Like? Is anyone who starts a war a “war criminal” now?
If it’s because Russia’s killed civilians (whether intentionally or just because they didn’t care enough in pursuit of their military objectives), then, like, isn’t basically every Western leader + Biden a “war criminal”? How would you ever create a standard that could include him but not others?
And if they are all “war criminals” then why would you support one over the other? I don’t get this conversation.
And even if you had to, like, in what world would it make sense to think that Putin is worse than Netanyahu or the Western leaders who arm and support him?
in absolutely no way is he worse than Netanyahu or western leaders, but initating a war of invasion (even when provoked by encirclement) is a pretty by-the-books war crime
Not saying this is in any way comparable to the current state of affairs, but it's very easy to support one side in a war in which they're both war criminals. Just because both sides are doing things defined as war crimes doesn't make their goals unjust.
Like the Allies in WW2, the Red Army in the Russian Civil War, the Vietcong in Vietnam, etc.
The allies were absolutely unjust. They were defending the genocidal British empire. Then they were doing colonialism in west, middle, and east Asia. West Asia here being the backwater European peninsula where the allies took land from displaced jews and gave it to German people. They were a rogue faction using weapons of mass destruction to ensure favorable trade positions post war.
....and Chinese communists, the Chinese Nationalists, the precursors to the NVA and Vietcong, Mexico, the Korean resistance, the Filipino resistance, Brazil, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Haiti, etc.
It's a blind spot in people's understanding of WWII. The Allies was more than just France, the US, UK, and USSR. It included dozens of countries across the world, especially in Asia where the war started.
First we fought a war against them, which was good given the lack of alternatives to prevent genocide in greater areas, then we forgave everything and kept those people in power, which was horrible.
You forgot about us supporting them before that. The big nazi rally in new York. All the US businesses getting nice contracts with them. Honestly if it wasn't for Japan I really feel like we might not have really gotten in the war.
Well, I wasn't talking exclusively about the US, but sure, I get your point.
The difference between a war criminal and a strong leader, in the eyes of the US political leadership, is only the difference between disobedience and obedience to American government policy. And American government policy is set by Wall Street.
then, like, isn’t basically every Western leader a “war criminal”
Honestly, I think the best approach one can take in response to hypocritical liberals is yeah, Putin's an asshole war criminal, but sadly the west and NATO are even asshole war criminaler.
War crimes are for those who lost the war. (But incidentally, on humanitarian wave, striking civilian infrastructure like power plants in ukraine is a warcrime; nato won in serbia, so that was okay) There is reality of warcrimes (something as written in books, everyone does it), and reality of proven warcrimes (something written by the victors in history books)
I mean as a leftie, sure he is a warcriminal, same as biden and scholz and starmer and cheney and bush and obama and blaire and de gaulle and mitterand etc
Pretty sure 99% of global presidents were and are war criminals
You kinda answered your own question.
then, like, isn’t basically every Western leader + Biden a “war criminal”?
First of all, it comes down to how you define what a war crime actually is and that needs to be pinned down with whoever you're talking to if there is any hope of having a meaningful conversation. Depending on the specifics of the definition, it's not necessarily that Putin isn't one but rather his crimes are so small and petty compared to every single NATO country leader, any leader involved in (for example) the Iraq war, and basically any leader that has taken part in colonialism or US imperialism. Hell, just the sanctions on Iraq before the last war are much greater crimes causing much more civilian suffering and death than anything that Russia (as led by Putin) has done in Ukraine.
To make the term meaningful, I actually don't think Putin should be included under the umbrella. The way Russia has conducted this war is actually astounding in how careful they have been to not cause civilian casualties. I forget the actual statistic here but the civilian deaths caused by the "shock and awe" of the US bombing of Iraqi infrastructure in the first 2 weeks of the Iraq war took something like 6 months or more in Ukraine to reach that same number. Through most of the conflict, Russia deliberately kept Ukrainian infrastructure intact. And fucking Netanyahu? Israel is openly mass murdering children and targeting hospitals and aid workers. They are conducting a visible, unambiguous, full scale genocide. It doesn't get more "war criminal" than that. Anyone, even among hardcore Russia hater libs that say Putin is a war criminal but Netanyahu is not are beyond fucking deluded. They aren't just deeply unserious, they're profoundly flippant.
Anyone, even among hardcore Russia hater libs that say Putin is a war criminal but Netanyahu is not are beyond fucking deluded.
How many blue MAGA libs (your everyday citizens, not the politicians) hold this view? In my experience, the usual lib line is that Israel is committing a genocide because Netanyahu is running it, but that everything would be just fine if some good wholesome Israeli was in charge instead. They don't even acknowledge that Israel is a settler colony and that that's the root of the issue, let alone the fact that this genocide spans eight decades; they just vibe with great man theory and hope Netanyadomort gets replaced while nothing else fundamentally changes.
The reasoning for Putin, specifically, being a supposed war criminal has to so with orphaned children in Mariupol being inducted into Russian care and fostering. Technically, this does qualify as genocide under the geneva conventions, quite explicitly.
However. Considering the history, and special hatred the Ukrainian nazi paramilitary groups had for the Russian populace of Mariupol, it's not surprising Russia wasn't just going to hand orphaned kids back to their parents tormentors.
Of course, any one who has been watching these western captured international legal institutions over the last few years know what they are for: moral othering of anyone suffering from western imperialism, not impartial justice.
what world would it make sense to think that Putin is worse than Netanyahu or the Western leaders who arm and support him?
Propaganda is a hell of a drug
Wow everybody here is saying yes he is. Worst Russian propagandists ever.
i think it's fine to say that they're all war criminals. i think "no war but class war" if truly held can lead one to a correct anti-imperialist politics.
