There's been discussion of federation with Lemmygrad. I think this is probably a good call. I just want to know how the anti-sectarian rule would be enforced. Like, it someone makes an anti-anarchist post on lemmygrad.ml and it shows up on hexbear.net, would the moderators hide the comment on our end but not on Lemmygrad? Would repeat offenders be banned from hexbear.net even though they made the comment on a different iteration?
Same for one of the bigger anarchist instances like lemmy.blahaj.zone which has good leftist and trans content but also has regular struggle sessions about "tankies." It seems like federation with then would be a boon for both sites, but moderating the left unity rule would be a nightmare.
Also, another thought: would downbears from other instances carry over here?
I really wanna know the answer to the downbears. For such an insignificant back-end change, I think removing them did a lot to shift site culture for the better.
I believe the way it works is that on lemmygrad if this comment got 400 downvotes it would show up at (time of writing) -395, but anyone viewing from hexbear would still see +5
I think removing them did a lot to shift site culture for the better.
What is better about it, though?
They didn't really help filter out low-effort content and we're mostly used as an "I disagree" button. Removing them meant it took a little bit of effort to dogpile someone and the site seemed much friendly after they were removed.
Of course, it means we can no longer down vote wreckers and trolls to hide their comments, but the mods usually ban them pretty fast anyways (
to our mods )They didn't really help filter out low-effort content and we're mostly used as an "I disagree" button.
Okay, but I want an "I disagree" button.
Removing them meant it took a little bit of effort to dogpile someone and the site seemed much friendly after they were removed.
It doesn't really stop that though, it just turns anonymous dislikes into a flood of mad inbox replies.
Downvotes tell you that someone doesn't like your post or comment, but tell you nothing about why. Can't really see them doing anything but making the site feels more hostile.
I don't get people's grips about Lemmygrad. We outnumber them in users and in posting activity. There's little to fear about Hexbear being Lemmygradized. Our megathread is probably as active as their entire instance and we have two megathreads on top of the rest of the site. We're also, shall we say, far more aggressive about airing out our grievances against our online opponents.
If anything, it's the opposite. They have to fear Lemmygrad being steamrolled by Hexbear users. There's going to be a learning curve because no one would want to federate with us if we're completely aggro on random users even if they completely deserve it lmao
We're apparently 10% of the entire lemmy usercount, odds are every instance should be afraid of us federating with them
There's going to be a learning curve because no one would want to federate with us if we're completely aggro on random users even if they completely deserve it lmao
Nobody is gonna wanna federate with me and you know what that's okay
Copied my comment from another thread: We should actually do this.
We should bring back chapo.chat, but with a twist:
- hexbear.net federates with no one except for chapo.chat
- chapo.chat federates with the entire outside world for agitation purposes.
I kind of like this, have a federated version and a non-federated version and folks pick their experience.
I'd pitch three version, an insular hexbear.net, a left wing only federated one, and an all-of-lemmy version with relaxed moderation of other instances
Banger. The world facing one should be chapo.chat though, let the name continue to live in infamy
100% agreement. It lives on as a spectre haunting the internet
Make it so when you click on the hexbear icon in the top left it puts on the ideology sunglasses
and you can see the federated content.so basically a Lemmy where we don't ever defend AES. because that is all it takes to be TANKIE.
I don't know if I've seen a fediverse site try this before. Kinda want to see how well it'd work now.
This sounds like more work for the dev team and it will no doubt push actual federatin' further out, but I do really like this idea
Blahaj zone is regrettably a shithole about "tankie" hysteria. Comparing it to lemmygrad is unfair to lemmygrad.
Seriously "are the tankies in the room with you right now?" Energy. We have to be one of the smalest left of thatcher cliques in politics right now.
which has good leftist and trans content but also has regular struggle sessions about "tankies."
So they're a bunch of
'sYeah, saying they have "good leftist content" when they spew bile on nearly any AES is being overly generous.
We've federated Lemmygrad with other instances for over 3 years now, and essentially our way to go about it is to only moderate what happens on our instance or from one of our user.
If hexbear removes a post that's on lemmygrad for example, it will only be removed for Hexbear. The post will still remain up on lemmygrad and will still federate with other instances.
If you ban someone from lemmygrad on hexbear, they will only be banned for hexbear and cannot interact on your instance anymore.
But the way reports are made is they're sent to every relevant mod/admin. If someone from Lemmy world posts on lemmy ml, and a lemmygradian makes the report, all three admin teams will receive it. We just take a second to see which instance the report is made on, and which instance the reported user is from, and then mark it as solved because we don't have the inclination to moderate what happens on other instances. We figure it's the "price" of federation, if you hop on to All then you're gonna see libreddit stuff.
It's a system that works for us, it might not be perfect but so far we haven't received any complaints.
if you hop on to All then you're gonna see libreddit stuff
suggest making the default user settings "Subscribed". would also help with people accidentally breaking sub rules
But the way reports are made is they're sent to every relevant mod/admin. If someone from Lemmy world posts on lemmy ml, and a lemmygradian makes the report, all three admin teams will receive it.
The reporters admins/mods can't actually moderate though right?
Like some beehawite reporting a Hexbear post doesn't let beehawite mess with our stuff right?
They can remove the post, but it would only remove it for people browsing from beehaw. Every other instance would still see the post.
As a side note, there is lots of (anecdotal) talk about how Lemmygrad was far less insufferable and far more chill and well-read before the GenZedong reddit influx a year ago, and from my experience their shittiest whiny users are a small, screaming minority of them.
My point being, for those user to get banned by us, an instance with an obviously substantial M-L userbase (among other socialist and anarchist ideologies), is a slap in the face I really want to see.
Why would you call yourself an ML unless you've well, read M and L? I feel like you've got to earn the right to be an ornery asshole.
I feel like you've got to earn the right to be an ornery asshole.
big bill haywood might've had something to say about that, and a lot of maoist outreach was to illiterate peasantry but as for us jackasses on the internet... not being able to focus on long-form reading or find good audiobooks consistently is why i don't identify as any tendency
Everyone I hate hates them so they must have done something right/.
The way i see the discussion going on blahaj.zone makes me think they'll probably make the decision to block grad and hexbear before hexbear has to make any decisions.
Rn they've been monitoring lemmygrad users but letting them hang out and given the moderation culture I don't see that changing
That's better than I expected tbh, but I expect beehaw and sopuli to press them to block lemmygrad eventually. Those two are really salty about not being able to impose a quarantine on "tankies".
Beehaw blocked hexbear before we could even federate lmao
Show
Wait Beehaw is federated with a trans anarchist lemmy but they're afraid of us? I do not understand libs sometimes.
I mean of two groups, one of which vociferously disavows Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, Che etc and one of which says actually those guys were great, libs are always going to be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the first group.
I read someone on there say it's because we "deny certain genocides".
That's exactly what the default is on other Lemmy instances that have federation if you go take a peek
This is why we are carefully considering federation because it would ultimatly compromise the current vibe of the site
So much 100% THIS - there's already stormfront and so many other websites that exist if I really wanted to debate baby brained libs every day.
This one is very special. I'm sure as someone who has already been hung up on Lemmy with your ban and all that - it's probably not considered polite for you to comment on such things but you probably see the problem better than many.
If this place turns into some lib-ridden place where I have to scroll past 6000 Slava Ukraini posts and illegal pictures of Tianenmen Square it will be a very sad day.
You won't see that content on Lemmygrad unless you subscribe to spaces on lemmygrad that produce it, or unless you use Lemmy's equivalent of /r/all which shows you everything in the federation regardless of the comms you are subscribed to.
You've got to think of the Federation as the big Reddit network of communities. You don't see the communities unless you subscribe to them or go looking in feeds where all of their content is visible at once though.
Right, but we'll still be commenting in each other's communities. Most sectarianism doesn't happen at the post level.
Ah I see. Well the way I see it is you should have to observe the rules of the federated-site (and comm) when participating in their comms, and they should do the same vice versa.
I would expect us to ban anyone that comes here and spews sectarianism. But I would not expect us to ban a Hexbear if the sectarian posting they do is not actually on Hexbear but instead in a lemmygrad comm.
This seems like good-practice for avoiding the site getting defederated too. If Hexbears go elsewhere and just break the rules of everywhere they go then the reputation will eventually be that Hexbear are a nuisance that do not care about the rules of any space they go into and that will result in defederation. This will take some time for Hexbear users to get used to though and I suspect there will be initial pains that look quite similar to major drama explosions that happened here for
except cross-federation.There are also some problems in my opinion with Lemmy looking the same too much. Comms need banners and sidebar images so that users can FEEL that they are in a different space and adjust their behaviour accordingly. Right now if everything looks the same everywhere you go people's default behaviour will be whatever they have already gotten, but the default behaviour of a Hexbear isn't going to go down well in a lot of liberal spaces. If it actually felt like you were in a different space you would be more likely to adjust behaviour.
Yeah I need a big sign that tells me. LISTEN UP ere no fun allowed beyond this point. Keep your memes close to your body or they will take them.
Just a bit of personalisation would go a long way. The communities themselves should have the kind of personalisation that you'd see in forum software. The easy differentiation between spaces would then act as a prompt to users on what rulesets they should be observing, the same way it works on reddit.
Just because the software allows us to do this, doesn't mean we should actually do it.
Resist the temptation to tinker with new stuff. I don't think federation is worth the effort.
I mostly agree, but I think that it might be worth trying for a week, if it works then we're good if it doesn't work then we defederate and keep walking. There's nothing to lose.
wait, this isn't about Star Trek? shit.
(you raised several good questions)
They seem more or less very excited to watch us purge their libs.
Well, then even if we dont federate I propose sending an International Brigade over.
We will all share one toothbrush
we will all share one server
