While I think the members of Red Star mean well and their faction generally has good positions, I've gotta push back on the idea that they've significantly pushed DSA's international work broadly or their anti-zionist work specifically in a better direction. The recent gutting of the anti-zionist resolution by the NPC and the retraction of the statements on the Venezuelan election and the Israeli assassination in Iran show that at the highest level DSA is firmly in control of chauvinist social democrats on these issues (I had to scoff when I heard of the "left" NPC getting elected last year, as if Bread and Roses are left lol)
Furthermore, DSA's position on the presidential election has always been firmly invested in working within the Democratic party as seen by their focus on the "uncommitted" movement and their recent statement about Harris picking Walz as her VP. They still hide in their dirty break/party surrogate position which functionally ends up the same as the CP's line.
There are a lot of good people in DSA and I learned a lot when I was a member but the organization is fundamentally repelled by any sort of discipline and the social fascists on it's right wing maintain their power through that disorder and have demonstated that they do not care if their opportunism harms the organization or anyone else for that matter. Changing it into something viable would take an immense amount of work that would be sabotaged by SMC/Groundwork/B&R every step of the way, or you could just join an actual Leninist org.
It's moving left though? Certainly not fast enough to meet this revolutionary moment but it is.
The less tut-tutty stuff barely failed, which I would call progress, it sucks that that is where it is at but movement is happening.
It sounds like you haven't pulled them left at all but failed by a narrower margin at pulling them left at all.
How is failing by a narrower margin not pulling them left if it's people voting?
If ten people vote for some leftist proposal and it fails, but then next year 20 people vote for some leftist proposal and it fails...is that not pulling that group to the left?
Wake me up when something, even the slightest pittance, is actually achieved in the DSA's policy, because the DSA as an organization has not moved left until its policy is affected.
That's just a minor quantitative change. There's no qualitative change.
I mean, tut tutting israel is actually pulling them left- it used to be a lot worse, and there is value in having DSA not be actively zionist. It isn't like DSA is tut tutting but then also shipping bombs to Israel.
It isn't like DSA is tut tutting but then also shipping bombs to Israel.
The DSA is tut-tutting Israel and then campaigning for the Dems, who are shipping bombs to Israel.
How do you stop the right factions from doing that? Stay out of the fight because the right factions are terrible? Like, 2/5s of the DSA right now is a way of deradicalizing folks back into supporting the democrats. It used to be almost all of the DSA, like how CPUSA is captured by democrats.
I think people are disillusioned by bourgeoise democracy and don't understand that the DSA has an actual democracy because they see DSA being shitty and assume it is irrevocably captured. The right faction aren't that connected to the democrats, it is more of a "notice me senpai" relationship where some of the leadership want NGO positions, and the right leadership's hold of their membership is really tenuous because they aren't actually invested in organizing their membership, they're interested in mobilizing to prove that they're good mobilizers to democrats, putting them at a massive long term disadvantage which we're exploiting.
Stop putting c/the_dunk_tank content in the wrong comm
Not that I can tell, what did you think of the article?
It's interesting how you only draw comparisons with CPUSA. You claim that it has "the most potential to be the groundwork for a future party." I would contend, however, that the
is a current party that people can organize with today.You're Marxist Leninists, yet you do not organize under the principles of democratic centralism. Why not? Do you intend to somehow transform the DSA into a democratic centralist organization? Do you really believe that the liberals, social democrats, and democratic socialists that comprise most of the DSA would just go along with that? You can't expect to just take the existing membership of the DSA and magically convert them into a committed Marxist Leninist cadre.
As it stands, the DSA are not principled anti-imperialists, as evidenced by their failure to take a principled stance in support of Palestinian resistance in the wake of Al-Aqsa Flood, or their anti-communist stances on Cuba and AES. This isn't a "past" issue, it's ongoing. How do you address that? Why is it the "correct" strategy to attempt entryism into the DSA instead of joining a real, existing Marxist Leninist party?
Genuine question, I spent time with CPUSA and DSA, and still will go to events if they align with my values, but have largely found that the membership are primarily liberals who are very socially progressive, but ultimately only really care about domestic policy. Is the PSL considered more serious? I felt burned by the other two, but want to still be involved in local efforts where I can.
The PSL places a very high importance on anti-imperialism, and members are required to hold principled anti-imperialist stances and not be libs/regurgitate state department propaganda. This is demonstrated by the fact that the PSL (in coalition with other groups like PYM) were organizing protests in support of Palestinian resistance on October 8th while many other orgs are still arguing over whether to condemn Hamas to this day.
Check out FRSO if they're active where you live. We're explicitly ML and small but cool
Oh wait did you actually end up joining FRSO? That's dope! How's it been so far?
Good so far! I got a call from national leadership right away, who put me in touch with local leadership. I went to a general membership meeting and I'm meeting again today with someone to work through the theory study packet for new members. Everyone seems cool and communist, which is what I was looking for
Hell yeah, that's fucking awesome. I hope y'all do very well and that one day our movements are able to join together, either by forming a unity party or by struggling together officially. I've seen what you say on here and I have to say that I trust you when you say if it's working out and good then it's working out extremely well and is very good.
Yeah, in my experience across the board the PSL is a robust and ideologically coherent party with an incredibly engaged membership. Biased though, as this experience is colored by my experiences working as a member of the party. I think that one should join whatever principled and (importantly!) effective ML org in their area, but I'm happy to say that for me and my area it fills this role exactly.
Has Trot roots, but generally works as a regular Marxist-Leninist party now. Same with Workers World Party and a few others. They're cool now.
They support AES and anti-imperialist movements. Not "trots" in the same way those wreckers are.
I guess I haven't been particularly impressed by PSL from the outside? It seems like they put a lot of effort into presidential runs and that doesn't seem like a very good use of time?
At the local level, DSA folks are active in local Palestinian stuff, we see PSL folks at actions but we don't see them integrating as much into the logistics or trying to elevate the struggle. We see them agitating and mobilizing but not doing a good job organizing, and maybe that is because they keep it entirely internal but I'd expect to see more local PSL folks integrated by now if that was happening.
You're Marxist Leninists, yet you do not organize under the principles of democratic centralism.
??? Has red star said they aren't demcent?
Why not? Do you intend to somehow transform the DSA into a democratic centralist organization? Do you really believe that the liberals, social democrats, and democratic socialists that comprise most of the DSA would just go along with that? You can't expect to just take the existing membership of the DSA and magically convert them into a committed Marxist Leninist cadre.
I don't think you can magically make them MLs, but over the last few years DSA has moved significantly left, it can absolutely be made into a non-cringe org
As it stands, the DSA are not principled anti-imperialists, as evidenced by their failure to take a principled stance in support of Palestinian resistance in the wake of Al-Aqsa Flood, or their anti-communist stances on Cuba and AES. This isn't a "past" issue, it's ongoing. How do you address that? Why is it the "correct" strategy to attempt entryism into the DSA instead of joining a real, existing Marxist Leninist party?
I think the natural momentum of DSA is toward it being a more reliably anti-imperialist org, and I think it is worthwhile to add to it.
But on a more practical level, if in my local area there are more DSA folks engaged in pro-Palestinian actions than there even are PSL folks total, why would I join PSL? What practical advantages are gained by moving the pro-Palestine folks out of DSA?
It seems like they put a lot of effort into presidential runs and that doesn't seem like a very good use of time?
The presidential runs aren't an attempt to gain power by being elected to office. They are a propaganda campaign to spread a socialist platform. The campaign process itself is an opportunity to have tens or hundreds of thousands of conversations about our socialist platform. The amount of votes in the election are an interesting metric, but not a key objective.
we see PSL folks at actions but we don't see them integrating as much into the logistics or trying to elevate the struggle.
This is actually absurd. The PSL has been organizing in the struggle for Palestinian liberation for decades. They were organizing demonstrations on October 8th while almost everyone else was still condemning Hamas. They've organized like 5 mass protests on Washington. I don't know what your local scene looks like, but the PSL is the most important socialist org that is organizing for Palestinian liberation on a national scale.
The presidential runs aren't an attempt to gain power by being elected to office. They are a propaganda campaign to spread a socialist platform. The campaign process itself is an opportunity to have tens or hundreds of thousands of conversations about our socialist platform. The amount of votes in the election are an interesting metric, but not a key objective.
This still seems like a waste of time? Why not do something that can allow for conversations and also might have utility outside of allowing for conversations?
The DSA isn't, and I don't think they ever will be.
Is PSL actually demcent though? Is it true that up to 40 percent of the delegates are picked by the central committee? https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/6/mode/2up
How can you engage in demcent when the highest body can pick 40 percent of the delegates? That sounds like a recipe for bureaucratic ossification?
This is actually absurd. The PSL has been organizing in the struggle for Palestinian liberation for decades. They were organizing demonstrations on October 8th while the DSA was still condemning Hamas. They've organized like 5 mass protests on Washington. I don't know what your local scene looks like, but if you're weighing the relative importance of the PSL and the DSA in the national struggle for Palestinian liberation, it's the PSL and it's not even close.
All I can speak to is my local conditions, and my local conditions are we have two PSL folks who think passing out PSL stickers at protests is worthwhile but going to planning meetings isn't. We're trying to get folks to think more strategically, about what they're trying to accomplish and how to meet those goals, and it feels like PSL is just interested in shallowly engaging for recruitment.
That's a shame that your local branch isn't very effective, my experience in a branch that's been growing's been far more positive. At the very least though, to share, the recruitment isn't for shallow purposes.
The focus on recruitment is because the point of a practical socialist party like the PSL isn't to simply subsume all struggle into itself, this would be absurd, but instead to act as a unifying organ for those who already dedicate time in the community. This can be the reason behind the focus on recruitment, as essentially, there are tons of socialists and socialist-friendly folks who put together critical movements and orgs locally who, on becoming a member of the PSL, can have their work and effort boosted by being able to rely on other comrades within the party and the political education programs it provides. Overcoming this friction of low local membership at first though is pretty difficult, and likely why it just seems like two folks handing out stickers for now, but, I can't really say, just my experience.
I guess it might be an issue of locality- I feel like I can get access to experienced socialist organizers for free, and I can take part in and advance the quality of poli-ed for free? Like, you can read Lenin and Fanon in a group and not pay 200 dollars a month for it, you know?
They were heavily involved in the Red Line protests in Washington DC. I'd be curious to know if DSA/Red Star or if CPUSA was involved in organizing for that protest. Or any of the other anti-genocide protests in the last few months.
Oh PSL has been a lot better than DSA nationals at organizing large protests, totally. I have other problems with PSL, from their election structure to how my local PSL seems to operate, which is were I'd be spending the overwhelming amount of my time if I were to hop orgs.
Did you write this article?
I haven't read it yet, but just curious given the other reply here.
Communists belong in the objective left wing of fascism. Yeah, okay. Good. Cool.
Wasn't that one of Stalin's rare L's though? Social democrats can move in either direction, some of them shot rosa, some of them fought nazis and joined in the post ww2 socialist coalition governments and were integrated with the communists. (Czechoslovakia comes to mind) How many hexbears started out as social democrats during Bernie 2016?
You're looking at it as though it's Calvinism. Stalin's statement is about where the ideology of social democracy fits into the framework of class struggle, not about how everyone who at any point identifies as socdem has the soul of a fascist and has never and will never do anything worthwhile. The point of his statement is that the purpose social democracy serves is the maintenance of capitalism and therefore that people working towards social-democratic ends are working on maintaining capitalism (which is also the job of fascism and fascists, though they accomplish it differently and under different circumstances).
That individual socdems radicalized or fought in self-defense or whatever has no bearing on the statement. What matters for it is that the socdem organization of the SPD, on the eve of revolution, chose to protect capitalism (even though many of its own members objected), demonstrating how even those smol bean well-meaning SPD members who just didn't appreciate Rosa's message until her corpse was dumped in the river nonetheless had been working towards the benefit and promotion of just the organization responsible for it.
Stalin joining the allies also has no bearing on this. It fails to comprehend the difference between ideological conflict and political conflict. What Stalin was drawing were the lines of ideological conflict, which is vindicated a thousand times over by the US, Britain, etc. materially supporting Nazi Germany up until the latter's expansionism put it and the various liberal states into political conflict. Because of this political conflict, it made sense to ally in the war with these liberal states, but that by no means made them somehow fellow-travelers, as demonstrated by how the US didn't even wait until the end of the war to start making barbaric plays in the interest of checking the power of the Soviet Union.
This exactly. As I've indicated in other parts of the thread, the primary problem of the moment is that of political education. This whole thread is an absolute testament to that. Everybody is so excited to share the good news of communism without having a complex understanding of a non-memyfied version of it. People mistake entertainment (especially shit-postimg) for education.
Perhaps I am a dour nerd in a corner on this, but I am fine with that, it won't be the first or last time.
The important thing is to use it as an opportunity to educate and not just bemoan lacking education (not that you did that, I saw some of you talking about things constructively).
TBF folks are out here being Calvinists in this thread to individual succdems.
But yeah, I agree, don't join social democratic orgs. But DSA isn't a social democrat org, it sure is contested by them, but the majority of the NPC is a mixture of communists of varying levels of good.
TBF folks are out here being Calvinists in this thread to individual succdems.
Then it's a good thing I would never equate Stalin, for whatever faults he might have had, with a bunch of memelords on a shitposting website.
DSA isn’t a social democrat org
It absolutely is. A few individual self-identified communists in leadership positions of an org founded on social democracy with explicitly anticommunist bylaws that historically and currently pursues an exclusively social democratic strategy don't change the character of the organization. The character of the organization is determined by the actions it takes.
There's a huge difference between personal politics and organizational politics. There's massive inertia and the fact that it's by definition a democratic socialist organization.
There's value in joining if there's no other org you can be a part of, or maybe to poach people, but you'll never drive them significantly left.
There is massive inertia, and the NPC is currently minority social democrat. The problem is Trotskyists with shitty third camp opinions making up the deciding votes, which is a better situation than a previously social democrat led org, and you know, those folks can be further pushed as they see the consequences of their actions not work out as they hoped. They're not mustache twirling villians, they're just wrong.
And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren't paying attention, and shouldn't be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn't be trusted.
Fuck socdems, but I feel like you're ignoring that not everyone is in your age cohort and experiencing things with the context you were. Also, like, politically disengaged people absolutely should be a target of agitation, what the hell are you talking about?
That doesn't mean I need to caucus with them or consider them my allies, like people in the DSA often do.
idk, I can totally see DSA members becoming disengaged just like I can see Dem voters becoming disengaged (but I repeat myself). It's a natural reaction to putting effort in and not getting anywhere, and the DSA has a long history of not getting anywhere and just diverting energy into the Democratic machine or whatever. I think my original statement stands.
Fair enough. My original statements are incorrect then. But my opinion on the DSA and engaging politically with the DSA remains unchanged.
And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren't paying attention, and shouldn't be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn't be trusted.
What percent of the US population is currently beyond social democrat? We don't have to win over most people, but we have to win over some people to socialism. Like, IDK, a couple percent? I trust them less if they learn now than if they learned a while ago, but it is still worth educating folks. I've seen some folks really change for the better in the time I've been in DSA.
Then win them over in an actual communist organization while improving your own understanding of revolutionary theory? Join the PSL. Trying to convince comrades who are not currently active in political organizations to salt the DSA is a massive waste of time. This is bad theory.
If you are already in the DSA and already have connections there, then there is little harm in trying to push them further left, but you should ALSO be seeking a party that is ACTUALLY in line with your ACTUAL values. You are literally fighting against senior members and an anti-communist culture with decades of entrenchment, and to believe that you can change that is also hopelessly naive. The DSA is not a bottom-up organization, the bottom is purposefully disorganized.
THE PSL isn't capable of doing demcent or scientific socialism if this is correct? https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/6/mode/2up
The central committee being able to select up to 40 percent of delegates means it's going to be inflexible and less capable of developing in the long term, even if it starting from a better ideological position.
We are not at the point where flexibility is needed, we are at a point where incredibly basic political education is needed. You are literally making excuses not to join an actual communist organization, when the DSA does not, and can never, actually resemble a communist organization.
I am more concerned about long term development- not having democracy isn't conducive to scientific socialism, and you aren't demcent without the dem.
Stalin himself would go on to ally with governments to the right of social democracies in order to fight actual fascists. It's absolutely an L that he lumped them all in together as basically the same. It's also absurd to be so dogmatic about a comment made 100 years ago in a wildly different political and material context.
How many hexbears started out as social democrats during Bernie 2016?
At the end of the day, these are people who've taken a concrete step left of the Democratic Party. We should be convincing them to take more steps, not calling them fascists.
Okay, but consider ceding the terrain where the baby social democrats and socialists congregate to groundwork and SMC because social democrats are annoying? : P Then we'd be able to hang out in the cool kids club without having to constantly explain ourselves to the semi-organized masses, which communists, as you know, hate doing.
Nope, although some caucuses have published stuff like this: https://redstarcaucus.org/cuban-links/ and the international committee is establishing guidelines for future trips to prevent the same nonsense from happening. We should apologize but Cuba also understands that DSA is a big tent org with some shitty folks in it.
DSA communist paper says communists should join DSA. In other news red flags are indeed red.
Okay, so I read the article. But I have to say I've really enjoyed the back-and-forth between you and others supporting the PSL. Besides being fun
, it is genuinely enlightening so I want to thank you for participating in the discussion.I have to admit I also have an anti-DSA bias because of bad experiences with DSA I've had myself, but I also know good people that were heavily involved in DSA and eventually got burned. So I appreciate the work of trying to push it further to the Left and to accept a more Communist guideline. I can especially appreciate since sometimes it's the only Leftist game in town for some areas, so it isn't totally meaningless to push, in my opinion. And I don't really know as much about PSL but I do have a tendency to think that if Communists can that they should join a Marxist-Leninist Party.
Whether that should necessarily be PSL or another Party, I don't know. And your critique about the Central Committee choosing 40% of the delegates is a good one, I can also see how a desire to maintain the direction and ideology of a relatively new Communist organization requires some suspension of democracy. But undoing the liberal concept of "democracy" is something I've mentioned recently before is something I've been working on myself, I think sometimes a Communist Party doesn't need to be fully democratic if it's defending or implementing proper Communist ideology. On the other hand, I also don't know if I would personally want to join some Party where my position and contribution is less important and meaningful in the face of bureaucratism. Maybe that's my own ego I also need to work on, and I wouldn't want to be Party Leader or anything, but I do see value in seeing and feeling your work going into something that wasn't already decided for you.
Anyway, interesting post so thanks for posting and discussing!
I think democracy is important for non-ego reasons- scientific socialism works better within an internal democracy, democratic consultation and deliberation create institutional knowledge in a way bureaucracies don't.
I don't see any reasonable benefit to PSL not being democratic at this stage of the struggle- if they don't have the educational capacity to onboard new members they should create probation membership status (less ideal but those membership dues though) or stagger cohorts.
You're not wrong. I do think provisional membership or something would be better than just allowing as many people in as possible and not letting it actually be democratic, but I also think there may be conditions where what PSL is doing would be right.
But communists can already canvass for the Democrats in the CPUSA. What is the point of them joining the DSA?
Doing things besides canvassing for democrats? Lots of chapters aren't interested in being a dog for the democratic party, and the national vibes are growing more skeptical as evidence mounts against the viability of change through democrats.
after the revolution, begging the revolutionary gen alpha-ers to just shoot me instead of sentencing me to a late 2010s DSA convention roleplay
