Chapotony Chatano here, internet's busiest hogposter, and it's time for another edition of "Let's Argue", where we're on the internet, we accept your hot takes, unpopular opinions, and tough questions, and we struggle sesh over all of them. Leeeeet's, GO!
Cops are working class. They are also class traitors
Pro athletes and celebs are petit bougie or bougie. Some are class traitors.
deleted by creator
they do that simultaneously tho
deleted by creator
Most pro athletes don't make a lot of money. You can be a pro athlete and still just make enough to get by. Being a pro athlete only means that being an athlete is how you get your money. Most of them aren't the ones you see on TV, like players in the minor leagues. Even most fighters who are on TV barely make any money.
Even if you're in the NFL, you just have a few years to make money until your body and brain are destroyed and you have no way of making money after that. Plus, they've been working for free (as slaves, pretty much) on college teams before that.
I mean, yeah, minor league players and college players are exploited workers. But anyone in the NFL makes more than enough to survive forever and never have to work. It's similar to workers becoming managers or starting a business. Most fail, but once you make the transition, you arent a worker!
Pro athletes are weird. They’re really well compensated workers, but they don’t technically own their own means of production, being the field, the team, or the networks.
Yes, but they make enough that they very, very quickly amass enough Capital to be bourgeoisie. People who apologize for them are just too wrapped up in social justice signalling to do a real class analysis
Take into account that many ruin their bodies with it and acquire no skills for any other employment. Millions of dollar are a lot of money, but if you get irreversible braindamage, worn down joints and no other skills except running fast/being good at sport X it's not absurd. It kinda has to last the rest of your life. This of course doesn't apply to LeBron James or Lionel Messi, but to the hundreds of not-as-famous players. Pro football is especially egregious due to the violent, body contact heavy nature.
Yes, but at a certain point, you don't HAVE to sell your labor to survive. If Bill Gates gets a job at Walmart for fun, he's not suddenly "working class". Most Fortune 500 executives still work, but they have enough money that they will never starve if they just decided to stop.
But not all choose to become bourgeoisie. Some donate a ridiculous amount, or spend it all on consumption.
No, I think we need to concede that it is possible for them to be good. They are being paid outrageous sums of money, but they are being paid to do work and they need to work very hard. The vast, vast majority of them will be terrible because wealth itself is a mental disease that strips you of emotion, and just try to imagine how much easier it would be to fall for liberal/libertarian/conservative propaganda if you never had to worry about money... But even when rich, I think they typically equate wealth to work. I think that this is fertile ground for class traitors. Most of them will be awful, but if someone seems good, don't dismiss that right away.
Yeah, they're fertile ground but it's important to remember that once they get that wealth, they are NOT working class anymore.
Absolutely. They are still workers though. If they could be properly shown the interests of the true bourgeoisie, some of them (far from all) would be truly disgusted because their entire lives around working every waking hour to get better at one thing. If the veil is truly lifted and they see that they are working for people that earn more and think that they shouldn't have to do anything for it, they could be radicalized for real. All their pride and self-worth is wrapped up in the considerable work they have had to do to get where they are. Show them someone who thinks they should earn more than them without doing any work and they could genuinly hate them for it.
We sure shouldn't expect them to be good though. That way only madness lies.
Do athletes with sponsorships maybe own the means of production... kind of?
No, they’re still selling their labor to capitalists. The means aren’t their muscles, tendons, etc., the means are the physical spaces and less physical organizations that enable the game. If the NFL was a essentially a union and all the teams and stadiums were owned equally by players and coaches as cooperatives, then they would own the means of production.
I was thinking of sponsorships as a side hustle, and they're maybe, like, the equivalent of handicraftsmen just when it comes to their side hustle. They're creating something (coolness), and selling it to a company while not having any employees to exploit.
For the rest of their work, they're definitely workers imo.
deleted by creator
Cops salaries very widely. Outside of major cities, they rarely crack 6 figures.
Refinery techs and mercenaries are working class until they amass enough Capital to be bourgeoisie. The difference between those jobs and say a doctor is that being a mercenary or a refinery worker fucking sucks and is dirty and dangerous. Being a doctor means you're well loved, and it's a lot more fulfilling and gentler o etall
Part of the appeal of those jobs to working class kids is that it's a way to join the bourgeoisie. These are some of the biggest shitheads because they push the "anyone can do it" bootstraps narrative.
deleted by creator
I don't think this is correct when you factor in promotions, overtime, court pay, etc.
Pro athletes are very obviously workers. At least until they get paid enough to start owning businesses.