i love hexbear. libs posing as anarchists come running in yelling "tankie!" and the cool anarchists tell them to fuck off and touch grass.
Left-unity means touching grass. Only liberals and boomer idealists who have never succeeded in anything give a fuck about the importance of sectarianism.
there's a history of anarchists proudly failing and dying because of sectarianism. because authoritarianism and hierarchies are always bad to the sectarians. good luck not using hierarchies on a battlefield of any kind against an even semi modern army. OP is probably 18 years old and doesnt want to listen to his mom.
There's a strong objective trend of every single ideology failing to gain ground because of sectarianism. Even Lenin in what is to be done advocated against pluralism amongst comrades but in the writing advocated working w every bloc that had an interest against the tsar.
And particularly if the conditions within ur country are not imminently revolutionary there is absolutely no use for sectarianism as a principle that isn't in practice just telling people to fuck off for being actively detrimental.
You responded to people having positive opinions about Che Guevara with some "we need less authoritarianism, not more" style comments.
But what was Cuba to do with the US right next door? How would they be able to defend their revolution by immediately dissolving the state? Is the situation currently in Cuba ideal, and was it ideal in the past? Of course not, but they made certain decisions for a reason. Usually a protectionist one that was a product of its time. Look at how many times the CIA tried to kill Castro for example. How can the state instantly be dismantled when under such a siege?
Even then it's can easily be argued that your average Cuban experiences less "authoritarianism" post revolution, even with all the struggles in the country.
All I know is that Cuba, even when under seige, helped my country, South Africa, to fight apartheid, by sending their army to fight in the border wars. No one else did such. They may be a state at the end of the day, with the downsides all states have, but what they have achieved must be acknowledged and respected. A greater life expectancy than the US. Fighting injustice. An inclusive family code, making up for mistakes of the past.
From its earliest days, the Cuban Revolution has also been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of the vicious imperialist-orchestrated campaign to destroy the impressive gain made in the Cuban Revolution
- Nelson Mandela
I read the title assuming OP must mean that the images featured in the Dunk Tank, the stuff we put there to point and laugh at, was too much for OP to handle. And I could relate. Sometimes my blood is already boiled enough and I can't take reading any more.
But no. It turns out that OP is upset and malding because of the people here commenting on the threads in the Dunk Tank. :picard:
9 upbears
102 comments
still up 4 hours later
i'm goin in lads
someone that isnt a too-often-online sectarian among the left.
sectarianism is only something that a tankie cares about when we won’t bend the knee.
sectarianism is only something that a tankie cares about when we won’t bend the knee.
God yes I love the drama of you reddit liberals, so greasy thick like machine lube. Ominous period at the end and everything:farquaad-point:
tankie
Do you know the historical origins of the term, tankie, perchance?
It specifically was a slander against Khruschev for putting down a "revolution" in Hungary. That revolution was a CIA-backed "color revolution." where fascists were doing pogroms against Jews and Communists.
https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/VRz8Ef9DqP.png
Here is what ziq wrote: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
Very different takes. Seems ziq wouldn't and isn't agreeing with anti-sectarian policies.
This is a literal death threat. I’m sure the mods will take it down any moment.
non-sectarianism is when you make a tiny low traffic website and then pretend to be different users
good point, i guess that's why historically anarchists get crushed after the revolution.
all authoritarianism is bad, all hierarchies are bad. not sure how you plan to get anything accomplished being nice to capitalists but good luck! no hierarchies going to get you crushed by a semi modern army. so many anarchists want to skip the work and get right to utopia.
I mean they're right about that though, the institutions we build in struggle need to prefigure the institutions we want to have when we win.
I don't think prefigurative politics really makes sense, it's utopian almost by definition. A DotP is not prefigurative in any meaningful sense.
I mean I don't believe in the Marxist progression of history, it doesn't stand up with modern evidence. It's more of a practical matter: if you want something to be a certain way you've got to make it happen. You'll of course have to compromise at points, but don't start with the compromise
I forgot the comm this was in. Alright, the Paris Commune is an example of the manner in which prefigurative communism fails, as the communal society was not able to resist capitalist encirclement even remotely. It's the classic example of the problem with utopian projects.
The working class did not expect miracles from the Commune. They have no ready-made utopias to introduce par décret du peuple. They know that in order to work out their own emancipation, and along with it that higher form to which present society is irresistably tending by its own economical agencies, they will have to pass through long struggles, through a series of historic processes, transforming circumstances and men. They have no ideals to realize, but to set free the elements of the new society with which old collapsing bourgeois society itself is pregnant. In the full consciousness of their historic mission, and with the heroic resolve to act up to it, the working class can afford to smile at the coarse invective of the gentlemen’s gentlemen with pen and inkhorn, and at the didactic patronage of well-wishing bourgeois-doctrinaires, pouring forth their ignorant platitudes and sectarian crotchets in the oracular tone of scientific infallibility.
Marx literally said that the Paris Commune was a thorough example of the DotP, but go off king
Frankly it's this kind of thinking from folks like garbageshoot that makes me not want to identify with Marxists, it's really common, especially in places where communists dominate the left for Marxists to lose sight of the radical nature of Marxism and just seek to set up a really thorough social democratic state.
It's less common on this site but I run into it a lot irl and it's why I usually say I'm an anarchist or an autonomist Marxist when I think you need both, and feminism, and 4th world nationalism, and he black radical tradition.
A prefigurative politics is essential. In parliamentary proceedings you always get less than you aim for; even in a revolutionary uprising there are counter-revolutionary forces pushing back against you.
You can't just say "relax, man, the contradictions will resolve themselves". You actually have to go out and agitate for them! It is not utopian to say that on the line from (x1, y1) to (x2, y2), there is going to be at least one point where the slope is (y2-y1 / x2-x1). What is utopian is thinking that we can engage with the world within the "acceptable" window (range of slope) of what currently exists, and expect to get somewhere new with it. The human brain has limitations to what it can imagine, that are tied to what the individual's full range of experience is! The wider and more groundbreaking the range of experience, the more we'll be able to imagine.
Actually run lots of different tests to see how things work. *Expand your empirical basis as well as your theoretical basis. There you go, some real "scientific socialism".
Calling oneself "person's name"ist is offputting to me regardless of tendency.
Raddle wrecker started the thread, youre continuing it, as am i. Why are you on Hexbear if its filled with "tankieeeeez". you came in with an agenda. you keep saying "tankies" so much its meaningless. im supposed to debate an asshole on the internet in good faith? how about fuck off?
I keep accounts on a lot of other right wing extremist websites too. It lets me keep track of dangerous groups.
For instance, I was active on kiwifarms for years. That obviously doesn’t mean I support them.
oh youre so vigilant, the world thanks you for your brave service of being on the internet. o7
I’ve helped take a lot of authoritarians off of the internet and I will keep doing that. You all eventually self-doxx.
So I interpret this as a threat to dox hexbear users?
In the spectrum of political action you could take outside of organizations (which I would suggest, go into some collectives) you decide to dox people creating and participating safe spaces for trans people online (since you label their brand of political action as authoritarian or as tolerant of authoritarianism you see in pretty much any ML form).
This means you are purging leftist elements instead of trying to broaden or create bases of power or free spaces for anti hierarchical ideologies. Sounds pretty authoritarian to me.
It's also pretty laughable that id ever be fired from my job for being a socialist tbh. It only works against fascists because they are so reprehensible and incapable of working on a team
It is good that you got a good job, but I know plenty of places were people would be fired from for participating or even visiting hexbear regularly.
i mean yeah, if you have a conservative nutjob as your boss even just being a hillary supporter will get you fired. most big corporations though, they dont care as long as they make money. in fact most people know that im a socialist at work already :shrug-outta-hecks:
Don't reveal this information if you don't want to, but what job do you do that your employer wouldn't care you're socialist.
sorry not a good idea, just to avoid someone sending a bomb to my house or some shit lol :shrug-outta-hecks:
will say that its a large group and i make them so much money that itd be stupid for them to fire me even if i murdered someone in broad daylight
If you’re not doing anything wrong, then you don’t have anything to worry about.
It’s very telling how much this site loves talking about “purges”. Authoritarians aren’t leftist. Removing them from the internet is a type of antifascist action and I will never apologize for being antifascist.
If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have anything to worry about.
:the-pigs:
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/705002 Love to have the same rhetorical argument as based antifacist Joseph Goebbels :LIB::unity::frothingfash:
If you’re not doing anything wrong, then you don’t have anything to worry about.
Here's an easy one: closeted or passing people being outed and thereby being exposed to violence and harassment. Any communist in South Korea or other countries where it is illegal. Anyone even substantially adjacent to protest actions where a "frisky" PD has jurisdiction.
You are the absolute epitome of useful idiocy if you aren't just a fed -- which I don't say often but am forced to consider here with an anarchist who says US lawbreakers have a police raid coming.
If you’re not doing anything wrong, then you don’t have anything to worry about.
hahahah omfg, from the king of anti-authoritarians. youre a fucking liar and hypocrite who needs to brush up on some basic word definitions.
you admit to your own "purges" and claim to not be authoritarian. stop being an edgy teen.
Authoritarians aren’t leftist. Removing them from the internet is a type of antifascist action
So we all agree purging fascists is good. We just understand who fascists are and accept the idea that using force against them (i.e., purges) is good, while you don't have a fucking clue who fascists are and use some bullshit reasoning to say that your purges aren't really purges.
Lmao you're telling me you're an "anarchist" who volunteers as an internet cop?
Go outside. Find a hobby. Meet people in real life
I attend plenty of meetings offline. No-one who has ever done anything in real life would call me a cop.
Do they know about you doxing MLs and even anarchists over sectarian disagreement?
Look up what the three arrows represent. Legitimate antifascism is fighting against all of the arrows.
the symbol has been used in many different contexts by a variety of anti-fascist, social democratic and democratic socialist organisations
I'm asking what you, specifically, mean by "authoritarian"
You’re always telling people to read theory, so go read some of my work:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-eradicate-left-unity
Jesus Christ that is a wall of unhinged screeds against muh red fash tankies with absolutely no analysis, just "here's something the makes me mad, watch me react to it with terminally online vocabulary". Theory implies I'll learn something from critical analysis, not a glimpse into the mind of a madman. What you linked is some weird manifesto about how you'd rather die under the boot of capitalism than ever work with others who have similar ideas of what is important but different ideas on how to reach them. Shows how serious you are about accomplishing those goals as some comfortable global north netizen posting their way to freedom apparently.
No wonder you can't define what you mean by authoritarian, I don't think you know.
Once the transition to their new religion is complete, almost immediately, any ideas that conflict with the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Deng and Xi (never mind that they all contradict with each other) create desperate cognitive dissonance in their minds. So these pasty emotionally-stunted people angrily lash out at the unindoctrinated for being “radlibs”, “western chauvinists” and “imperialists” rather than risk parting with their new-found identity, community and belonging.
Once the majority in the newly minted left-unity community are comfortable joking about rounding up and killing “kulaks”, “anarchist bandits” or more recently “Uighur terrorists” and quoting Chinese state media to counter all the “imperialist western propaganda” from the mouths of the various minority groups being imprisoned and enslaved by the Chinese state (for their own good, they’ll insist), the shaming campaign begins.
Anyone in the space who breaks with the red fash party line is lambasted and ridiculed into submission. The remaining libertarians in the space now find themselves hopelessly outnumbered by scornful white settlers with daddy issues telling them they’re imperialist CIA stooges for thinking the Uighurs maybe shouldn’t be put in concentration camps or the Hong Kong and Tibetan people should get self-determination (watch tankies insist Tibetans who don’t want to be ruled by China are fascists and China is, in fact, saving them from themselves).
What part of this do you not understand?
It's honestly embarrassing that people like you are running around acting like you are any kind of authority on anarchism.
Most of it to be quite honest. Is it that we're just all hopelessly caught in an echo chamber unlike your enlightened self who is active on far right and far left forums to synthesize a truly correct take? Because if that's the case, I think you need to work on your presentation and sourcing, reading your writing is a slog ignoring the actual substance
p.s. still waiting to see what authoritarian means to you, was a simple question you have continued to avoid
The Tibetan theocratic aristocracy of old does not represent the peasantry they enslaved. That's like saying Emancipation was "freeing Southerners from themselves". There were slaves, slavers, and yeomen. It freed group one from group two.
Regarding genocide: https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/3182072
There are Tibetans and Muslims in Xinjiang that didn't want to be ruled by the Chinese. For Tibet, those monarchists (because that is what they were and still are) took their shot at counter-revolution and failed, and when they failed they ran away to complain in luxury in the West like every comprador class before them. They sought to use their own authority to retain power and failed because, honestly, the peasantry was pretty sick of their shit.
Within Xinjiang, the popular sentiment was with joining with China, because the alternative was becoming a completely land-locked country at the mercy of it's neighbors, far better to ally with the regional power. In the light of multiple devastating terrorist attacks that primarily killed Xinjiang Muslims, mandatory education for adults was installed, and the facilities to bring about that policy was made, alongside checkpoint systems across the region (a system that would be re-used in order to combat COVID a decade later). There were no genocides in Xinjiang, no U.S. style door-to-door raids and mass arbitrary imprisonment of military age males. You either showed up to school or you were sent to jail, so most showed up. And it's been effective because there have been no terrorist attacks since these policies were implemented, even as they have been wound down by the state.
If Hong Kong gets self-determination, it might surprise you to learn that the majority would probably vote to join China. We can guess that because the majority faction within the Hong-Kong government is the pro-CPC faction, unless you are meaning to imply that Hong-Kong might not be a bastion of freedom and democracy (which is where my money is honestly).
I think polling shows that most people in HK support the mainland anyway, though of course this is due to support from the poorer population and not the mostly wealthy ones who made up the HK rioters.
Um, no, it isn’t.
Truly, one the great theorists of our age :very-smart:
hahahahahahahahahaahah oh fuck, you think youre breaking the mold. anarchy can't progress with shit contributions like that. what a long and thought out rant you have against anti capitalists, :LIB:
I'mma let you know this. Your writing is shit. Get someone else to edit this and use normal people words. If you're trying to make theoretical contributions don't write like a redditor
I keep accounts on a lot of other right wing extremist websites too. It lets me keep track of dangerous groups.
Ron DeSantis and Jeff Bezos thank you for your vigilance. Cops and landlords too.
I'd love to hear who or what group you imagine we're a danger to that you consider in need of your protection.
they seem to genuinely think that everyone on this site wants to genocide trans people even though over half the admin and mod team are trans and so is much of the userbase 🙄
those evil fascist trans people, so scary! indistinguishable from a random chud in a swamp
They're not doing a very good job of "keeping track of us" then lmao
They really gotta step up their game. Gotta hustlegrind for some real actionable threats of violence to report to the FBI if they wanna get that sweet sweet wooden medal.
I was active on kiwifarms for years
least reactionary "anarchist" wrecker
Ah, active, not lurking. Doesn't surprise me that an anticommunist also shares other fascist views.
Your anarchism is just :us-foreign-policy: with radical aesthetic.
Yeah I'm an anarchist, yeah all my opinions align perfectly with the US State Department. Problem tankies??
gotta stir up some controversy and then screengrab the best responses for that sweet sweet :reddit-logo: karma
gotta write a 5 page essay on how the transgenders at hexbear were mean to them
here at HexBear, we think people who use the word tankie are morons. also why are 95% of new posts in that 196 section? looks fuckin awful.
That's pretty nice, they seem like a good fit for your website. As you can tell by the responses here, I don't think many hexbear users will be joining raddle. Just too different in culture and all that. But I think you'll be glad to hear that though, haha.
Wish you well in your endeavours over there.
Raddle has existed for years. You should remember that the authoritarians who founded Hexbear could have made a forum on our site, but they decided to chase power instead.
"you could have been on my site where im in charge but nooooo you didnt. you authoritarian!"
that about right? wouldnt making HexBear be the most anarchist thing to do?
extra thought, i assume you have full control of the website, making you the.....authoritarian?
Not only does ziq have full control of the website, they've got full control of most of the user accounts too (they're all sockpuppets)
Faking accounts and it's still dead as fuck. Sweet Lil anarchist Spez
I am an ancom. I was on Raddle before I was on Hexbear. From my experience the mods here are MUCH less "authoritarian" and more tolerant than what I found on Raddle. Not to mention just the friendly vibe here on hexbear is better.
We gave you a forum on raddle. One of our only rules was that you couldn’t have any authoritarians / marxists as mods. Your founder stopped responding after that.
We only did that after they kept trying to steal raddle from us and change site policy to allow supporting genocide.
was it supporting genocide, or debunking CIA propaganda? Hmmmm I wonder which one it was...
Supporting genocide. They denied the Chinese governments many human rights abuses, white washed the USSR’s ethnic cleansing, and Yugoslavia’s systemic mass killings of political dissidents.
genocide, ethnic cleansing, human rights abuses
in all seriousness, what is your source?
Mass killing Ustaŝe is good, and I'm tired of pretending it's not. :joker-troll:
wow so youre trying to control speech? that's pretty authoritarian of you. what happened to the marketplace of ideas? maybe being an absolutist can make one look like a fucking hypocrite.
I challenge you to read literally any marxist literature ever. Maybe start here since you can't stop conflating authoritarianism with Marxism: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
If the stuff about you being an :epstein: type is true, you must love having all those highschool kids on your site.
antifacism is when you outlaw all the left wing parties in your country and take credit for the US blowing up a gas pipeline leading to europe
Wait, the entire COUNTRY of Russia infiltrated these parties? That's wild, I can't believe I didn't hear more stories about the first landmass to join a political party.
Critical support for the entire country of Russia literally moving its landmass into office
everything is the Russians lol. you really are a liberal arent you? your psyop needs work,
Damn, crazy to think they would join a party that isn't advocating for getting rid of Russian language schooling in areas that are majority ethnic Russia, or supporting literal Nazis running around and killing people who are in labor unions. Really fucking crazy, that.
Not allowed to post :PIGPOOPBALLS: on raddle. And this guy has the gall to call us authoritarian. You wouldn't know freedom if it showed up in your :post-hog:
I don’t owe anyone a reply. I’m not coming back here for a while, and I hope other anarchists join me on leaving this site to go to raddle.me.
This thread alone has had more activity than raddle has seen in months
I’m not coming back here for a while
/proceeds to make 15 more comments.
You mean the site that saw a bunch of traffic from the initial CTH migration, only to have you ban all but ten other posters (possibly your alts)?
Reaching out to invite people you'll just boot in a few weeks anyway is indistinguishable from intentional wrecking. Take a minute to think it over.
:countdown:
When someone changes a question from why they "should" to why they "can", they concede the former point.
I met that dude at an anarchist bookfair, he was handing out zines on "green nihilism" and had incredibly specific and incredibly idiosyncratic standards for what was and wasn't anarchy.
You're probably looking for raddle.me; this is a left unity site, so you gotta be friendly with the commies. Raddle is strictly anarchist, though not strictly left-anarchist as far as I can tell.
lol
https://raddle.me/f/Anarchism/157984/i-got-into-an-argument-with-tankies-and-i-m-stumped
You can't be serious, that's debate streamer level stuff.
Oh god you're right lol.
Check out The Black Book of Communism, a classic work of antifascism available from Harvard University Press
lol look at the fucking Makhnovists. You'll beat Stalin one day! Just keep at writing your shitty posts from exile and alienating the more useful leftists around you. Just one more article and you might see victory!
My view of Makhnov got much more complicated once I looked into the facts.
For example forcing people with weapons to fight in an army was something he organized. Is that anarchist? If the army is needed in a fight against white or Nazi terror it sure is legitimate and that was one of the reasons MLs did it in the early years of the Soviet Union, too.
There's a story I always talk about that I think is the perfect encapsulation of his being a loser:
In June 1926, during a meal with Alexander Berkman and May Picqueray in a Russian restaurant, Makhno met with the Ukrainian Jewish anarchist Sholem Schwarzbard, who went pale upon seeing the [fascist] Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura walk into the room. Schwarzbard immediately informed the Batko of his intentions to assassinate Petliura, in revenge for the pogroms carried out in the Ukrainian People's Republic, during which some of his family members had been killed. Makhno attempted to dissuade him but the deed was carried out anyway, with Schwarzbard's subsequent trial bringing to light a trove of documentary evidence on the pogroms in Ukraine, exonerating the assassin.
he was kinda cool in some ways but when things got tough his project too quickly resorted to some level of chaotic vanguardism and violence to pull through and manage stuff. Scale that up to the complexity and issues the USSR project had to deal with and you can quikly see he was far from a "better alternative than the bolsheviks that they crushed"
And here I was just trying to aid someone. Not mutually, unfortunately.
Is this a joke? They are not.
Unless you mean libertarian socialists.
I don't see how capitalist libertarians can be anarchists in any way, shape or form.
"Libertarian" really did mean anarchist originally, it was straight up a synonym. Being a self-described anarchist was outlawed in France and so they adopted the term Libertarian such that they could still operate and have influence with the public. But like so many other cool leftist things, the right stole the term and fooled everyone into thinking it was theirs. Now we have to differentiate between libertarian socialists and american "libertarians" all because fascists are unoriginal and continuously undermine the left by cooption.
I have no idea if that's what ziq means, but if they allow the modern american form of "libertarians" on their site at all, then fuck them all the more, their site is even less leftist than I realized.
No it's a straight up libertarian subforum from what I can tell
https://raddle.me/f/Libertarian/115911/libertarian-forum-purpose
:visible-disgust:
I don't know why I sometimes try not to assume the worst.
To be fair to the raddle userbase it's pretty inactive, so I think most of them are not libertarians lol.
Lol so that place is cool but pro-Cuba posts are evil
Absolutely useless forum, just wasted potential
Lol Reddit “anarchists” are just spicy liberals that like appropriating the radical aesthetic example #583739
Many are well-intentioned libs who are smart enough to see the problems with capitalism, but too lazy to seriously engage with anti-capitalist theory (of any school) and too credulous to question the State Department line on other countries. There's potential, but it's a textbook example of a little education being a dangerous thing.
I love that the anarchists we have here actually read what prior anti-capitalist theorists have to say and have put together that maybe the country most open to anti-capitalist criticism can't be trusted to give you accurate information about its designated enemies.
If you consider yourself an antifascist anarchist, at some point you have to contend with right-libertarianism's explicit synthesis of "small government" politics with nationalist Christian supremacy. Otherwise "fascism" is just a word you use for people you have beef with online.
lol fuck that site and so many of its posts are fucking trash
So everything that disagrees with genocidal regimes are nazi’s now? Tankies gonna tank I guess
What are the genocidal regimes ur referring to
you know it's mostly USSR and China. Stalin made the rain stop, and also caused all those other famines before the Soviet Union existed. and then Stalin oppressed the ruling class. so mean! effective, but too mean for the "anarchist" OP.
read Engels "On Authority", but i wish you well on your journey to get the capitalists to join hands with us in harmony.
On authority doesn't say anything anarchists don't already know. Read Malatesta
Anarchy and Violence affirms the need for violent revolution while specifying what makes an anarchist approach to it different.
