Democrats will believe anything as long as it's against Orange Man
Trump tried to weaken NATO
He pushed for an increase of NATO spending to 4% GDP and also increased U.S. military presence in Europe.
Trump lifted sanctions on Russia
Also a lie: he put 16 sanctions on Russia between 2017 and 2019.
I was reading it like, what the fuck are they talking about, his entire shtick was going to Europe and saying "We need to you to spend more on NATO! It's a bad deal folks! We aren't getting enough! If they don't pay up then we'll withdraw!"
I won't deny that he was more Russia-friendly than Biden ended up being but "absolute frothing at the mouth hatred" isn't a hard bar to pass. Like, not wanting to start an extremely transparent proxy war with your long-time nuclear rival just seems like common sense
These people are insane and prevalent. It's what happens when you watch too much MSM.
I heard from someone recently that Q-anon was created by Russia. No need to think critically about your country's failures when you can blame Putler.
I read the subreddit for people who have lost friends and family to Qanon, and probably every 6th or 7th post will include a snarky aside about Russia or China being behind it, which nobody ever disagrees with. Its crazy, I watch them correctly identify all the patterns of conspiratorial thinking the q people in their lives obsess over, but then they'll turn around and repeat state department propaganda without a second thought. I'm pretty sure if I tried to bring this up, i know how it would go.
"Biden is making things easy for China", "Trump tried to weaken NATO". They always find a way to divert the focus to Russia and China even in internal disagreements.
Except Trump publicly spoke both about leaving NATO and about not responding to a NATO member under attack (the example he used was Montenegro).
Biden did neither of these things.
Trump moved Amerikan troops from Germany to Poland, that is: closer to the Russian border and deliberately broke nuclear disarmament treaties with Russia, but that's easy to miss when you base political analysis on words instead of actions. It was entirely the point of the Trump administration to performatively signal support of Putin's reactionary chauvinism to pander to the GOP base while pursuing the same aggressive expansionism you'd expect from any US government. When you view US politics through that movie-brained, main character focussed lens instead of looking at actual policy, the same ruse also works on Democrats, they'll just walk away from it with a different moral judgement, which is the intended outcome. You can argue between parties over foreign policy without ever actually changing that murderous foreign policy.
Trump is doing what we have seen under Bush jr. already, only in a more aggressive tone: Jingoistically shitting on US allies to assert dominance, but leaving these alliances in place. Then after the next electoralist circus, there's a Democrat in charge who tells the same allies that they are now valued again. European liberals can pretend that the good Amerika has won and the nightmarish clowns that have been in charge for the last 4 or 8 years are finally banished and everything's right again and we can continue living under Amerikan hegemony without having to worry about our hegemon's continued, steady descend into mask-off fascism.
This is how conspiracy theory logic works though. You take something that is technically true in a vacuum and then use it to "prove" something completely unrelated.
Trump did publicly speak about those things. That's all he did though. He didn't begin the process of withdrawing from NATO, or actively refuse a call for aid from a NATO member. He just vomited words out of his mouth, because...that's like 90% of what he does, he just spouts whatever is on his mind, then forgets all about it a week later.
Saying "Trump said a thing." ≠ "Trump is therefore a Putin Puppet."
There is nothing connecting these two things. There are plenty of reasons to hate Trump without resorting to conspiracies about him. Hate him for the things he actually does, not stuff that is made up about him.
Occupy Dems is so pitiful. I usually don't like thecword cuck but hey, it fits.
Oh...right...Election is coming up.
Dems got mad about Qanon being so successful, so they're trying to push their own, much lamer conspiracy theory.
Edit: And wow, mentioning Trump is drawing in libs like moths to a flame. A shame none of them seem to be able to actually read any of the other words we say.
Oh...right...Election is coming up.
In 15 months... The Yankee election cycle is some 500 times the size of the actual election date.
So much pomp and circumstance, it's like a Roman Triumph, except instead of celebrating a military victory they just announce how "life or death" it is to vote for the guy who would rather "shoot them in the leg."
Point to any comment where we defend Trump. You have 6 hours to do it before you get banned.
edit: time's up. guess what happened next
that's pretty obviously a criticism of trump, especially on the sanctions on Russia. Like it literally contradicts your narrative that we defend both Trump and Putin
you should program yourself an AI that will read threads for you and extract relevant information from them, you seem to be lacking reading comprehension
You're aware that under Trump, US funding for the shelling of Donbass increased and several disarmament treaties from the Cold War were openly voided by the US, leading to a massive increase in tensions between the USA and Russia? Trump was at least as much of a factor in setting the stage for Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the ensuing humanitarian catastrophy as any other US president since Bush sr., and was in fact worse than most in this regard. He was in no way less hawkish than the other mass murderers you yanqui pigs elect all the time, he was just more erratic about it and pretended to personally like Putin to pander to his base that sees him as some kind of bastion of white cishet supremacy. If you buy into the right-wing lie that Trump is some kind of anti-imperialist because he smiles more when he shakes Putin's hand in a photo op, you're actually carrying water for the GOP, who systematically co-opts anti-imperialist sentiment and never delivers on that promise, but only offers more of the Amerikan state terrorism that so many people even in the US are becoming fed up with.
Noooo! But Trump made a mockery of the presidency! He was rude and crass! How can I, an American Liberal put my head in the sand about my country's major issues and warmongering if our president is obnoxious?! I'm forced to face the reality of my country! Don't you know how much pain and suffering that causes me?!
Trump was at least as much of a factor in setting the stage for Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the ensuing humanitarian catastrophy as any other US president since Bush sr., and was in fact worse than most in this regard.
Um... yes, this is exactly my point. Trump helped set the stage for the invasion in all the ways you describe (leaving treaties which enabled Russia to ramp up - at least threats if not actual working nuclear weapons), calling for a NATO exit, withholding aid from Ukraine. I don't follow your logic here, are you happy that the war started?
Edit: I think I might get it now. Trump and other US presidents are responsible for the war, but not Putin. Is that correct?
oh ffs, stop your obsession with people being pro Putin, i'm a trans woman, that pig is making the existence of people like me outright illegal, why would i support him? Just stop being a child that can only view geopolitics through the lens of moral judgements.
Why would i be happy that the USA and Russia are waging a proxy war just two countries away from me? This shit will likely go on for at least another decade if it unfolds like similar conflicts, it could destabilize an entire region next to my home country, it has massively decreased our standard of living due to inflation and there's already arms for Ukraine showing up in the hands of nazi terrorists and criminal organizations. I do not have the Amerikan luxury of viewing this war as a cost-effective way to kill eastern Europeans, my point is that "you guys are pro Trump and pro Putin" is an entirely nonsensical talking point because these people aren't allies and have never been.
USA and Russia are waging a proxy war
It's not a proxy war for Russia, lol.
You should be happy because if Ukraine did not fight back, if it did not receive western supplies, the war would be fought in your country, and in mine. And trust me, you do not want Russians in your country (but if you're just two countries away and older than 12, you know that already).
these people aren't allies and have never been.
Ah, yes, billionaire oligarhs are totally not allies. No, they each only have the best interests of their working people at heart. And these two specially, their chat without transistors was just about football, Trump getting billions in loans from Russian state banks in just good business, and that Manafort guy was just a coincidence.
And trust me, you do not want Russians in your country
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if Ukraine did not fight back, if it did not receive western supplies, the war would be fought in your country, and in mine
How? The Russian sphere of influence has been shrinking for 30 years with next to no pushback until Crimea, they can barely occupy their direct neighbors, they took a decade to beat down the insurgency in fucking Chechnya and you're assuming they'd march on Berlin if we wouldn't gift cluster bombs to neonazis? Even during the Cold War, when the Red Army was at the peak of its power, such widespread invasion scenarios by default included strategic nuclear bombing of half of Western Europe. Are you in the "Putin is completely insane and wants to destroy the world" camp or how else do you explain your scenario?
BTW, i'm glad Soviet (not Russian) troops actually where in my country once, but that may be because i don't prefer the Nazis over the USSR.
Not just the last.... Say 3 presidential administrations, if not 4 somehow; but also every head of NATO in that time given the blatant violations of the Minsk Accords. Putin is turning the place into a charnel house; but it's the response of an animal backed into a corner-- which is understandable when an existential threat intends to surround and sunder you.
But you wouldn't know that; not yet. No one's done that to you yet, and I eagerly await the day the world gets sick of our shit.
Oh look, another lost democrat stumping for lost causes, warmongers, and racists. Get fucked, and take your family with you
defend Trump and Putin
Trump and Putin are neoliberal transphobes who pretend to offer an alternative to the present system but in reality just give more of the same. This meme presents Trump as an "outsider" when in reality he is very much part of the establishment and has the same bourgeois interests as the rest of them. Many of us believe that Putin is useful as an "enemy of our enemy" but that doesn't mean we think he's a good person or that we should emulate Russian laws. The meme is basically saying, "A vote for Trump is a vote to undermine US foreign policy!" but a lot of people are very dissatisfied with US foreign policy so it comes across as "A vote for Bart is a vote for Anarchy!" and helps Trump to paint the false narrative that he offers an alternative.
Also come on, the hammer and sickle is just ridiculous here. Russia hasn't been socialist in over 30 years, and again, with socialism becoming more popular with young people, it's totally counter-productive. But mostly using it here is just dumb and cringe because it has nothing to do with anything.
yeah sorry our shift at the Russian troll farm just started and we're a little behind on our quotas
Well, when your entire existence is focused on bringing down the big bad USA, of course you’d support Trump, Putin, and Ci. They’re just delusional thinking that the US would be better modeled after those two terrible countries.
Russia the failed state and China the most xenophobic “economic power” in the world.
I sincerely wish you one day get the opportunity to travel the world and see something other than your backwater town in bumfuck nowhere, USA (everywhere in the USA is bumfuck nowhere USA)
It's true, until i left the country i had no idea that you could go somewhere and feel a sense of "a stranger will give a shit if I lay bleeding on the street."
in the imo incredible graphic novel Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi, the author and protagonist makes note of how, in Iran, if you were sleeping on a park bench someone would come to you and offer you respite. In Austria -- where she fled to during the Islamic Revolution -- she was homeless for weeks and would sleep on park benches. Nobody stopped to check on her.
well at least the US isn't like that. in the US it's not acceptable to people when others have to sleep on benches and if someone does have no choice but to sleep on a bench they wouldn't be ignored.
because the benches are modified so she'd have to sleep in the gutter and rather than be ignored she would get a healthy dose of ridicule and hate from regular people around her before being beaten by the same cops that poured bleach in the dumpster to poison any throw away food she might have found there. progress.
of course you’d support Trump
Literally none of us do. This is a completely baseless and delusional accusation.
They’re just delusional thinking that the US would be better modeled after those two terrible countries.
And this shows further that you have zero understanding of our positions. None of us want the US to be modelled after Russia's system. Russia has an exploitative, capitalist system that was imposed on it by the US. It makes zero sense whatsoever to think that we'd want to model the US after it.
You're just talking nonsense and jumping to conclusions because you're totally unwilling to make any effort to understand where we're coming from.
Dont give them too much, funnily even the Russian system post 91 isnt half as corrupt and destructive to its own people as the American system is.
Regardless, it's still a capitalist system and not an ideal to persue.
There's no one set of policies that define Marxism anyway. Being critically supportive of a government abroad doesn't mean you want to institute all of its policies at home, and that's my main point.
That's fair, I just see lemmygrad has a lot of libs at the moment and i dont want to cede any ground lest they try to pull it towards the Western "leftist" standard of "sure america bad but russia worse," Russia today is not my ideal but it is better than America by no small margin
That's also fair, it's difficult to have an intelligent conversation when the libs are waiting to twist anything we say around in the worst possible light. That is, when they're not just fully pulling shit out of their asses like "supporting Trump"
Yeah, i dont know how yaall been doin it, just one glance at new lemmygrad is giving me head pain 😅 i see it as a wonderful radicalization and growth opportunity though. But damn do these mfers say the same dozen things over and over...
I support trump in his quest to destroy america even if he does it unintentionally.
Xenophobia is:
When you haven't been in a war in 50 years and actively build infrastructure with other countries as a part of mutual trade deals.
Xenophobia is not:
When you have a history of starting wars and destabilising other nations, and inflict horrific cruelties on your minority population.
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Show) (In case of the most obvious canned lib response)
