Sorry to do this debate-bro stuff, but how would you respond to someone who says fascism is left-wing?

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=qOsVqXMFAdg is two rightists talking is fascism left or right, and Gerard Casey concludes that fascism is left-wing. He cites the Fascist Manifesto of 1919, which in fairness does look pretty left-wing, is mostly about worker benefits.

Counterpoints I can think of:

  • Fascism is inegalitarian.

  • Fascism is oppressive

  • Fascism is about privatisation – but I'm not very clued in on the history of this, on what industries fascist governments privatised and how consistent they were with this. Did they also nationalise other industries?]

  • Unask the question, say 'left' and 'right' are meaningless

Again, sorry about this. Obviously not trying to defend fascism, just trying to get clarity.

  • kristina [she/her]
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    edit-2
    1 year ago

    Fascism has always been about mimicking leftist groups and organization in order to dull the leftist movement. In Spain and Italy, it was National Syndicalism, in Germany, national socialism. They never actually implement anything proworker. It's aesthetics.

    Regardless, enslaving Jews or anyone based on ethnic background is the inverse of what any left wing tendency believes

    • Gosplan14_the_Third [none/use name]
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      edit-2
      1 year ago

      They never actually implement anything proworker.

      Funnily, iirc Fascist Italy did... in 1943-1945 as a desperate measure to win popular support as the communists were very influential in the partisan movement.

      • JuneFall [none/use name]
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        1 year ago

        They never actually implement anything proworker.

        At first I wanted to quip about that, like the Nazis ensured a steady supply of soldiers for the Soviets to beat, which is pro workers as it shows the superiority of real existing socialist states.

        However the point I would rather highlight and highlight boldly is this:

        Whenever the NSDAP (german nazi party) did something pro worker or pro family or alike it was also clothed in something to exclude some and further hierarchies. For example any advantage in animal rights wasn't really for the animals, and in fact it didn't challenge the production process or help animals, instead it was used to criminalize and other for example Jews and Arabs who wanted Kosher or Halal food, the main target was the first though and by a wide margin.

        Nazism needs scape goats and people to literally exterminate, in the end it will eat itself.

        • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]
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          1 year ago

          The end stage of fascism would just be the last guy killing the second-last guy for having the wrong blood type or something

  • Hexaglycon [he/him,they/them]
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    1 year ago

    Left and Right wing politics generally are about their relationship to hierarchy and supremacy.

    The Left are causes dedicated to dismantling structures which make the claim that people are inferior or less deserving. The concept of equality is core to leftism, and is what I feel is the core of the difference between left and right wing ideology.

    The Right is dedicated to perpetuating or bolstering hierarchy. They don't see hierarchy as something to be opposed, but rather, as either a natural force that we have to just make do with, or as a positive quality of a system that needs to be emphasized. Because of this, concepts like workers rights, LGBT acceptance, and other things which emphasize helping the "lower classes" socially or otherwise are opposed to right wing politics.

    Another way to see it is, left wingers want equality, and right wingers oppose that. Fascism is not an ideology based on equality, it's one based on supremacy. Fascism doesn't exist without stratifying social structures and finding a lower class to exploit.

  • WoofWoof91 [comrade/them]
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    1 year ago

    in addition to all these answers, one of the first things fascists usually do is kill all the leftists

  • Dolores [love/loves]
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    1 year ago

    what you've got to understand about the Fascist Manifesto is that Mussolini did not implement that stuff, and did not write it.

  • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]
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    1 year ago

    It's literally illegal to be a member of a communist party but not a fascist party, clearly the capitalists think there's a big difference

    • Juice [none/use name]
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      1 year ago

      People who think that fascism is left wing also think there is a communist conspiracy to take our freedom and democracy

      • kristina [she/her]
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        1 year ago

        in the USA, it just hasnt been enforced recently. in plenty of other countries it is the case or they try to make it the case every year like in czechia

        • Vampire [any]
          hexagon
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          1 year ago

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Communist_Party_USA_members_who_have_held_office_in_the_United_States

          • kristina [she/her]
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            1 year ago

            You will note that there is an empty period from 49 to 2019

            • Des [she/her, they/them]
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              1 year ago

              more like a yawning maw. so excited for when the next republican (or who am i kidding maybe dem) administration decides to start enforcing this. maybe after jd second thought decides to run for office or something as a wholesome communist

            • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]
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              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Looks like they're in order by state rather than chronologically, so there's actually been 3 since 1949, and all at the city level lmao

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      1 year ago

      The idea that capitalists will always side with fascists over communists is obviously wrong. Anyone who claims that is forgetting about some pretty large events.

      • MoreAmphibians [none/use name]
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        1 year ago

        Which large events? WW2? The entire capitalist order tried to sign peaces and non-aggression pacts with Hitler in order to try to get the Nazis to fight the Soviets. Western corporations massively helped the Nazis both before and during the war. The capitalist nations reluctantly started attacking the Nazis only once they themselves were attacked.

        • NephewAlphaBravo [he/him]
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          1 year ago

          Gotta get yourself established on the ground over there so you can set up your Gladio bullshit earlier rather than later

  • Judge_Jury [comrade/them, he/him]
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    edit-2
    1 year ago

    It might be useful to look at The Doctrine of Fascism, and compare what Mussolini had to say in that later expansion on his ideas:

    Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the “right,” a Fascist century. If the 19th century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the “collective” century, and therefore the century of the State. It is quite logical for a new doctrine to make use of the still vital elements of other doctrines. No doctrine was ever born quite new and bright and unheard of. No doctrine can boast absolute originality.

    I think it's perfectly fair to say that the Fascist Manifesto is a dishonest advertisement. Considering Fascism's role as Capital's "immune system" against threats to itself, their co-opting of basic leftish demands is more or less common sense for them

    Edit: I should probably clarify that when he talks about a collective, he in no way means the collective of humanity. He means Italy as a Volk

      • YoungBelden [any]
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        1 year ago

        this thread i presume

        one convincing model/definition of fascism is that it's the bourgeois reaction against the working class, arising or activating in order to crush/discipline labor and preserve the institution of private property at any cost. under this definition of fascism, one wouldn't call it a distinct system apart from capitalism, but rather a microcosm or phenomena that happens within capitalist systems to preserve capitalism. as someone stated elsewhere in the thread, the fascisms of the early 20th century were in many ways direct responses to leninism.

        so someone ascribing to this definition of fascism (which I do myself) would strongly believe that you can't define/understand fascism without also describing capitalism. also we would obviously think the idea of fascism being leftist is absurd on multiple levels

        iirc the capital order is a good read to understand this better. its central thesis links austerity and fascism as reactions against labor.

  • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
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    edit-2
    1 year ago

    fascism invented privatization by the state. to the extent that fascism in germany and italy pursued any sort of project of state organization of the economy, it was in active concert with the capitalists, and regularly crushed all explicitly left-wing social movements. in italy, the rebellion of socialist workers against the fascists was on the grounds of class warfare. in germany, of course, it was the social democrats choosing to form a coalition with the conservative party and the nazis instead of the communists that can most directly be linked to hitler's ascension to the chancellorship. at all turns, the nazi movement's left aesthetics are explicitly only intended to consumed as a utopian vision by the favored dominant ethnic group around which the fascist state project is centered, and these are coupled to incredibly conservative social norms and projects. consider for example that even before they came for the communists, they came for the trans people and hirschfield's institute in berlin.

    but perhaps even more cogently when doing debate bro shit, there are records of the nazis actively planning out how to best co-opt the popularity of left movements in order to gain support. any "left" policy that can be attributed to fascists is always a thinly veiled, explicitly disingenuous ploy to gain supporters.

    as for that fascist manifesto, it's pretty clearly, based on when those labor rights were won in america (early 1900's) vs when the fascist movements were controlling the states in europe (1930's), an attempt to dull any radical labor movement via a set of minimally viable concessions that don't actually threaten profits. and they especially don't threaten profits when your main plan for capital accumulation involves cannibalizing both your neighbors and the colonized peoples of the global south.

    • SirKlingoftheDrains [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      I feel like this is the best answer I've read as it points out that the state utilizes private industry for growth, and industry has a ton of autonomy in self regulation. It also mentions one of the more salient points, which is the pressures to expand beyond borders driven by the exigencies of industrial growth. Germany's supercharged industrial production needed raw inputs and expansive growth outside of Germany to maintain it's viability. It is Liberalism under stress, reaching it's logical end.

      Here is a contemporaneous analysis and one of the best descriptions I've read on the subject.

  • blobjim [he/him]
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    1 year ago

    cuz all the actual fascists are right-wing. Their biggest enemies were left wing. You don't need to debate-bro anything if you look at real world examples and not some thing some nerd wrote in a book.

    • Vampire [any]
      hexagon
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is a non-thought. They're right-wing because they are?

      • viva_la_juche [they/them, any]
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        edit-2
        1 year ago

        it’s maybe a bit reductive but tbh I mean I see his point? Like you can just see what they’re about and go oh yea that’s right wing shit.

        Fascism is kind of amorphous by design but one of its characteristics that travels across its various permutations is usually a heavy centering on reactionary politics that are inherently right wing. That “we need to go back to [THE GOOD TIMES]” shit is something conservative and fascists share and part of why conservatives get pipelined into fascism so heavily which can be observed in American politics over the last decade or two.

        Observing things and seeing how they act and what they support is generally sufficient being asked to cite shit and “prove” a fascist is a fascist is just a common rhetorical device employed by libs and fascists alike to muddy the waters

      • JuneFall [none/use name]
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        1 year ago

        It is even more sharp than thoughts, it is the historical and quite material evidence of history.

        There are enough answers in this thread already, there are of course quite a few fascism concepts (Marxist and not) and analysis, which really don't matter so much (and reading excerpts of AskHistorians will give insight in like a fifth of them).

        However one of the most easy refutations is to link the term right and left to one of its historical precedence the parliament in which the term was born.

        In it the parties were seated from the left (the communists) over the middle (which also exposes the middle not as the norm, or natural, but a choice made by people to propagandize the reasonable as the middle compromise) to the right (which fascists, feudalists and libertarians of the US kind choosing on their own their seats and chose to be on the right side, as the extreme pole to the left). This didn't change a lot.

        That said there are arguments to be done why the Nazis were in some sense Left into those I wont get into.

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]
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        1 year ago

        They're right-wing not simply because they are, but because of what they do, what they say, what they value, and who they consider enemies, hence blobjim's "You don't need to debate-bro anything if you look at real world examples" comment

        The nice thing about fascists is that their motivations are simple and the minute they acquire any modicum of power they drop the dog whistles and begin the process of counter-revolution

        Terrible for the people facing them, but very useful for future historians

  • newmou [he/him]
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    1 year ago

    I believe fascism requires close collaboration between a bourgeoisie and ruling political party. So it’s like structurally bolstering the relationship the bourgeoisie have to the means of production whereas the “left” seeks to do the opposite with the bourgeoisie

  • YoungBelden [any]
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    1 year ago

    lot of good resources in this thread to help develop your own understanding

    but also worth talking about: how do you engage with someone who claims something like this?

    it's worth remembering that fascist, leftist, rightwing, progressive, these are all signifiers for concepts which themselves are representations of real-world phenomena. there's a lot of play in the relationship between a signifier and a concept, between the concept and the real, and between your signifier/concept (sign) and another person's signifier/concept. when you get in the weeds about whether fascism means this or that, you risk getting tangled up in semantics, which often is a waste of time, especially when trying to communicate with someone (and even more so if they're engaging in bad faith, which is the whole point of this semantic dance fascists like to engage in).

    so if someone claims this in good faith, they're saying the word fascism represents a concept or essence of leftism in their mind (likely big government or totalitarianism or whatever). in this case the problem isn't really in their choice of language, but in their conception of reality, the relationship between the real-world and the concepts they've inaccurately and reductively formed to represent it. so i'd probably push back on their understanding of "government" being scalable linearly, like the idea that you can understand a government simply as "big" or "small". explain how this "size" or "authoritarianism" value is a poor measure of experiential freedom and outcomes. is a government that enforces worker safety regulations equally as authoritarian as one that bans unionizing? might specific laws effect people differently depending on their economic class?

    i like to push the idea of material interests as an alternative model to a one-dimensional authoritarian/free spectrum. instead of "is this good or bad?", ask "who is this good or bad for?" Nazi Germany was demonstrably bad for working people, as was fascist italy, as was Franco's spain, as was Pinochet's Chile. so then you may be able to introduce the idea that leftism may signify good for working people, which fascism (the real-world phenomenon) is clearly not.

  • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]
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    1 year ago

    Read blackshirts and reds by Michael parenti. The whole book is specifically about this and goes into it in great detail.

  • yastreb
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    edit-2
    1 year ago

    deleted by creator

  • culpritus [any]
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    1 year ago

    Here's some economic analysis of the history of liberalism using austerity as a way to enact fascist policies. The barbarism is the point.

    https://youtu.be/SIpi5Ui88MU

  • Awoo [she/her]
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    1 year ago

    The far left seeks the complete and total victory of the working class over the bourgeoisie.

    The far right seeks the complete and total victory of the bourgeoise over the working class.

    The left/right spectrum is created by the primary contradiction of capitalism, the class struggle generated by the opposing interests of the working class and the bourgeoisie.