even ditch reddit for good because of you, and my life would be better for it.
Alright, the occasional vegan will yell at me for this (and they're welcome to, I'm wrong about this) but do everything except honey. Eggs and dairy are the real devil. Honey will come (or maybe it won't, and, eh, fuck it kind of).
honestly, i view beekeeping as one of the best things people can do to try and stave off the inevitable collapse of our entire ecosystem, so... imma just never agree to getting rid of honey. sorry not sorry
On the one hand, I see that, on the other, well, honeybees are an invasive species in many places. If you want to raise pollinators, I'm super down, but honeybees aren't always it.
are they an invasive species? in north america, yes. does the entire system rely on bees existing? also yes. the issue as i see it is that native species are fucked regardless of nonnative honey bees out competing them, so having some kind of pollination thats easy to convince people to participate in is the best way to go to avoid system collapse. would i say no to someone wanting to go above and beyond that? no.
And here we're getting into the absolute weeds of what is the best thing to do? And, well, I'm not a scientist, I don't know. Once I have a place of my own where I'm going to be for the long term I'm going to do my research and see what pollinators are correct and how I can help them exist and do their best for the surrounding ecosystem. But until then, all I can do is be a little skeptical about honeybees and that's what I'm going to do, because honeybees aren't always the answer.
But yeah, I don't know, native species are pretty fucked, and honestly, so is everything else. I learned today that yeasts are evolving to live at higher temperatures and that means that soon they're going to be able to survive at human body temperatures. And that means that soon humans will be dying because they became a yeast colony. What a world, we're all fucked.
yep pretty much. agreed on all counts. if someone told me the sky was literally falling because, fuck i dont know, green house gasses are now causing boil off of the upper atmosphere or something... i would not even be surprised, cause hell world gonna hell world.
What are non invasive pollinators you can raise en masse? Monarch butterflies? Plus, and I know, I know, but no honey out of the deal.
Ah shit, you want me to do actual research!?! Also, maybe more importantly, that will depend on where you are.
And sure, I get it, the lack of honey is less than ideal, but that's what sugar is for, you know?
Wait, are you being serious? Because if so I've got bad news for you friendo...
https://www.thoughtco.com/effect-of-sugar-on-the-environment-1204100
Oh all right, fair enough, I don't know everything. What's a good sweetener?
ive heard a few good things about this weird goop that comes out of insect butts. i think theyre calling it hunni? idk
Oh, so now the fact that honeybees are an invasive species doesn't matter? I thought you cared about doing the right thing.
i think you missed the part where i said them being invasive was secondary to the other issues at hand, like yknow, the inability for anything to be pollinated af all? also i was mostly just having a faff about the "whats a good sweetener" thing because theres no good answer, but okay my bad
Is whether a species is invasive really secondary? It seems kind of important to me. But if someone with scientific knowledge wants to tell me why invasive species aren't a huge issue, actually, I'm willing to listen.
And is there really no good answer for a reasonable sweetener? That sucks. Does anyone have a good sweetener? I'm super willing to stop buying sugar if there's a good alternative.
it absolutely is important. its just that there are other more important things. biodiversity is more than just "which kind of bee" and if an invasive honey bee keeps plants alive that otherwise would die off due to lack of pollination, well its not perfect but itll do.
as to sweeteners.. thats really just a "no ethical consumption under capitalism" thing. there are definitely "better" sources, but yeah, honestly a local apiary is probably one of the least harmful options.
You know, fair enough, I'm willing to buy that about the bees.
I worry about your second paragraph though, because I've seen a lot of people say "backyard eggs are fine, actually", and they just aren't. So I'm willing to believe that bees are a reasonable source of sweetener, but I need actual evidence, because my base assumption is "don't use animals against their will", and bees count. I'm willing to go against that and use honey, even if it's bad for the bees, but I need solid evidence that bees are significantly better for the environment than anything else.
well let me just own up real fast to my own bias here that i think human enslavement is inherently worse than the enslavement of a bee hive, because that bias is 100% why i can say a local apiary is the least harmful option. beyond that im not really going to try and answer the moral quandry of this for you. if you think taking honey from bees is MORE morally reprehensible than other supply chains, uh well.. i guess look into what happens on sugar plantations? cause it aint good.
Alright friendo, I'll be honest here, I don't really care if you eat honey or not. You do you. I'd still like to find an ethical sweetener, but if there isn't one, well, my clothes all get made by slaves in other parts of the world. Capitalism sucks, and being vegan is an easy way for me to feel a little less bad about my impact on the world.
alright pal, ill be honest here, i dont really care about having your approval or permission. you asked questions so i replied. and yeah, i get it, thats why i pointed out the whole ethical consumption thing being a pipe dream in the first place. best of luck looking for an ethical sweetner
Plus you know that's on top of all the bad karma from its historical connection to indentured slavery in the Caribbean and Pacific.