So? Its clearly more convinoent for them to be part of russia. The wanted to be anexed for a lpng time but putin kept refusing. And even if you are as uncharitable as you are being. At least the partoes are not banned.
They may or may not be i dont live there. But at least they pretend to be. At worst they are just gaining some cheap political advantage by asosiating themselves to those ideas. Saying that is the same level of supression as a goberment that bans parties left of hittler is disingenious.
Ukraine specifically allows Nazis in the military. They have fascistic laws related to leftists parties. They celebrate Stephen Bandera. All their accomplices must be smashed and destroyed
As an example, the Ukrainian government literally put a statue of Stepan Bandera at Lviv, where he and the OUN perpetrated the Lviv pogroms as a part of the greater Holocaust.
if you are an accomplice to a nazi then you are a nazi
this is a lesson you and ukraine seriously need to learn
People here didn’t actually fall for the whole “we are invading because of Nazi’s” schtick did they?
no lol and after two months it's kind of embarrassing that you're still so ignorant on the community viewpoint and the matter in general. none of your criticisms mean anything because you plainly didn't take the time to understand either the conflict or the community before levying them
It's a statement about Ukrainian Nazis i.e. Azov, and their accomplices, i.e. the Ukrainian state and NATO.
How it's written is absolutely clearly not a statement on civilians, bystanders, anti-war movements, or others neutral to the conflict.
It's actually not clear at all because the only quantifier it provides is an amorphous category.
If a racist person makes a statement about " removed" they can defend it saying they were only talking about a very small group but the reality is they're signaling to other racists they're talking about the whole culture.
Your coworkers are afraid the author is including civilians and bystanders in the group "Nazis".
there's nothing amorphous about it. nazis and their accomplices are bad. simple as. ukraine is now on the grips of widespread ethno-fascist militias who worship nazi iconography and believe that asians, ie russians, are incapable of humanity. ukraine has for years now been recruiting nazis across the world, from south america to the rest of NATO. none of this was controversial anywhere in NATO aligned media before the state department got their way.
Completely agree. But "which Ukrainians are Nazis" is Not defined here. Bad actors who just want to kill Ukrainians can imply there are more Nazis in Ukraine than there actually are
there are a lot of bad actors in this war, like the roving bands of far right militias formed around the ideal of ethnic cleansing and which now form some of the highest positions of the ukrainian government. without them there wouldn't be more than ten thousand dead civilians in the donbass over the last 8 years. the worst thing is there's people who defend them. who fall over themselves to equivocate every protest against them and the widespread worship of bandera and hitler iconography in NATO's latest ally.
none of which is surprising. it's standard 'lives in the international community' modus operandi.
I didn't expect "Russia shouldn't bomb civilians" to be so controversial.
What economic system do you support? I seem to have stumbled into a world that thinks very differently than me on some topics so I want to know how similar or different we are on others
This is a leftist instance, mostly non-sectarian but leaning a bit more ML than anarchist (there are anarchists here as well though). We believe in communism. The site's userbase is strongly anti-imperialist.
Why do you suppose the Ukrainian attempted ethnic cleansing of it's eastern regions was not talked about by NATO aligned media? Why do you suppose every territory liberated by Ukraine sees a sudden massacre of russian speakers? Why do you suppose NATO aligned media shows the corpses of russian supporters as though Russia killed them? Why do you suppose all parties left of far right were banned by the Ukrainian government? Why do you suppose Stephan Bandera is now an icon of the Ukrainian state ideology? Why do you suppose the Ukrainian government believes asians and russians are incapable of humanity? Why do you suppose NATO aligned media never includes Africa, South America and most of Asia when talking about the international community? What is your opinion on the NAFO death cult? Why do you suppose NATO invaded and killed millions in the middle east over the past 20 years, yet no one was indicted?
I get it, it can be hard to say killing civilians is bad. You used a lot of words but just couldn't get it out but that's okay because we both learned a lot along the way!
Killing civilians is a terrible thing. Such is war. I don't know in what part of the international community you live in, but my reality is that for every given year of my life NATO was engaged in either a war, a trade war, or in political assassinations and coups. Millions upon millions of deaths, not to mention the impoverished and the enslaved. I only wish more countries could resist them. Thankfully, Russia can protect their own. More unfortunately the Ukrainians were lied to. They elected a man on the promise of peace, that man, who now sees Apartheid as a model to follow, continued the banderite agenda without a care in the world.
I'm sure you like to pretend to think NATO is bad. But you don't. Not really. The germans too, cried on TV about how sad they were about the genocidal wars in the middle east. But they helped anyways. That's why you have no answers for me or for the dead. You don't have a care in the world, for NATO is a garden and the world is a jungle.
Whats with the bee in your bonnet about getting people to say "Russia bad"? NATO is worse and the people here don't generally support their arming the far right Ukranian regime to keep the war going until every fighting age Ukrainian is dead just to hurt Russia.
Thats not a coherent response. Seriously. In this case what is the alternative? What could putin have done in your opinion? Peaceful negotiations with the west? He did that for 8 years. The west used that time for arming ukraine. And then simply ignored the previous acords.
So what is the alternative. Simply capitulate to the west? They tried that. It is the worst fall in the standard of living in recent history. And guess what nato decided it was not enough becauserussia was more useful as an enemy.
Let nato ethnically cleanse the russians from estern ukraine. And then let this roge regime host a huge army at the russian border?
If anything the minsk acords, like the iran deal should teach us that the west is incapable of negotiation.
Opposing the designated enemy's participation in a war is not meaningfully different than any hawk's position.
You're still supporting escalation of the war and more civilians getting killed or displaced.
If you're against civilians getting blown apart in Ukraine, as someone living in a western country, your only option is to oppose your side's participation in the war.
We saw this same shit happen with WWI. The correct position on two imperialist powers at war was and still is revolutionary defeatism.
Yes its bad because it should have hapenned 8 years ago. The current mess is because putin decided to apease the west for nearly a decade letting them arm ukraine to the teeth. Until he had no choise but to act.
It's as bad as Vietnam invading the Khmer Rouge to stomp on Pol Pot, so in other word, not bad at all. The Kiev fascist regime will fall and no amount of NATO wunderwaffen and Ukrainian neonazis larping as the OUN will change that.
awful to witness, but predictable. Russia's main warm-water port is in Sevastopol, Crimea. And the Ukrainian border is a 5 minute missile flight from Moscow.
If Azov has you convinced that Ukraine is a Nazi controlled country then you are a fool.
mr maoist whats your opinion on the widespread worship of stephan bandera and nazi iconography by the government that claims that 'asians are less capable of humanity, and russians are asians'.
It’s not so much that embracing azov mad them Nazis.
It’s more that the objectives of western imperialism were best served by empowering the right wing nationalists, which put the mask-on nazis in power, who then embraced azov.
It really just looks like legalism to call the Donbas part of Ukraine. After the several years of civil war the only way those territories could be reintegrated would either have to be an agreement that gave them almost full autonomy, or a thorough genocide.
It would probably be better to say Ukraine lost those territories than to say there was an imperialist conquest.
The problem is “and their accomplices”. It implies that if you don’t support the imperialist conquest of Ukraine then you are a Nazi, or that all Ukrainians are Nazis.
Please don't flatter yourself, like seriously.
On the scale of supporting/opposing Ukrainian Nazism there is say 5 distinct levels here.
1- Acknowledge the Nazis exist
2- Acknowledge they are persecuting the Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, acknowledge the Maidan coup, acknowledge a solution was already attempted and failed(by Ukrainian non-cooperation)
3- Given they exist and cause harm, understand and support the idea you and your western country should be at least neutral towards them
4-Argue that perhaps your western country should actually oppose actualy existing Nazis in practice and not just rhetoric
5- Actually do anything meaningful to support Russia in this war.
The shit libs in here are mostly in level 1, few even look towards reaching level 2.
Meanwhile you write some nonsense as if the discourse here is at level 5 and we are actually asking you to actualy go out there and go fight for Russia or some shit.
You are clearly struggling to even accept they exist so yeah as I said, don't flatter yourself as if people are asking you to support Russia when you don't even acknowledge the Nazis exist. Realy either educate yourself, or don't, either way just don't look like a fool with "but your asking for my support?" nonsense.
what do you make of the phone call with Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland where she specifically names who should be the next President of Ukraine before he was actually elected?
Russia has frequently done major crackdowns against the far right and Nazi groups in their own country. Ukraine invited them into high level positions of power. Ukraine banned all left wing political parties and has put up statues glorifying Nazi Holocaust perpetrators. Fuck off with this nonsense.
I'm denying their power in the Ukraine government.
There's a lot of Banderites in the Ukraine government. For example, there was a diplomatic incident where the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany publically engaged in Holocaust denial, falsely claiming that there was no evidence of Bandera's participation in the Holocaust.
My main point is that Russia successfully overthrowing the Ukrainian government would be a very bad thing
It's also not a particularly likely thing. The most likely resolution to the war is the cessation of some amount of territory, not complete occupation or the overthrow of the government.
Most of the "education yourself" is just asking people to believe conspiracy theories. A political alliance of several factions, lead by hundreds of thousands of civilians, ousted a Russian puppet government and people here decide that it was actually done by the CIA, all because amerikkka expressed support for the new Ukrainian government after it was finished. Yeah the CIA paid off all 500,000 civilian protesters, it was all astroturfed and wouldn't have happened without the CIA. Real big brain hours. Baseless conspiracy theories isn't real leftism, it isn't actual education. It's just seeing a narrative that you want to be true and assuming it is true without looking into what happened at all.
Completely dismissing the possibility that the CIA was involved in a coup as a "conspiracy theory" is extremely And equating that suspicion with "The CIA paid off all 500,000 protesters" is a pretty blatant strawman. There's plenty of ways that a foreign government could influence and support a popular uprising that aren't just directly bribing random people.
What about the uprising in Donbas? Do you think the only two options are 1) it's a legitimate reflection of popular support, or 2) everyone who supported it was bribed by the Russian government? Because if it's 2, then I'd call that a conspiracy theory. But I think there's plenty of possibilities in between those two. Personally, I'm of the opinion that both cases warrant similar degrees of skepticism. I recommend reading up on the history of CIA backed coups to get a better understanding of what mechanisms can be employed in such instances.
Integrating explicitly nazi paramilitaries, not only Azov but also Right Sector and a group literally called Freikorps into your military makes you a state sponsor of nazism. These are groups which before the war provided training to fascists from the US and Western Europe and harassed and intimidated people attending pride events. Far from a handful of nazi fellow travelers scattered across different battalions, these are ideologically committed terrorist groups who now have unlimited access to American arms and the explicit backing of the post-coup Ukrainian state.
To the extent that Russia's war in the Ukraine constitutes imperialism, it's almost entirely a reaction to the continued campaign of imperialist looting that NATO has waged since the collapse of the USSR.
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the Russian response has not in any way relieved the political suppression of the left wing in east ukraine tho, lol.
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Isnt donestk atleast nominally a comunist republic? That sonds like a lot less supression of the left when compared to the kiev regime
the Donetsk and Luhansk "people's republics" have been annexed to the Russian Federation and their leadership are all now in United Russia
So? Its clearly more convinoent for them to be part of russia. The wanted to be anexed for a lpng time but putin kept refusing. And even if you are as uncharitable as you are being. At least the partoes are not banned.
they're not communist republics. that's a pretty important takeaway from the question of if donetsk is a communist republic.
i seriously doubt the capacity for people to politically organize in a warzone under martial law even if left-wing parties aren't formally banned
They may or may not be i dont live there. But at least they pretend to be. At worst they are just gaining some cheap political advantage by asosiating themselves to those ideas. Saying that is the same level of supression as a goberment that bans parties left of hittler is disingenious.
Ukraine specifically allows Nazis in the military. They have fascistic laws related to leftists parties. They celebrate Stephen Bandera. All their accomplices must be smashed and destroyed
As an example, the Ukrainian government literally put a statue of Stepan Bandera at Lviv, where he and the OUN perpetrated the Lviv pogroms as a part of the greater Holocaust.
if you are an accomplice to a nazi then you are a nazi
this is a lesson you and ukraine seriously need to learn
no lol and after two months it's kind of embarrassing that you're still so ignorant on the community viewpoint and the matter in general. none of your criticisms mean anything because you plainly didn't take the time to understand either the conflict or the community before levying them
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are you perhaps unfamiliar with what an accomplice is? it doesn't mean "innocent fucking bystander"
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It's actually not clear at all because the only quantifier it provides is an amorphous category.
If a racist person makes a statement about " removed" they can defend it saying they were only talking about a very small group but the reality is they're signaling to other racists they're talking about the whole culture.
Your coworkers are afraid the author is including civilians and bystanders in the group "Nazis".
there's nothing amorphous about it. nazis and their accomplices are bad. simple as. ukraine is now on the grips of widespread ethno-fascist militias who worship nazi iconography and believe that asians, ie russians, are incapable of humanity. ukraine has for years now been recruiting nazis across the world, from south america to the rest of NATO. none of this was controversial anywhere in NATO aligned media before the state department got their way.
Completely agree. But "which Ukrainians are Nazis" is Not defined here. Bad actors who just want to kill Ukrainians can imply there are more Nazis in Ukraine than there actually are
there are a lot of bad actors in this war, like the roving bands of far right militias formed around the ideal of ethnic cleansing and which now form some of the highest positions of the ukrainian government. without them there wouldn't be more than ten thousand dead civilians in the donbass over the last 8 years. the worst thing is there's people who defend them. who fall over themselves to equivocate every protest against them and the widespread worship of bandera and hitler iconography in NATO's latest ally.
none of which is surprising. it's standard 'lives in the international community' modus operandi.
Okay I'm feeling lost in this convo a little so can we backup a sec
Is Russia's invasion and bombing of Ukraine bad?
Okay I'm feeling lost in this convo a little so can we backup a sec
Is Ukraine's decade of ethnic cleansing and bombing of the Donbas Republics good?
I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on that
But like my question? Avoiding?
Then you're not informed enough to have an opinion on this war, and are trying to cover it up with smugness
I didn't expect "Russia shouldn't bomb civilians" to be so controversial.
What economic system do you support? I seem to have stumbled into a world that thinks very differently than me on some topics so I want to know how similar or different we are on others
This is a leftist instance, mostly non-sectarian but leaning a bit more ML than anarchist (there are anarchists here as well though). We believe in communism. The site's userbase is strongly anti-imperialist.
Why do you suppose the Ukrainian attempted ethnic cleansing of it's eastern regions was not talked about by NATO aligned media? Why do you suppose every territory liberated by Ukraine sees a sudden massacre of russian speakers? Why do you suppose NATO aligned media shows the corpses of russian supporters as though Russia killed them? Why do you suppose all parties left of far right were banned by the Ukrainian government? Why do you suppose Stephan Bandera is now an icon of the Ukrainian state ideology? Why do you suppose the Ukrainian government believes asians and russians are incapable of humanity? Why do you suppose NATO aligned media never includes Africa, South America and most of Asia when talking about the international community? What is your opinion on the NAFO death cult? Why do you suppose NATO invaded and killed millions in the middle east over the past 20 years, yet no one was indicted?
I get it, it can be hard to say killing civilians is bad. You used a lot of words but just couldn't get it out but that's okay because we both learned a lot along the way!
Ps I agree NATO bad
Get this smug lib shit out of here
Killing civilians is a terrible thing. Such is war. I don't know in what part of the international community you live in, but my reality is that for every given year of my life NATO was engaged in either a war, a trade war, or in political assassinations and coups. Millions upon millions of deaths, not to mention the impoverished and the enslaved. I only wish more countries could resist them. Thankfully, Russia can protect their own. More unfortunately the Ukrainians were lied to. They elected a man on the promise of peace, that man, who now sees Apartheid as a model to follow, continued the banderite agenda without a care in the world.
I'm sure you like to pretend to think NATO is bad. But you don't. Not really. The germans too, cried on TV about how sad they were about the genocidal wars in the middle east. But they helped anyways. That's why you have no answers for me or for the dead. You don't have a care in the world, for NATO is a garden and the world is a jungle.
Really cool that you know more about me than I do.
I bet we have lots of beliefs in common. I just don't understand or support your reluctance to say Russia is doing some very bad things
Whats with the bee in your bonnet about getting people to say "Russia bad"? NATO is worse and the people here don't generally support their arming the far right Ukranian regime to keep the war going until every fighting age Ukrainian is dead just to hurt Russia.
Whats the alternative?
Lmao
Thats not a coherent response. Seriously. In this case what is the alternative? What could putin have done in your opinion? Peaceful negotiations with the west? He did that for 8 years. The west used that time for arming ukraine. And then simply ignored the previous acords.
So what is the alternative. Simply capitulate to the west? They tried that. It is the worst fall in the standard of living in recent history. And guess what nato decided it was not enough becauserussia was more useful as an enemy.
Let nato ethnically cleanse the russians from estern ukraine. And then let this roge regime host a huge army at the russian border?
If anything the minsk acords, like the iran deal should teach us that the west is incapable of negotiation.
Whats the alternative here?
Opposing the designated enemy's participation in a war is not meaningfully different than any hawk's position.
You're still supporting escalation of the war and more civilians getting killed or displaced.
If you're against civilians getting blown apart in Ukraine, as someone living in a western country, your only option is to oppose your side's participation in the war.
We saw this same shit happen with WWI. The correct position on two imperialist powers at war was and still is revolutionary defeatism.
Yes its bad because it should have hapenned 8 years ago. The current mess is because putin decided to apease the west for nearly a decade letting them arm ukraine to the teeth. Until he had no choise but to act.
It's as bad as Vietnam invading the Khmer Rouge to stomp on Pol Pot, so in other word, not bad at all. The Kiev fascist regime will fall and no amount of NATO wunderwaffen and Ukrainian neonazis larping as the OUN will change that.
awful to witness, but predictable. Russia's main warm-water port is in Sevastopol, Crimea. And the Ukrainian border is a 5 minute missile flight from Moscow.
mr maoist whats your opinion on the widespread worship of stephan bandera and nazi iconography by the government that claims that 'asians are less capable of humanity, and russians are asians'.
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Secretary of the defence council of Ukraine.
Well it was just a day or two ago, hard to keep up with all thia shit
It’s not so much that embracing azov mad them Nazis.
It’s more that the objectives of western imperialism were best served by empowering the right wing nationalists, which put the mask-on nazis in power, who then embraced azov.
It really just looks like legalism to call the Donbas part of Ukraine. After the several years of civil war the only way those territories could be reintegrated would either have to be an agreement that gave them almost full autonomy, or a thorough genocide.
It would probably be better to say Ukraine lost those territories than to say there was an imperialist conquest.
Please don't flatter yourself, like seriously.
On the scale of supporting/opposing Ukrainian Nazism there is say 5 distinct levels here.
1- Acknowledge the Nazis exist
2- Acknowledge they are persecuting the Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, acknowledge the Maidan coup, acknowledge a solution was already attempted and failed(by Ukrainian non-cooperation)
3- Given they exist and cause harm, understand and support the idea you and your western country should be at least neutral towards them
4-Argue that perhaps your western country should actually oppose actualy existing Nazis in practice and not just rhetoric
5- Actually do anything meaningful to support Russia in this war.
The shit libs in here are mostly in level 1, few even look towards reaching level 2.
Meanwhile you write some nonsense as if the discourse here is at level 5 and we are actually asking you to actualy go out there and go fight for Russia or some shit.
You are clearly struggling to even accept they exist so yeah as I said, don't flatter yourself as if people are asking you to support Russia when you don't even acknowledge the Nazis exist. Realy either educate yourself, or don't, either way just don't look like a fool with "but your asking for my support?" nonsense.
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what do you make of the phone call with Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland where she specifically names who should be the next President of Ukraine before he was actually elected?
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Russia has frequently done major crackdowns against the far right and Nazi groups in their own country. Ukraine invited them into high level positions of power. Ukraine banned all left wing political parties and has put up statues glorifying Nazi Holocaust perpetrators. Fuck off with this nonsense.
There's a lot of Banderites in the Ukraine government. For example, there was a diplomatic incident where the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany publically engaged in Holocaust denial, falsely claiming that there was no evidence of Bandera's participation in the Holocaust.
It's also not a particularly likely thing. The most likely resolution to the war is the cessation of some amount of territory, not complete occupation or the overthrow of the government.
Completely dismissing the possibility that the CIA was involved in a coup as a "conspiracy theory" is extremely
And equating that suspicion with "The CIA paid off all 500,000 protesters" is a pretty blatant strawman. There's plenty of ways that a foreign government could influence and support a popular uprising that aren't just directly bribing random people.
What about the uprising in Donbas? Do you think the only two options are 1) it's a legitimate reflection of popular support, or 2) everyone who supported it was bribed by the Russian government? Because if it's 2, then I'd call that a conspiracy theory. But I think there's plenty of possibilities in between those two. Personally, I'm of the opinion that both cases warrant similar degrees of skepticism. I recommend reading up on the history of CIA backed coups to get a better understanding of what mechanisms can be employed in such instances.
Integrating explicitly nazi paramilitaries, not only Azov but also Right Sector and a group literally called Freikorps into your military makes you a state sponsor of nazism. These are groups which before the war provided training to fascists from the US and Western Europe and harassed and intimidated people attending pride events. Far from a handful of nazi fellow travelers scattered across different battalions, these are ideologically committed terrorist groups who now have unlimited access to American arms and the explicit backing of the post-coup Ukrainian state.
To the extent that Russia's war in the Ukraine constitutes imperialism, it's almost entirely a reaction to the continued campaign of imperialist looting that NATO has waged since the collapse of the USSR.