She wanted me to make this post, because she is not sure if she is just "weird" or if she can get diagnosed with ADHD and/or autism and make her life a bit easier. The symptoms that bother her the most are the following:
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Sometimes walks away from uninteresting conversations without realizing (with familiar people) with strangers, feels like being held hostage.
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Intense focus to the point of forgetting to eat, drink water and neglecting to go to the toilet.
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Periods of low mood and anhedonia vs periods of intense obsession(?) and excitement with some activity (specific game or game genre, desktop customization).
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Diagnosed with dysthymia and BPD traits (due to self-harm).
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Suicidal thoughts since 14 yo but never made an attempt.
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Low self esteem.
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Persistent interests for many years in which she has made great contributions.
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Does not like to go out much and feels dirty after going out.
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Very annoyed by insects, afraid of bees and wasps.
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She is a perfectionist.
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In kindergarten, she would not go out for recess if she was still in the middle of doing something (finishing a drawing).
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When learning how to do something, she liked repeating the process e.g. making boxes out of paper, drawing the same image.
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Always sits with her knees close to her chest.
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Occasionally rocks back and forth or from side to side sometimes repeats certain sounds / jingles / song melodies.
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She thinks in images instead of words, except when having depression-related thoughts (e.g. "I am useless"), or positive thoughts ("I can do this") or when daydreaming scenes with dialogue.
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Because of this, speaking is hard for her as she has to translate the images to words.
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Performs great at work but gets burned out quickly.
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Is bad at socializing, and has cut contact with her old friends and does not want to go back to having friends
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Zones out of conversations.
Can't diagnose anyone, know autism and ADHD and auDHD pretty well. I'll give you my read on what the traits seem to fit:
- Sometimes walks away from uninteresting conversations without realizing (with familiar people) with strangers, feels like being held hostage.
This is something that is common for autistic people. ADHDers may do it too but I'd say it's much less common in adults.
- Intense focus to the point of forgetting to eat, drink water and neglecting to go to the toilet.
ADHD or autistic. Also depends on what it is but it leans pretty autistic.
- Periods of low mood and anhedonia vs periods of intense obsession(?) and excitement with some activity (specific game or game genre, desktop customization).
Either, could be other things like a mood disorder too
- Diagnosed with dysthymia and BPD traits (due to self-harm).
Either or none
- Suicidal thoughts since 14 yo but never made an attempt.
Either or none
- Low self esteem.
Either or none
- Persistent interests for many years in which she has made great contributions.
Autistic
- Does not like to go out much and feels dirty after going out.
Autistic
- Very annoyed by insects, afraid of bees and wasps.
Either or none
- She is a perfectionist.
Either or none
- In kindergarten, she would not go out for recess if she was still in the middle of doing something (finishing a drawing).
Autistic
- When learning how to do something, she liked repeating the process e.g. making boxes out of paper, drawing the same image.
Autistic
- Always sits with her knees close to her chest.
Either, leans autistic
- Occasionally rocks back and forth or from side to side sometimes
Autistic
- Repeats certain sounds / jingles / song melodies.
Either, leans autistic
- She thinks in images instead of words, except when having depression-related thoughts (e.g. "I am useless"), or positive thoughts ("I can do this")
Either or none
- or when daydreaming scenes with dialogue
Leans autistic
- Because of this, speaking is hard for her as she has to translate the images to words.
Very autistic
- Performs great at work but gets burned out quickly.
Either, leans autistic
- Is bad at socializing, and has cut contact with her old friends and does not want to go back to having friends
Very autistic
- Zones out of conversations.
Either, leans ADHD
I wouldn't rule out other things. There's a lot in there that really indicates autism to me. If someone came to me and asked me what I thought based on these categories I'd encourage them to explore autism as a likely candidate.
ADHD is a possibility. AuDHD is another, although that's more complex, harder to diagnose and imo less understood.
It's also worth considering whether it's a combination of, say, ADHD and a mood disorder or something like that. I'd keep an open mind tbh.
I would encourage her to do the RAADS-R test here (down at the bottom of the page under the discussion) and the ADHD screening test too.
The ADHD screening test is less good. I can elaborate on this if anyone is interested. It's also not great at identifying auDHD and I can elaborate on this too.
If she feels comfortable to post her results I can give you my take on them.
Also an autism diagnosis can be pretty expensive and the waitlists are often extremely long. For adults I tend to advise them against seeking a formal diagnosis, and especially against paying for the full ADOS-2, because often this doesn't really provide much benefit except in countries where it may give the person access to social security benefits or similar. It also depends on how much autism affects the individual's life - if a person is working or studying and managing that okay and things are reasonable, there's probably not a whole lot of use in an autism diagnosis. If someone is really struggling with these things or isn't capable of them then an autism diagnosis may be of much more use. Partly this is an ethical position - there are often people who are desperate to get access to an autism diagnosis because they really need the support and, while I encourage anyone to get themselves screened for things that they think they might have, if there's no clear material benefit to you getting an autism diagnosis (especially as an adult) then I'd encourage thinking about it in a triage sort of way; an ADOS-2 is a lot like an exam in the sense that it assess an individual's performance in the examination setting. But not necessarily in the real world. Often insight into one's experience tends to come from engaging with autistic peers and doing self-directed learning on autism.
ADHD diagnoses, on the other hand, provide access to a lot of medications that can make managing the condition a whole lot better and so if someone was coming up high on the likelihood of both autism and ADHD then I'd strongly encourage focusing resources on an ADHD diagnosis over an autism diagnosis. Also note that for an auDHDer, the accomodations that you can get in the workplace or with study are probably about the same as for someone with an autism diagnosis so in that respect, if you've got an ADHD diagnosis you probably won't get much more with an autism diagnosis as well.
Obviously this is general advice. I'm also not a lawyer so I cannot tell you what your specific country's laws are with regards to disability access and inclusion, and it's gonna vary so I'd encourage anyone to do their research.
Hmm I just took the RAADS-R test after reading this comment (already have an ADHD diagnosis) and scored a 68:
- Language subtotal: 2
- Social relatedness subtotal: 36
- Sensory/motor subtotal: 11
- Circumscribed interests subtotal: 19
On some of these questions, like when they use words like "normal" I found myself wondering "how do they define normal?" The "interests" part stood out to me too, because its always been true that if you get me on a topic it can be hard to stop. I also feel way less awkward when I'm talking with someone about a shared interest. Like "finally I can get all this information out of me." I also feel compelled to provide all the context in order to tell what might be a simple story.
🤷♂️ its interesting, giving me something to think about.
On some of these questions, like when they use words like "normal" I found myself wondering "how do they define normal?"
Yeah, that's definitely a question that comes up in these sorts of screening tests.
It's also limited because it's self-assessment and that can be inherently flawed because the question might be worded in such a way that it prompts you to assess how well you perform than necessarily assessing how much difficulty it causes you or what you are like when you aren't engaging in the methods you have developed to compensate for or adapt to what you're like at your baseline. For a high masking autistic person, they might be quite disconnected from what their baseline is because they are so used to always being high masking that this obscures their baseline from themselves.
Without knowing more, your results are in an interesting place - they are high for an allistic person and low for an autistic person. This might be reflective of your ADHD, although if I was expecting your results to be reflective of ADHD as the reason for why you scored highly I'd anticipate a skew with higher numbers in the sensorimotor category and a lower score in the circumscribed interest category than you have.
Without knowing how you answered each social relatedness question, I'd venture a guess that your score is significantly higher than the typical allistic score because ADHD/society and societal expectations makes social relatedness quite difficult for a lot of ADHDers.
If we used ADHD to explain the SR score and the SM score, for argument's sake, we're left with an interesting split with your language score being expected for an allistic person, if not a little low for an ADHD perhaps, and a CI score which is high for an allistic person and higher again than I'd expect for an ADHDer.
The questions this leaves me with are:
Is your ADHD helping you to compensate in the language domain, or perhaps is it making it more difficult for you to make an accurate assessment of your function/level of difficulty in this domain?
Is your CI score reflective of ADHD traits? I'm going to grossly stereotype here for the sake of contrast but if your CI is such because you love model trains then that would make me want to investigate more but on the other hand if it was this way because you love something like paintball or MMA then that would probably be more in line with what I'd expect for an ADHDer. (Of course everyone is different and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that some autistic people adore MMA or paintball and some ADHDers adore model trains, but I'm sure you get what driving at here.)
The other things that would be informative would be knowing your ADHD type based on how you perceive yourself today as well as how you score on the ADHD screening test (although as people reach adulthood they tend to mellow out on the hyperactivity and end up drifting into the combined-type or becoming more towards the inattentive type just because of how things work) and whether you were socialised as a boy or a girl when you were a child.
It's definitely interesting and your results are pretty inconclusive tbh. You might find that other autism screening tests that you can find on that site provide you with more clarity on the matter.
Thanks for taking the time to write all this! Very interesting perspective. When I was tested for ADHD I was never really tested in a way that determined what kind of "subtype" I might have, but it's definitely a combination of both inattentive and hyperactive at this point in my life.
I never have an issue talking to people, I can make small talk, but when meeting new people for the first time I generally stay quiet for some time. I have this tendency now (and when I was young) to "ramble" lacking a better word. In my social circles when I was younger, my friends group latched on to calling it a "RedWizard Story" and would regularly interject with "Uh oh, here comes another RedWizard Story". That hasn't changed as I've aged. Regularly I have to "get to the point", but I've become much more aware of when I've entered this mode and can find off-ramps that terminate to the point. I won't lie though, I always feel cut off, or like slighted when this happens because I'm always "sure" everything I was saying was relevant (it's clear to me now that's not always the case from the listeners' perspective). So part of staying quiet initially is me waiting for my opportunity to "cut in", but also not wanting to dominate the conversation if I happen to get on a topic I'm particularly interested in.
Those topics are like coiled springs in my mind. If I find out you have played D&D before, for example, I have an ocean of thoughts about it that range from practical to philosophical. Engaging with me on that topic is like pulling loose the cotter pin on the spring and releasing a payload of D&D enthusiasm that might not be shared with the person I'm talking to. I've learned over time to temper that enthusiasm with some leading questions to try and gage what level of interest the person has in the topic and navigate from there.
I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily anxious about engaging in casual conversation. Likewise, I don't get stressed about the prospects of socializing. Sometimes I feel a little off kilter if I have to make pleasantry with people I'm assisting at work, the kind of idle chatter you engage in to fill the void while you are working towards getting them what they need. Especially if I'm not super familiar with the person.
Maybe what I'm describing here is masking, but frankly, I have no idea how to identify if I am masking, or if I'm just doing what people normally do in regular conversation. Which I think leads back to your initial point of:
It's also limited because it's self-assessment and that can be inherently flawed because the question might be worded in such a way that it prompts you to assess how well you perform than necessarily assessing how much difficulty it causes you or what you are like when you aren't engaging in the methods you have developed to compensate for or adapt to what you're like at your baseline.
If I find some time today, I'll look at some of the other tests on that site.
That's a very interesting and relatable description of socialising.
It's really tricky to give you a good read on this because it really feels like it could be autism or both or just ADHD. The classic ADHD conversation is a constant barrage of tangents and sometimes even these random abrupt topic shifts. The classic unmasked autistic conversation is typically more monologue-style infodumping and an excessive amount of specificity and "irrelevant" detail.
You tend to see my more autistic traits coming out in my posts and comments here - even just now "posts and comments" is unnecessarily specific. I could have said "in me here" and it probably would have been sufficient. I also brevity is not my strong suit unless I really strive for it consciously.
With that being said there's also some degree of ADHD traits visible - I often overlook simple spelling mistakes and I can kinda bounce from one topic to another, often tangential ones, without really gliding gracefully between them but it's less obvious and looking at how someone posts is more like the MBTI than it is a clinical assessment.
When it comes to idle chit chat, an autistic person tends to find it perplexing and pointless, and they'll struggle with reciprocating and knowing what is deemed appropriate to talk about and what isn't. An ADHDer tends to find it either frustrating (because they're trying to focus on something else, they are struggling to focus on the boring vapid nonsense, or because they feel impatient and they want to talk about something interesting or they are struggling to wait until the other person has finished their sentence before jumping in) or they really enjoy having someone new to engage with.
It's worth noting that ADHDers definitely engage in masking. It's a bit different because an ADHDer doesn't face the same difficulties with communication so usually ADHD masking is about trying to mellow out the inattentiveness or the impulsiveness, trying to stay on track, trying not to interrupt, trying to be observant of what's being communicated etc. whereas an autistic person masking is trying to consciously read and interpret all of these little signs and indicators to make sense of them while trying to give the right ones to the other person, so it's more like playing a card game that you have only just learned the rules of where you're constantly trying to remember them all while making the right play as the game unfolds. It can look very similar, especially outwardly, but I think the internal experience is different.
AuDHD though. It's really kinda hard to describe what communication is like an an auDHDer and I suspect it depends on what traits are more predominat, how severe the ADHD is and if it's appropriately medicated etc.
When it comes to idle chit chat, an autistic person tends to find it perplexing and pointless, and they'll struggle with reciprocating and knowing what is deemed appropriate to talk about and what isn't. An ADHDer tends to find it either frustrating (because they're trying to focus on something else, they are struggling to focus on the boring vapid nonsense, or because they feel impatient and they want to talk about something interesting or they are struggling to wait until the other person has finished their sentence before jumping in) or they really enjoy having someone new to engage with.
This is my experience for sure. In the moments when I'm having a very hard time with it (usually right after work) I have to close my eyes and cross my arms to really focus on a conversation. Too many times, I've been trying to listen to my SO tell me about her day, and even though I really do want to hear about it, I can feel the invisible hand turning my thoughts and attention away. Medication helps with that a lot. That sense of "newness" is also very real. Talking to new people for me can be a little daunting, but once I find some kind of common ground or interest, it's really difficult to shut me up. I've always been told I'm very personable, and I can be very extroverted in the right settings, but there is this kind of ADHD ennui that sets in when things become too familiar, which really sucks. My life has been defined by my "obsessions", those transient hobbies or projects that ADHD tends to latch onto, and when I encounter people who are not like that, who have nothing they are currently OBSESSED with, I can feel my brain just click off. Just as much as I absolutely CRAVE info-dumping on someone or someone to have an enthusiastic back and forth with, I also desire to be the target of that kind of enthusiasm. I can be incredibly energized by other people's unbridled enthusiasm for something, and their willingness to bless me with that torrent of enthusiasm. I know from experience, though, that most neurotypical people do not feel being that target is a blessing. When I'm talking to someone I'm really comfortable with, those tendencies, to interrupt or monolog, grow stronger, probably because I assume I can just let the spring loose and not be judged for it.
It's worth noting that ADHDers definitely engage in masking.
This is a realization that I'm only having as a result of this conversation. I picked up "Unmasking Autism" and read the Introduction and a good portion of the first chapter. Some things described in the book resonated with me (samefoods for example), while others didn't (not understanding social queues or norms). Even in what I've read so far, it's really opened my eyes to just how much work I do to "pass", and how much of myself I really do suppress for the sake of others.
It's a bit different because an ADHDer doesn't face the same difficulties with communication so usually ADHD masking is about trying to mellow out the inattentiveness or the impulsiveness, trying to stay on track, trying not to interrupt, trying to be observant of what's being communicated etc.
This aligns totally with my day-to-day experience.
whereas an autistic person masking is trying to consciously read and interpret all of these little signs and indicators to make sense of them while trying to give the right ones to the other person, so it's more like playing a card game that you have only just learned the rules of where you're constantly trying to remember them all while making the right play as the game unfolds.
This does not. Which I think makes sense.
I do think I have a pretty intense case of ADHD, though. Without medication, it takes only a matter of a week or so before I start to come apart at the seams. I had a lap in medication recently, and it was only like 10 days, but by the 10th day I was a totally irritable mess. I'm also realizing as a result of this conversation that I don't have a lot of other neurodivergent people around me that I can actively talk about these things with, or at least, not ones who think about these experiences like this. So I definitely appreciate your willingness to engage with me here, it's very helpful!
I would suggest reading "Unmasking Autism" by Dr. Devon Price and "More Attention, Less Deficit" by Dr. Ari Tuckman. And if you have access, seek a professional opinion as well. At least the ADHD is cheap and quick to diagnose. Watch the channel "How to ADHD" to get some basic stuff, and take everything with a grain of salt and not proof that she has something. We're a bunch of weirdos on the Internet, not doctors.
Either is possible but above all else these are 100% indications of trauma. Attention regulation issues, mood regulation issues, self-identity regulation issues, relationship regulation issues, theres a good chance she probably has a lot of strange somatic bodily issues as well. Perfectionism is also another good indication.
I could be entirely wrong, but i think she may be surprised by how many of these issues are in one sense or another remediated by going to therapy for trauma!
Diagnosed with dysthymia and BPD traits (due to self-harm).
I know I'm not a doctor, and this is only one sentence, but does this seem like a wierd diagnosis to anyone else? I know dysthymia has been replaced with "persistent depressive disorder" but it's the "bpd traits" that seem odd to me (maybe because the diagnosis is older, and it would also be called something else now?). Like, how can a mental illness have personality disorder traits as a modifier, those are (afaik) separate? And sh isn't really bpd traits, that's something that could just be because of depression? Can someone maybe explain what that means?
Obviously not questioning her diagnosis or anything, I just don't understand. I know this comment is too long but trying to explain myself is hard here >.<
A lot of women with early life/chronic trauma get told they have borderline even if they don't fully fit the criteria. It's a systemic misogyny thing. I wonder if that is what is going on here?
It is common for people with ADHD and/or autism to develop CPTSD as a result of the way we are treated by others and by the world's inaccessibility. CPTSD absolutely looks like chronic depression with some of the traits of borderline personality disorder. It might be worth considering because there are different treatment options for CPTSD that could be more effective.
I was gonna say the misogyny bit too. From what I've read up on, girls are often under and misdiagnosed due to society's misguided notions of "girl autism" vs "boy autism" and girls often get misdiagnosed with BPD.
Also not a professional but I've seen more then maybe a dozen or 2 similar stories in the last 6 months of being in autism communities on reddit.
Are we dating?!? 😂
jk, of course. I'm AuDHD , and I relate to pretty much all of this. Especially:
- thinks in images instead of words
- speaking is hard for her as she has to translate the images to words
all day, every day! Not just images, but sensory impressions too.
But also:
- Suicidal thoughts since 14 yo but never made an attempt.
- Low self-esteem
yeah 😞
- Intense focus to the point of forgetting to eat, drink water and neglecting to go to the toilet.
- Periods of low mood and anhedonia vs periods of intense obsession(?) and excitement
Too busy and excited to want to go pee! Too sad and miserable to get up to pee. 😂🤦 There's a lot of urgent dashing.
- Does not like to go out much
- annoyed by insects, afraid of bees and wasps.
oh yes, these too - I also now have PTSD after the realization of a life-long fear a couple years ago: getting attacked by ground-nesting hornets
- Sometimes walks away from uninteresting conversations without realizing (with familiar people) with strangers, feels like being held hostage.
- Occasionally rocks back and forth or from side to side sometimes repeats certain sounds / jingles / song melodies
- Is bad at socializing, and has cut contact with her old friends and does not want to go back to having friends
- Zones out of conversations.
ding ding ding ding
All I know is that relate to nearly all of that and I have ADHD
Thanks for your answers everyone, we read them all. She considers autism a more serious possibility than before she read them so they helped
Not a diagnosis, but you're posting this from lemmygrad to hexbear. It's not unlikely
