fuck every "leftist" who does not acknowledge usa is not lesser evil or any other bullshit
I think a lot of western leftism is less focused on building a movement and more on carving out little leftists enclaves where you can LARP like you're living in a post-capitalist society. And the thing is, it's easier to do that under a bourgeois liberal democracy than a AES state. The bourgeois don't care about your zucchini farming commune, have fun fuckers it's not challenge to our power. The Party Chairman who's survived 3 assassination attempts this year alone is maybe within his rights to suspect your utopian commune could become a CIA gun smuggling front and may shut it down.
Anyway that's why I think certain "anti-authoritarian leftists" defend western liberal democracy, internally they're a more welcoming space for social experimentation.
this would be funny if it wasn't literally what happened to proles of the round table
What actually happened to them? I've seen them mentioned on and off as podcasts to listen to but never knew the lore behind what happened
I don’t remember exactly but one guy wanted to use the patron money to start a brewery, don’t remember if he actually did it. I think the others released an episode or two where they talk about it. IIRC all the episodes are on archive.org somewhere
At least microbreweries make some decent beers sometimes, a lot of these communes can't even grow fucking zucchini right.
If you can't grow zucchini you live in the antarctic or the ocean and even then I wouldn't be surprised if those fuckers thrived there as well.
Literally a running joke in my town is the only time you have to lock your car doors is late summer because otherwise you'll come back from a store and one of your neighbors will have left 5 pounds of zucchini on your passenger seat.
And our second most profitable crop is rocks.
US is good but flawed and just needs some reforms.
The reforms:
Show
Actually Existing Socialism for example China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and Best Korea
If usa is anything but the great satan for you, you are not leftist
And this isn't purity, this is praxis
America is always the greater satan. Death to Amerikka, if course
Just wait until you find out how popular aryanism still is with basically any group of white people in the world outside of maybe some of Ireland.
I might be taking a meme way too seriously, buuuut.
Okay, if life in China and the US is about equal if not better in favour of China - why not go live there?
I wouldn't. Why? No trans rights. Familial approval for medication is a killer for trans people, in practice it might as well be a ban outside of two neighbourhoods in San Francisco. Not to mention the clamping down on DIY, which unlike the west, the Chinese government has real power to actually enforce to some extent.
So the US is better off in that regard, I'd much rather live there and their government positions align more with my own and I'm anti-China and "anti-authoritarian" in that sense, but still a socialist.
Why wouldn't I be?
This is just one example, there are others. So I think it's disingenuous to frame Libertarian socialists/anarchists as purely just simping for 'murikkka when many of them are readily willing to admit US bad too, just less bad in some ways.
So, let me get this straight, you think that not participating in warfare for more than 40 years is just as bad as constantly invading the rest of the world, committing genocides, torture, etc. in the name of colonialism on the grounds that you get to benefit from the latter regime? And you want to be taken seriously?
Yeah, seems like you are just simping for the empire that kills and tortures non-white people en masse because you are, personally, a beneficiary of said killings and torture.
On the grounds I get to benefit? So are you implying that the relative freedom for queer folk in the US is a direct product of imperialist foreign policy, and the absence of this in China is why queer rights struggle there?
On the grounds I get to benefit?
You quite literally are saying that because you would personally benefit from the empire that has been committing genocide after genocide throughout its history and which has been the most prolific aggressor in the world for a while, you choose to be more aligned with it instead of with the rest of the world. You choose for your position to be an oppressor-nationalist one and anti-internationalist.
Going to quote the relevant line lest you decide to hide it later:
So the US is better off in that regard, I'd much rather live there and their government positions align more with my own and I'm anti-China and "anti-authoritarian" in that sense, but still a socialist
So are you implying that the relative freedom for queer folk in the US is a direct product of imperialist foreign policy
No, it's a consequence of LGBT community fighting for its rights, and not a consequence of your empire voluntarily giving LGBT people their rights.
Also, it wasn't too long ago when your empire was more hostile to LGBT people than the PRC is today, or other non-Imperial core states of the past. You seem to assume that it is impossible for relevant things to change.
In any case, you are a chauvinist. You will find another reason to support your empire's genocides. If it's not LGBT rights, it would somehow be women's rights. If not that, it would be some vague 'human rights'. If not those, it would be no less vague 'freedom' in general and 'freedom of speech' in specific. Those are all just excuses.
You literally support genocides of non-white people and killing and torture of LGBT people across the world on the basis that you, personally, get to benefit from your empire.
Wow an imperialist social democrat, I'm shocked. You'd better actually be trans, and not some weasel hiding your bullshit behind fake concern for trans people.
you know theres plenty of situations in the us were families need to approve of you transitioning, or are you conveniently ignoring that?
Struggle where you are, fight in your workplace, support and raise awareness for international causes at home.
you know theres plenty of situations in the us were families need to approve of you transitioning, or are you conveniently ignoring that?
No I don't actually, I'd be interested to hear about this? As far as I'm aware, blue US states all have informed consent as the treatment model for adults, basically world standard in that regard.
Wow an imperialist
I think just because I critique an empire you like from an anarchist perspective doesn't make me an imperialist, but we can agree to disagree I suppose.
Struggle where you are, fight in your workplace, support and raise awareness for international causes at home.
One doesn't exclude the other. I'm not sitting about foaming at the mouth about China all day, we're just having a discussion and I'm open to hearing your perspective.
I think just because I critique an empire you like from an anarchist perspective doesn't make me an imperialist, but we can agree to disagree I suppose.
Lol. You literally think that not starting any wars in general for more than 40 years is just as bad as constantly invading the rest of the world and killing and torturing non-white people - including LGBT people.
Hell, you have come out and said that you are more aligned with the latter than with the former, so yes, it's safe to say that you are an imperialism supporter. Your 'anarchist perspective' is just 'it's good that my state kills millions abroad for my benefit'.
One doesn't exclude the other. I'm not sitting about foaming at the mouth about China all day
You have already said that you are more fine with a regime that can't exist for one second without invading somewhere and committing genocides than with a state that has provably made massive improvements in the lives of working-class people, has been at the forefront of switching the world's energy to green, which hasn't committed any genocides, and which hasn't started any wars in more than 40 years.
Lol. You literally think that not starting any wars in general for more than 40 years is just as bad as constantly invading the rest of the world and killing and torturing non-white people - including LGBT people.
No? I just said that China's trans policy is awful and backwards and my solidarity goes to those who suffer from it in China and that the US is better in that respect. US imperialism is awful and the past half-century of exploitation and subjugation by the US is also terrible. One does not exclude the other.
Hell, you have come out and said that you are more aligned with the latter than with the former
I said that because trans rights are better in the US than China. On that front, I am indeed more aligned with the US than China, but it doesn't mean I don't also hate the US.
it's safe to say that you are an imperialism supporter. Your 'anarchist perspective' is just 'it's good that my state kills millions abroad for my benefit'.
Because I support trans rights?
You have already said that you are more fine with a regime
I'm fundamentally, as an anarchist - not fine with the US or China. It's in the name.
with a state that has provably made massive improvements in the lives of working-class people, has been at the forefront of switching the world's energy to green, which hasn't committed any genocides, and which hasn't started any wars in more than 40 years.
And all of these things are good. China did good! And that's not even all, their actual management of the day-to-day absolutely eviscerates the west in terms of sheer ability to get shit done, from building entire cities while the UK says it will take them 20 years to build a reservoir, building high speed rail while the UK can't get a tunnel dig approved and building and maintaining roads that make US infrastructure look like dirt trails.
See? I'm not some imperialist stooge or a jingoistic patriot and I'm happy to praise China where it's due. But that doesn't contradict in any way anything I said earlier.
No? I just said that China's trans policy is awful and backwards and my solidarity goes to those who suffer from it in China and that the US is better in that respect.
And I can just as easily point out that the US was much worse and more backwards not at all long ago. And the US has seemingly been experiencing much more of a backwards push than the PRC.
US imperialism is awful and the past half-century of exploitation and subjugation by the US is also terrible. One does not exclude the other
One of these things, however, is unambiguously much, much worse than the other.
On that front, I am indeed more aligned with the US than China, but it doesn't mean I don't also hate the US
Okay, can you explicitly come out and say that your positions overall are more aligned with those of the PRC than with those of the US?
Because I support trans rights?
The US kills trans people and other LGBT people in the third world. You seem to be more fine with that than with the PRC giving trans people a somewhat subpar package of rights.
I'm fundamentally, as an anarchist - not fine with the US or China. It's in the name.
So, are you more fine with the rest of the world fighting for liberation from you, even if it is done using states (I'm going to note that anarchists have not had much success fighting for anybody's liberation anywhere, to my knowledge - this is the best that people around the world have managed so far; I'm also going to note that anarchist organisation fundamentally sacrifices military capabilities, which are necessary in the world's liberation from NATO), or are you going to engage in equivocation between NATO and its victims?
If it's the former, then I take most of what I said back. If it's the latter, my points stand, as equivocation between the perpetrators of colonialism, genocides, etc. and their victims is, in effect, support for the former.
See? I'm not some imperialist stooge or a jingoistic patriot and I'm happy to praise China where it's due.
Alright, so can you come out and explicitly say that your positions are overall more aligned with the Global South than with NATO?
One doesn't exclude the other
Also, you seem to not understand why you were told to focus on your country/state.
Supposedly, you know more about where you live than about countries where you never set foot in and which you are only informed about by memes and other forms of osmosis. This makes you more qualified to deal with the former than with the latter.
Supposedly, also, you have a greater ability to influence the situation in the country where you live than elsewhere (unless you join your military to invade other countries, in which case you are welcome to be rightfully punished for that).
Westerners who consider themselves to be 'anarchists' sure do tend to ignore all that and simp for their genocidal states while regurgitating said states' propaganda about how evil and barbarous all of those countries that are outside of the imperial core are.
Your beliefs are neither anti-authoritarian, nor are they rooted in international camaraderie and recognition of people from other countries as fellow human beings.Supposedly, you know more about where you live than about countries where you never set foot
Yes
and which you are only informed about by memes and other forms of osmosis.
No. I'm by no means an expert, but there's tons of resources online and offline that aren't memes or the U.S. State Department. Even just reading the sources on Wikipedia isn't usually a bad start.
Supposedly, also, you have a greater ability to influence the situation in the country where you live than elsewhere
Yes.
Westerners who consider themselves to be 'anarchists' sure do tend to ignore all that
No. If anything Anarchists are the leftists who actually do stuff like organize mutual aid networks or at the very least squat vacant properties of the rich.
and simp for their genocidal states
No. Where did I simp for any country here? I just stated facts - that US is better for trans people than China.
while regurgitating said states' propaganda about how evil and barbarous all of those countries that are outside of the imperial core are.
No, again, where did I do that? I'm sure there's misinformed comrades out there, but this is an absurd framing.
Your beliefs are neither anti-authoritarian
No. I decry authoritarian overreach wherever I see it, be it the US or China, in context of LGBT issues, things are worse in China than the US, but the last century of US' imperialist foreign policy where it imposed it's will on the globe are all horrifically awful things too.
It's like some folks just cannot comprehend that you don't have to simp for any empires at all, and you can critique them all at once, all while focusing on the place you live and what you can do to help and influence most.
nor are they rooted in international camaraderie and recognition of people from other countries as fellow human beings.
No. In fact it is the exact opposite, as I don't see people from different cultures as some unknowable aliens but as just people who live somewhere else.
I know trans folks, I understand our struggles here in the west and I do not think of trans folks in China as being some 'other' who must enjoy being under the boot of oppressive, backwards laws, I have nothing but solidarity and support for them in achieving liberation just as we aim for here.
I do not want to be presumptive, but frankly if anything this view that you have seems to be of someone who hasn't traveled much, which is totally fine, neither have I really, it is a purposeful injustice that few people have the means to do so, but from my experiences traveling, people are people, and they are mostly the same everywhere, most working people want the same things and there is nothing wrong with being critical of the forces of capital or religion or governments that transcend borders and require international solidarity from us.
No. I'm by no means an expert, but there's tons of resources online and offline that aren't memes or the U.S. State Department. Even just reading the sources on Wikipedia isn't usually a bad start
You mean the sources like Radio Free Asia? Lol.
No. If anything Anarchists are the leftists who actually do stuff like organize mutual aid networks or at the very least squat vacant properties of the rich
More than 100 years of activity, and all that western anarchists have managed to achieve is get supported by the FBI to disrupt socialist movements as part of COINTELPRO and to become a machine for regurgitation of USian anti-communist propaganda.
No. Where did I simp for any country here?
Here:
So the US is better off in that regard, I'd much rather live there and their government positions align more with my own and I'm anti-China and "anti-authoritarian" in that sense, but still a socialist.
You claim that the positions of the US government are more aligned with yours than the positions of a government that has not started any wars in more than 40 years, and which has been a victim of colonialism of NATO states (including Japan, which is de facto a NATO state), and which has been (one of, if not) the most successful state in the world in terms of improving the living standards of working-class people.
By your own admission, your positions are more similar to those of a state that has been the most prolific aggressor in the world for a century or so, which has been carrying out genocide after genocide, and which has also been engaging in colonialism, than to those of a state that has not started a war in more than 40 years, that has been at the forefront of production of green energy units, that has been the most successful at improving the living standards of working-class people in the world.
Either explain yourself, admit to having been wrong, or admit to being a supporter of genocides and colonialism.
No, again, where did I do that?
Have you changed your position on the PRC, then? Or do you want to both claim that you find the positions of your genocidal empire align more with your positions than those of the PRC, and that the PRC is not the absolute evil that your empire claims it to be?
Also, on this note, I'd like to ask if you support the states (and state-like polities) that have been victims of your empire's colonialism in their struggle against your empire's colonialism? This includes such boogeymen as the DPRK, Hamas, and, to a much lesser extent, Russia (where, again, NATO killed millions via shock therapy legislature which it took part in designing).
No. I decry authoritarian overreach wherever I see it, be it the US or China
Sure, you say that, but then you go 'therefore, I support the US', which you have already admitted to. Again, what you said is already saved, there is no use denying or hiding that.
Instead of liberation of the vast majority of the world from your yoke, you claim that third world countries are evil, authoritarian, and barbarous, and that, therefore, the victims of NATO colonialism should remain victims of NATO colonialism.
It's extremely likely that out of the sides of the Korean war, you support the US and its colonial government set up in the parts of Korea occupied by it. You support the killing of millions of Koreans and flattening of their homes during that war. Because the exceedingly popular movement that arose from trade unions was 'authoritarian'. You likely complain about the DPRK today as well, because the victims of your colonialism are 'authoritarian', while ignoring the conditions in which they have to exist (in particular, the threat of your empire which killed millions of them when it invaded last time and destroyed most of the country).
You likely also support the European colonial government of South Vietnam, and have an issue with the victims of your colonialism, again, being 'authoritarian', while ignoring the conditions in which they have to exist. You likely also support the blockade and the attempted invasion Cuba by your empire, because of Cuba being 'authoritarian', while ignoring both the fact that they have probably the most pro-LGBT legislature in the world right now, and while ignoring the conditions in which they have to exist. You likely also support NATO's collaboration with Guomindang and the RoC, despite them enacting white terror in Taiwan, killing dissenters, and establishing a very authoritarian dictatorship in Taiwan. After all, you did say that you are more aligned with your empire under which that happened than with the state that the Guomindang fought against. You probably also support NATO's invasions and the killing of millions in Iraq, as well as the invasion and two decades of active warfare in Afghanistan, because the states of those countries are 'authoritarian'. After all, you are more aligned with the empire that did that than with the state that hasn't started any wars in more than 40 years. You likely also support NATO transforming Libya from a country with the highest HDI in Africa into a haven for open-air slave markets. Because not allowing slavers a free reign is so 'authoritarian'.I'd be happy to be proven wrong about you supporting all of that, but then I'd like to ask you, in what way are you more aligned with your empire than with the PRC?
in context of LGBT issues, things are worse in China than the US, but the last century of US' imperialist foreign policy where it imposed it's will on the globe are all horrifically awful things too
You are saying this as if the issues with LGBT rights in the PRC are anywhere close to being as bad as what the US has done throughout its history (starting with the whole settler-colonialism stuff in the Americas as an organ of the British polities).
Again, either the positions of the US government are NOT aligned more with yours than those of the PRC, or you think that the US having a bit better situation with regards to LGBT rights for USians (for now, at least, considering that there is more of a push against LGBT rights in the US than in the PRC, as far as I can see) outweighs the fact that the US has been the most prolific killer and torturer of people around the globe, which includes LGBT people. And yes, this means that if the latter is the case, your positions are that killing LGBT people in the third world is fine so long as your empire gives you a bribe.
It's like some folks just cannot comprehend that you don't have to simp for any empires at all, and you can critique them all at once
Cool. But you go further. You equivocate victims of your empire's colonialism with the perpetrators of said colonialism. Worse yet, there is at least one case where you have come out and said that your positions are more aligned with those of the perpetrators of colonialism rather than with those of the victims.
If you think that I don't have criticism of states like the USSR or the PRC, then you are incorrect. I, however, do not think that my own well-being is something that is more valuable than the well-being of other people, and I also don't make claims like 'I support the most prolific genocidal force in the world more than a state that hasn't started a war in more than 40 years and which has not perpetrated any genocides'.
No. In fact it is the exact opposite
So, either what you are saying now is true, or what you said before - about the positions of the US government being closer to yours - is true. Which is it?
I know trans folks, I understand our struggles here in the west and I do not think of trans folks in China as being some 'other' who must enjoy being under the boot of oppressive, backwards laws, I have nothing but solidarity and support for them in achieving liberation just as we aim for here
If you wanted solidarity with them, you wouldn't be supporting the US government, which has been trying to induce economic crises in the PRC and which has been trying to spark a war with the PRC.
Furthermore, the US is the most prolific killer of LGBT people by virtue of just how many people it has been killing around the world. Do you think that the LGBT people of the world should enjoy being under the boot and bomb of the US?
I do not want to be presumptive, but frankly if anything this view that you have seems to be of someone who hasn't traveled much, which is totally fine, neither have I really, it is a purposeful injustice that few people have the means to do so, but from my experiences traveling, people are people, and they are mostly the same everywhere, most working people want the same things and there is nothing wrong with being critical of the forces of capital or religion or governments that transcend borders and require international solidarity from us
I never had enough resources to travel much, but I did not need that to come to the very simple conclusion that people are people everywhere, especially considering that where I'm from is not an ethnically - or, for that matter, religiously - homogenous place.
If you actually want international solidarity, then you shouldn't support what is literally the most prolific genocidal force in the world.
Most importantly, you can't go become a citizen or even permanent resident there. Oh, sure you can go on their embassy website and it has a process. You won't ever get through that process, though. Only a few super rich or famous westerns are able to get through that process. Not average people like us. If you marry a Chinese citizen you won't even get it. You will have to get temporary visas every few years even if you have a kid. Your kid will be a Chinese citizen. You will never be or even a permanent resident. You will not be able to open a bank account, fully use WeChat for easy stuff like payments, have trouble getting housing, and so much more. You will perpetually be a legal outsider there.
Unfortunately, yeah. I could be wrong, however. Here is a bit of a challenge: find someone who is a normal working-class person who was not a Chinese citizen and who was able to go through the process and get permanent residency or citizenship. As a far as I know nobody has done it unless they were rich or famous. I think you could probably find somebody but I'm pretty sure it'll be some kind of extenuating circumstance. Definitely no westerners. It's a big complaint among expats who married a Chinese spouse. The process to being a permanent resident there is basically impossible. At some point in the process it will completely and indefinitely stall out.
I wouldn't. Why? No trans rights. Familial approval for medication is a killer for trans people, in practice it might as well be a ban outside of two neighbourhoods in San Francisco.
I know almost nothing about LGBT stuff in China, and am kind of generally ignorant about most LGBT experiences in the US, so I definitely agree with your skepticism of China on the prospect of living there, but at the same time, I don't feel confident that either of us have reliable information on where China is in terms of cultural progression to adopting LGBT rights. You might be standing on shaky ground regarding the US's apparent progress and recent advancements, which appears at high risk of reactionary regression. I'd say staying in the US is perhaps not as safe as one may assume, but also, moving to a northern state is much easier than moving to China, so the mean time, I'll give you that, proving China is better on LGBT stuff will likely be a tall order. The burden of proof is probably going to be on us, and it will be a heavy burden.
On the other hand Cuba recently did a 2022 Cuban Family Code referendum (wikipedia).
Not to mention the clamping down on DIY, which unlike the west, the Chinese government has real power to actually enforce to some extent.
I have no idea what this is referring to, but I feel like this is also happening in the US, but it's enforced via corporations using profit motives. The usual barrier to DIY projects in the US is that John Deere/Apple doesn't want you to, or Radio Shack closed and you have to buy your parts online, some parts too complicated/miniaturized to build on US soil.
I don't feel confident that either of us have reliable information on where China is in terms of cultural progression to adopting LGBT rights.
Agreed. All my statements can be appended with an asterisk that all of these things would appear to be that way based on information available.
You might be standing on shaky ground regarding the US's apparent progress and recent advancements, which appears at high risk of reactionary regression
100% agree. It is a very worrying and increasingly likely prospect.
On the other hand Cuba recently did a 2022 Cuban Family Code referendum (wikipedia).
Yes! Cuba's reforms are very welcome and positive for LGBT folks, and I often use it as an example myself!
I have no idea what this is referring to
No problem, I'm happy to explain: In context of trans issues - DIY is referring to DIY Hormone Therapy (DIY HRT for short), where instead of whatever the medical process in a country is for transition (e.g. you go to a psychiatrist and they assess and diagnose you and then you go to an endocrinologist who issues a prescription for hormones) you go around all that by simply buying medication from usually a grey-market pharmacy that does not ask for prescriptions or even a homebrew unlicensed project that makes their own injectable hormones (it sounds dodgy, but the community is really good at self-policing the bad stuff from the good stuff, so it's a viable option).
Since HRT is what the bulk of physical transition is and what causes the most physical changes, especially to secondary sex characteristics (external physical traits that are not genitalia), it is highly desirable to trans folks, and the ability to do so without wait times, costs or legal restrictions associated with their country's medical system is extremely important, especially when such a system is or appears to be unfriendly and restrictive (UK, Russia, China).
The UK government was talking a big game about restricting DIY by blocking websites where one can buy hormones, but it culminated in one request to Google to take down a search result, so I feel fairly safe saying that the UK government simply doesn't have the means to do this, but in China, the government is fairly good at internet censorship (though the actual extent of it is overblown by western media of course), hence my original point is that they have capability and appear to have demonstrated a political desire to restrict DIY, which will harm trans folks.
That's the short version, hope it makes sense and thanks for reading.
I'm a reformist now
The main enemy is at home!
