The sparrows were considered a pest and the policy to exterminate them was clearly a bad one, but you know what? Trying to exterminate pests that you see eating your food and having it backfire isn't exactly a deliberate crime against humanity. Compare with capitalism which actually is implicated by famines of greed like Bengal and Ireland.
Why did the US exterminate the buffalo? Were they eating your food? Were you trying to increase the food supply when you were doing it? Or were you trying to starve an entire continent of people so you could kick over their last dying armies and fertilize your crops with their remains?
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out. This was reprehensible.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest. Neither ghengis (or the many other conquesting leaders of China, including mao) or Jackson are alive now, so their actions are historical in nature.
The difference is china did that to their own people, through incompetence, not though land acquisition.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Especially since the four pests campaign occurred less than 100 years ago.
Also great whataboutism, I never claimed america was the gold standard, only that china and the Soviet union certainly don't own the crown.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Man I'm sorry you had to see that bastard demonstrate how much of an irredeemable piece of shit he is. America is a demonic state built on stolen land, may it be destroyed and the land returned to the original owners, the indigenous peoples.
Can't get any more based than that. Infinite respect for you and your organization's bravery in struggling against such a horrible fucking country. Truly inspirational!
You're arguing with somebody who's employing the classic fascist "but the communists killed THEIR OWN people, it's less bad to murder people from a racial outgroup" trope. That's literally what they said. They claim to be an anarchist, yet their point hinges on a pure "blood and soil" reasoning, where genocide is just "land accquisition". Absolute Generalplan Ost hours in that post.
Yes, and then you did apologetics for a genocide by claiming it wasn't as bad because the victims weren't citizens of the state doing the genocide, which is:
Obviously I believe in nation states, have you looked out the window? The earth is covered with them holy shit. Doesn't mean I think america is "clean" or something.
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out.
the colonization of america is the greatest act of genocide through all of human history. saying the native americans were just 'driven out' is fucking demonic. then again, i guess by your logic it's fine, since the europeans weren't killing 'their own' people
It is straight up fascist ideology to speak about violence and conquest as being innate human traits and the natural order of history. It's fucking wrong, by the way. And likewise this talk of human life being worth differently if it's "one of your own people" versus an "other" being killed.
wHaTaBouTiSM
The cynicism with which your accusations are made is fair criticism.
Do you not understand a difference between evaluating the merit of a national project in general and, within the context of evaluating one such project, prioritizing the moral importance of that country's own people over humanity in general?
Put another way, giving moral priority to citizens and considering the butchering of "non-citizens" a lesser crime (even when those people were citizens who had their citizenship stripped away from them) is reactionary. Practical priority is a little different because logistical limitations are real, but these people are just excusing literal ethnic cleansing.
they aren't a paragon of social justice or elevating the masses
Very rich coming from a "person" who minimized one of the worst racially motivated settler colonial genocides in the history of crackers so he could mental gymnasticize "China le bad" for internet points.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Literal fascist talking point, and baby-level understanding of history.
You'd do well to remember that Mao never fought outside of China.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest.
Congratulations, you know 1 fact about Asian history. Meanwhile, 90% of Chinese live in lands that were part of the Han state, 1500 years before Genghis.
No one here is saying that Communist China or the USSR didn't make mistakes. If you compare them to the west, the difference is that after the first 30 years, you no longer had famines in the socialist countries. The capitalist countries, however, still had famines an embarrassing length of time after their founding- although some of that was deliberate colonial violence like the Winston Churchill administration stealing and withholding grain from Bengal as redundant strategic reserves, and killing 5 million people in just a few years.
If you see history as anything more than a collection of random facts, you can apply patterns to things that you can draw conclusions from- like "socialist states have vastly outperformed capitalist states in terms of relative development and improvements in general welfare".
First, yeah, sure, Mongolians saw things through modern Euro-centric racism to say "we are all the same, there are no Mongolians or Chinese, only backwards Asians". Second, your defense of Native American genocide basically boils down to "your honor, we didn't consider them human when we genocided them"
I don't understand your first point. Are you suggesting the ghengis khan's conquest was informed by "euro-centric" learnings or influence? I'll need a source on that.
Re the second point I wasn't claiming anyone was or wasn't human, I was indicating that expansionist conquest occured in an era of expansionist conquest. A trait not solely owned by Europeans/Americans. China has a massive history of conflict along ethnic and tribal lines, and a massive history of conquest too.
Conquest, war and "dehumanization" is evidenced by their borders, everyone's borders, everywhere. Throughout history.
The post was very clearly saying that Ghengis Khan and the post-Mongolian Chinese state is a worse form of conquest and murder because they were conquering and killing their own people.
But the US was killing Native Americans which weren't citizens, so it is not as bad as killing your own people like the Mongolian/Chinese/Mao.
Uh, ghengis Khan certainly killed a lot of non mongols. He pretty strongly justified the conquest on such terms. (that, and loyalty/fealty). Many leaders through time did.
All that said, consider football.
A point is a point, but an own goal stings worse. Not because the opposing players are subhuman, but you were supposed to do best by your own.
Bloodthirsty racist crackers using muh football rules to explain why America being born from a genocide of over 56 million people "wasn't that bad akshually":
I was referring to "soccer" but you do you.
I've repeatedly made clear that Andrew Jackson, and America at large are "bad, akshually".
The whole point is that china is "bad, akshually". TOO. Tge whole thing I ever replied to was on that point, America was brought up to me, as a whataboutism.
For those in the back: Andrew Jackson was a genocidal monster.
Where are all the sparrows, tankie?
Where are all the Native Americans, dronie?
The sparrows were considered a pest and the policy to exterminate them was clearly a bad one, but you know what? Trying to exterminate pests that you see eating your food and having it backfire isn't exactly a deliberate crime against humanity. Compare with capitalism which actually is implicated by famines of greed like Bengal and Ireland.
Why did the US exterminate the buffalo? Were they eating your food? Were you trying to increase the food supply when you were doing it? Or were you trying to starve an entire continent of people so you could kick over their last dying armies and fertilize your crops with their remains?
The native Americans were not seen as citizens at that time. They were driven out. This was reprehensible.
Fyi this is how all territory, on the planet, was acquired.
Remember ghengis Khan? The whole shape of China is the result of MASSIVE imperialism and conquest. Neither ghengis (or the many other conquesting leaders of China, including mao) or Jackson are alive now, so their actions are historical in nature.
The difference is china did that to their own people, through incompetence, not though land acquisition.
Be clear: I'm not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
Especially since the four pests campaign occurred less than 100 years ago.
Also great whataboutism, I never claimed america was the gold standard, only that china and the Soviet union certainly don't own the crown.
https://alphahistory.com/chineserevolution/a-soviet-scientist-on-the-four-pests-campaign-1964/
Edit: "lol ghengis Khan old" yeah, he's dead and so are his "voters". So is Andrew Jackson and his "voters".
Edit edit: don't decry me for being "jingoistic" in a thread where I called a guy out for simping for a nation state in the first place.
Memory holing Covid already
Lmao great point
As someone with a lot of indigenous family friends and comrades I sincerely hope you get in the fucking pit
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone This is the kind of shit you are cool with? Seriously?
Like this user is literally justifying genocide.
Man I'm sorry you had to see that bastard demonstrate how much of an irredeemable piece of shit he is. America is a demonic state built on stolen land, may it be destroyed and the land returned to the original owners, the indigenous peoples.
We're actually building an organization to do just that.
Can't get any more based than that. Infinite respect for you and your organization's bravery in struggling against such a horrible fucking country. Truly inspirational!
We are traveling the red road and doing our best to fulfill the vision set out by Crazy Horse.
The red nation will rise from the ashes of this forsaken empire.
Your cause is righteous, the enemy will be defeated, victory will be yours!
intentional genocide is far, far worse. and every legal system recognizes this. it's literally the difference between manslaughter and murder.
You're arguing with somebody who's employing the classic fascist "but the communists killed THEIR OWN people, it's less bad to murder people from a racial outgroup" trope. That's literally what they said. They claim to be an anarchist, yet their point hinges on a pure "blood and soil" reasoning, where genocide is just "land accquisition". Absolute Generalplan Ost hours in that post.
oh I know, just trying to get them to acknowledge the fact
Used as a retort to a "Soviet Russia and china saved the world" comment.
Yes, and then you did apologetics for a genocide by claiming it wasn't as bad because the victims weren't citizens of the state doing the genocide, which is:
No, I indicated that conquest happened. I never ever supported it.
Conquest happened on every square meter of land on this planet.
I also indicated an own-goal is fucking embarrassing,
And if you don't care about that, an own goal of that magnitude takes one out of the running for "elevating the world" or whatever.
No one is a hero, no one is forgiven. All nation states are trash, some just do trash special.
The only way this makes sense is if you believe in the concept of the nation-state.
Obviously I believe in nation states, have you looked out the window? The earth is covered with them holy shit. Doesn't mean I think america is "clean" or something.
You should ask your parents about that
Soviet Russia did save the world. Did you forget about World War 2?
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the colonization of america is the greatest act of genocide through all of human history. saying the native americans were just 'driven out' is fucking demonic. then again, i guess by your logic it's fine, since the europeans weren't killing 'their own' people
As someone with many comrades from the Lakota and Navajo nations and more I cannot express how fucking mad I am right now about this whole thing.
I would commit unspeakable acts of violence on these motherfuckers if they said any of this to my face.
I'm pretty sure it was simply a gentlemen's agreement where the native peoples decided to make space for the colonists by moving out of the way /s
It is straight up fascist ideology to speak about violence and conquest as being innate human traits and the natural order of history. It's fucking wrong, by the way. And likewise this talk of human life being worth differently if it's "one of your own people" versus an "other" being killed.
The cynicism with which your accusations are made is fair criticism.
The prioritization of the importance of "their own people" is transparently jingoistic thinking that you are just glossing over
I replied to someone simping for a nation state. Pot, kettle.
Do you not understand a difference between evaluating the merit of a national project in general and, within the context of evaluating one such project, prioritizing the moral importance of that country's own people over humanity in general?
Put another way, giving moral priority to citizens and considering the butchering of "non-citizens" a lesser crime (even when those people were citizens who had their citizenship stripped away from them) is reactionary. Practical priority is a little different because logistical limitations are real, but these people are just excusing literal ethnic cleansing.
Actions China undertook as well. Arguably still undertaking.
Point being they aren't a paragon of social justice or elevating the masses.
Which is why I replied in the first place.
Very rich coming from a "person" who minimized one of the worst racially motivated settler colonial genocides in the history of crackers so he could mental gymnasticize "China le bad" for internet points.
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Don't forget the gnats dude
Literal fascist talking point, and baby-level understanding of history.
You'd do well to remember that Mao never fought outside of China.
Congratulations, you know 1 fact about Asian history. Meanwhile, 90% of Chinese live in lands that were part of the Han state, 1500 years before Genghis.
No one here is saying that Communist China or the USSR didn't make mistakes. If you compare them to the west, the difference is that after the first 30 years, you no longer had famines in the socialist countries. The capitalist countries, however, still had famines an embarrassing length of time after their founding- although some of that was deliberate colonial violence like the Winston Churchill administration stealing and withholding grain from Bengal as redundant strategic reserves, and killing 5 million people in just a few years.
If you see history as anything more than a collection of random facts, you can apply patterns to things that you can draw conclusions from- like "socialist states have vastly outperformed capitalist states in terms of relative development and improvements in general welfare".
First, yeah, sure, Mongolians saw things through modern Euro-centric racism to say "we are all the same, there are no Mongolians or Chinese, only backwards Asians". Second, your defense of Native American genocide basically boils down to "your honor, we didn't consider them human when we genocided them"
I don't understand your first point. Are you suggesting the ghengis khan's conquest was informed by "euro-centric" learnings or influence? I'll need a source on that.
Re the second point I wasn't claiming anyone was or wasn't human, I was indicating that expansionist conquest occured in an era of expansionist conquest. A trait not solely owned by Europeans/Americans. China has a massive history of conflict along ethnic and tribal lines, and a massive history of conquest too.
Conquest, war and "dehumanization" is evidenced by their borders, everyone's borders, everywhere. Throughout history.
No one is clean, and no one is a hero.
The post was very clearly saying that Ghengis Khan and the post-Mongolian Chinese state is a worse form of conquest and murder because they were conquering and killing their own people.
But the US was killing Native Americans which weren't citizens, so it is not as bad as killing your own people like the Mongolian/Chinese/Mao.
Uh, ghengis Khan certainly killed a lot of non mongols. He pretty strongly justified the conquest on such terms. (that, and loyalty/fealty). Many leaders through time did.
All that said, consider football. A point is a point, but an own goal stings worse. Not because the opposing players are subhuman, but you were supposed to do best by your own.
Bloodthirsty racist crackers using muh football rules to explain why America being born from a genocide of over 56 million people "wasn't that bad akshually":
I was referring to "soccer" but you do you. I've repeatedly made clear that Andrew Jackson, and America at large are "bad, akshually".
The whole point is that china is "bad, akshually". TOO. Tge whole thing I ever replied to was on that point, America was brought up to me, as a whataboutism.
For those in the back: Andrew Jackson was a genocidal monster.
why is it worse to attempt to prevent famine, and fail, than it is to attempt to genocide people and succeed?
"Killing your own people" Is literally Nazi discourse.
It's how they differentiated between Germans and German Jews. They weren't really 'their people', so it wasn't bad.
Do better.
Ok va*sh, calm down.
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