Ugh these people suck so bad. On average, western leftists are worse than useless. Some bullet points are kinda interesting, even if annoying.

        • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]
          ·
          13 days ago

          Buckaroo, if you're the one coming in vagueposting, it's on you to actually make a point instead of just shitting everywhere. Otherwise, kindly get off my lawn.

            • robinn_ [he/him]
              ·
              edit-2
              13 days ago

              Heh, if I intentionally vaguepost then they’ll tell me to make clearer points or stop talking. This will prove the article right (I’m literally being censored for not conforming to your hivemind).

              If they intuit what I’m saying and agree with me then they’ll be agreeing with the article and this will also prove the article right.

                • robinn_ [he/him]
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  You are. Take an actual position. Push a specific point from the article, point out your specific problem with “tankies,” etc. If you can’t do that then read the other replies to the post. Try making a specific reply to their critiques of the article.

                  • intresteph@discuss.online
                    ·
                    13 days ago

                    I said the article was spot on. I don’t need to pick out points because you don’t intend to discuss it, you’ll just ramp up the dunks until you are screaming and posting weird memes that only you understand. Like a child.

                    I read the replies. It’s… pretty spot on.

                    Not sure what the problem is, most of you like being like that. You’re not here to promote communism or social equality… this is recreation.

                    • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      13 days ago

                      You clearly just came here to stir shit and get attention from perceived enemies. Nobody here gives a shit what you think not because we are all "tankies" but because you're a beligerant and willfully ignorant child about it.

                      You can't just say "the article is spot on" and then be surprised when people press you on what you thought was correct and why. You couldn't even give one single example.

                      Also I've been here doing anarchist shit for over 4 years and I get along with tankies a lot, we all have valuable knowledge to share.

                      • cicebazna@discuss.online
                        ·
                        13 days ago

                        Well, when any kind of opinion that doesn’t fit the hive mind results in a ban, it kind of discourages wanting to fit in.

                        • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                          ·
                          13 days ago

                          You the same guy lol. People were just genuinely asking you to make a point about what was so correct about the article.

                          • cicebazna@discuss.online
                            ·
                            edit-2
                            13 days ago

                            Did you read it? And yes, I am the same person. The other account got banned, naturally. But I don’t accept authority of any kind and therefore I have thousands of accounts to circumvent all sorts of things.

                            • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              You have thousands of accounts to circumvent bans on niche forums so that you can go and post deliberately vague statements and throw around insults whilst entirely refusing to engage or even state your point of view, but people here are the ones just doing recreation instead of promoting their cause? thinkin-lenin

                              And yes, many of us do come here to shitpost and chat for recreation, including myself. Because we're functional people who actually do activism and organising in the real world, instead of thinking low-energy trolling is activism, and would prefer to chill on the sofa or on the boss' time scrolling Hexbear instead of whatever Reddit-brained place has formed your petulant online manner.

                            • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              No I wouldn't bother wasting my time with something titled in such a deeply unserious way.

                              • cicebazna@discuss.online
                                ·
                                13 days ago

                                Well, if you aren’t going to read it then why should I bother explaining my view?

                                Maybe don’t judge an article by its title?

                                I gotta go though, I can’t keep pausing this game or I’ll never get through it lol. Have a good night and set some shit on fire tomorrow.

                            • REgon [they/them]
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              13 days ago

                              But I don’t accept authority of any kind and therefore I have thousands of accounts to circumvent all sorts of things.

                              stalin-gun-1logout
                              Imagine being this online lmao i-cant :i-cant: i-cant

                              The bravest anti-authoritarian posting from the trenches of niche webforums lol go touch grass dude. I cannot imagine maintaining thousands of accounts so I can be mad at leftists online i-cant this is legitimately one of the saddest things I've ever read, please touch grass
                              Go do something useful if you're so anti-authority

                        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                          ·
                          13 days ago

                          Imagine coming to a forum with the intention of breaking rules by starting a flame war and then being surprised you got a ban. Truly, this is the fault of the evil tankies of the six-sided ursine, who are the only people to ever issue bands for rule-breaking behavior.

                          • cicebazna@discuss.online
                            ·
                            13 days ago

                            I wasn’t surprised. I doubt anyone even read the article. Just live the DuNkS.

                            Gotta go though. Peace out comrade.

                            • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              There is literally a review of the points in this thread, quotes and all.

                              Needless to say, it's the usual western anarchist/liberal nonsense.

                            • MolotovHalfEmpty [he/him]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              There's a lengthly point by point deconstruction of it above, but that would require you to actually read the very thing you're complaining about, ironically enough.

                            • REgon [they/them]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS COME HERE FOR POINTLESS DUNKS YOU DINGUS YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE, BUT THROWING MEANINGLESS ACCUSATIONS AROUND INSTEAD OF ENGAGING WITH ANYONE

                              Had you engaged with any text at all you would have noticed people are telling you "you're being weirdly vague and hostile about people dunking on you, despite no such dunks yet occuring. No dunks occured because you have posted nothing of substance, thus there is nothing to dunk on. Please share your opinion so we can have a discussion" and you've instead decided to be smug, condescending and hostile, despite never at any point in this thread saying literally anything. Not in a "hahaha your point is so bad it's like saying nothing" but in the actual literal sense. Nobody here understands what the fuck you've tried to argue, because you have put forth 0 arguments. People are pissed because you're being a dipshit despite several polite invitations to explain what the fuck it is you think you are saying. Somehow you think this is people trying to "force" you to explain yourself - Is this the first time you are experiencing a conversation? Have you never talked to anyone before? Are you an actual toddler, just now learning how to speak? What the fuck is wrong with you?

                        • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                          ·
                          edit-2
                          13 days ago

                          Nako: I've been an anarchist here for years and it's been just fine

                          You: Heh, if I share thought counter to the tankie hivemind, they'll ban me

                          • REgon [they/them]
                            ·
                            13 days ago

                            Them: What are your thoughts?

                            The lib: See what I mean? Just so hostile!

                        • REgon [they/them]
                          ·
                          13 days ago

                          YOU HAVEN'T STATED ANY OPINION, THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU WHAT IS YOUR OPINION YOU FUCKING CHILD USE WORDS SPEAK HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU NOT GET IT

                    • robinn_ [he/him]
                      ·
                      13 days ago

                      But we are discussing it. There are multiple comments going through specific points in the article. If you gave an actual substantive reply to criticism of the article then you would get a substantive reply instead of a dunk.

                    • REgon [they/them]
                      ·
                      13 days ago

                      I said the article was spot on.

                      ABOUT WHAT MOTHERFUCKER???? NOBODY HAS EVEN ASKED ABOUT SPECIFIC POINTS JUST MAKE LITERALLY ANY FUCKING POINT WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOU STUPID IDIOT

            • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]
              ·
              13 days ago

              I walked in there and acted like a prick about nothing, then I took a piss in the corner, and they had the audacity to throw me out! I am being shut down by authoritarians!

            • miz [any, any]
              ·
              13 days ago

              how can we shut you down when you haven't said anything

            • REgon [they/them]
              ·
              13 days ago

              You haven't said anything to shut down yet dude. You haven't said anything at all. People are asking you to elaborate because you've said absolutely fuck all, how can you be this dense?

        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
          ·
          13 days ago

          The word 'tankie' means 'a person who is correct' and is usually employed by people who support the entry of NATO tanks into Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

        • miz [any, any]
          ·
          13 days ago

          okay dronie

          Tankies [1] don’t usually believe that Stalin or Mao “did nothing wrong”, although many do use that phrase for effect (this is the internet, remember). We believe that Stalin and Mao were committed socialists who, despite their mistakes, did much more for humanity than most of the bourgeois politicians who are typically put forward as role models (Washington? Jefferson? JFK? Jimmy Carter?), and that they haven’t been judged according to the same standard as those bourgeois politicians. People call this “whataboutism” [2], but the claim “Stalin was a monster” is implicitly a comparative claim meaning “Stalin was qualitatively different from and worse than e.g. Churchill,” and I think the opposite is the case. If people are going to make veiled comparisons, us tankies have the right to answer with open ones.

          To defend someone from an unfair attack you don’t have to deify them, you just have to notice that they’re being unfairly attacked. This is unquestionably the case for Stalin and Mao, who have been unjustly demonized more than any other heads of state in history. Tankies understand that there is a reason for this: the Cold War, in which the US spent countless billions of dollars trying to undermine and destroy socialism [3], specifically Marxist-Leninist states. Many western leftists think that all this money and energy had no substantial effect on their opinions, but this seems extremely naive. We all grew up in ideological/media environments shaped profoundly by the Cold War, which is why Cold War anticommunist ideas about the Soviets being monsters are so pervasive a dogma (in the West).

          The reason we “defend authoritarian dictators” is because we want to defend the accomplishments of really existing socialism, and other people’s false or exaggerated beliefs about those “dictators” almost always get in the way — it’s not tankies but normies [4] who commit the synecdoche of reducing all of really existing socialism to Stalin and Mao. Those accomplishments include raising standards of living, achieving unprecedented income equality, massive gains in women’s rights and the position of women vis-a-vis men, defeating the Nazis, raising life expectancy, ending illiteracy, putting an end to periodic famines, inspiring and providing material aid to decolonizing movements (e.g. Vietnam, China, South Africa, Burkina Faso, Indonesia), which scared the West into conceding civil rights and the welfare state. These were greater strides in the direction of abolishing capitalism than any other society has ever made. These are the gains that are so important to insist on, against the CIA/Trotskyist/ultraleft consensus that the Soviet Union was basically an evil empire and Stalin a deranged butcher.

          There are two approaches one can take to people who say “socialism = Stalin = bad”: you can try to break the first leg of the equation or the second. Trotskyists take the first option; they’ve had the blessing of the academy, foundation and CIA money for their publishing outfits, and controlled the narrative in the West for the better part of the last century. But they haven’t managed to make a successful revolution anywhere in all that time. Recently, socialism has been gaining in popularity… and so have Marxism-Leninism and support for Stalin and Mao. Thus it’s not the case that socialism can only gain ground in the West by throwing really existing socialism and socialist leaders under the bus.

          The thing is, delinking socialism from Stalin also means delinking it from the Soviet Union, disavowing everything that’s been done under the name of socialism as “Stalinist”. The “socialism” that results from this procedure is defined as grassroots, bottom-up, democratic, non-bureaucratic, nonviolent, non-hierarchical… in other words, perfect. So whenever real revolutionaries (say, for example, the Naxals in India) do things imperfectly they are cast out of “socialism” and labeled “Stalinists”. This is clearly an example of respectability politics run amok. Tankies believe that this failure of solidarity, along with the utopian ideas that the revolution can win without any kind of serious conflict or without party discipline, are more significant problems for the left than is “authoritarianism” (see Engels for more on this last point). We believe that understanding the problems faced by Stalin and Mao helps us understand problems generic to socialism, that any successful socialism will have to face sooner or later. This is much more instructive and useful than just painting nicer and nicer pictures of socialism while the world gets worse and worse.

          It’s extremely unconvincing to say “Sure it was horrible last time, but next time it’ll be different”. Trotskyists and ultraleftists compensate by prettying up their picture of socialism and picking more obscure (usually short-lived) experiments to uphold as the real deal. But this just gives ammunition to those who say “Socialism doesn’t work” or “Socialism is a utopian fantasy”. And lurking behind the whole conversation is Stalin, who for the average Westerner represents the unadvisability of trying to radically change the world at all. No matter how much you insist that your thing isn’t Stalinist, the specter of Stalin is still going to affect how people think about (any form of) socialism — tankies have decided that there is no getting around the problem of addressing Stalin’s legacy. That legacy, as it stands, at least in Western public opinion (they feel differently about him in other parts of the world), is largely the product of Cold War propaganda.

          And shouldn’t we expect capitalists to smear socialists, especially effective socialists? Shouldn’t we expect to hear made up horror stories about really existing socialism to try and deter us from trying to overthrow our own capitalist governments? Think of how the media treats antifa. Think of WMDs in Iraq, think of how concentrated media ownership is, think of the regularity with which the CIA gets involved in Hollywood productions, think of the entirety of dirty tricks employed by the West during the Cold War (starting with the invasion of the Soviet Union immediately after the October Revolution by nearly every Western power), and then tell me they wouldn’t lie about Stalin. Robert Conquest was IRD [5]. Gareth Jones worked for the Rockefeller Institute, the Chrysler Foundation and Standard Oil and was buddies with Heinz and Hitler. Solzhenitsyn was a virulently antisemitic fiction writer. Everything we know about the power of media and suggestion indicates that the anticommunist and anti-Stalin consensus could easily have been manufactured irrespective of the facts — couple that with an appreciation for how legitimately terrified the ruling classes of the West were by the Russian and Chinese revolutions and you have means and motive.

          Anyway, the basic point is that socialist revolution is neither easy (as the Trotskyists and ultraleftists would have it) nor impossible (as the liberals and conservatives would have it), but hard. It will require dedication and sacrifice and it won’t be won in a day. Tankies are those people who think the millions of communists who fought and died for socialism in the twentieth century weren’t evil, dupes, or wasting their time, but people to whom we owe a great deal and who can still teach us a lot.

          Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, DPRK, etc. They care about your position with respect to states and contenders-for-statehood, and how likely you are to try and emulate them. They are not worried about the molecular and the rhizomatic because they know that those things can be brought back into line by the application of force. It’s their monopoly on force that they are primarily concerned to protect. When you desert real socialism in favor of ideal socialism, the kind that never took up arms against anybody, you’re doing them a favor.


          from https://redsails.org/tankies/

          • intresteph@discuss.online
            ·
            13 days ago

            I have a feeling that maga is gonna love that text when defending trump. They aren’t defending the authoritarian, they’re just celebrating his accomplishments!

            No authority is the best authority.

                • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  Do you take any negative reception to your comments as proof of whatever point you are trying to make? If you have a criticism to make in a public forum, shouldn't you reasonably expect a response that might likewise be critical?

                  • cicebazna@discuss.online
                    ·
                    13 days ago

                    Well, if I walk into a room full of maga and point out that they are behaving like maga and they go off on me, should I take their negative reception seriously?

                    The article was spot on, and continues to be. I think it’s a little funny that more lemmy ‘communists’ don’t just own up to it.

                    I guess my view of communism is different. However, this is the internet after all. Everyone is kind of a dick.

                    • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                      ·
                      13 days ago

                      Should the people you've gone out of your way to antagonize take you seriously if you actively refuse to even articulate a criticism (even when directly invited to multiple times) and just post vague smug shit?

                      And look, for all the whining about "dog-piling" and "swarming" that people make about our instance, you can have replies to your comments, or you can have downvotes where nobody expresses an actual criticism and nobody gains anything.

                        • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                          ·
                          13 days ago

                          We literally do not have downvotes, hence all the replies trying to get somebody to make an actual point.

                          How can people have this sort of smug self-confidence in their beliefs if they cannot articulate a single point even when directly invited to do so? Literally one of you just make a point and then give a "why". Preferably make the "why" better than "because I received any negative reception for my vague but obviously antagonistic comment."

                          • cicebazna@discuss.online
                            ·
                            13 days ago

                            The article has a bunch of bullets. Pick one. Spot on. My point is the article was right. I mean, just own it. Chasing people away from communism is pretty much all lemmy communists do lol.

                            And, what I meant is I use voyager as my client, and it allows me to hide the voting thing. So.. it’s just missing. I wouldn’t know if you had or did not have it. You mentioned it. 🤷‍♂️

                            • robinn_ [he/him]
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              13 days ago

                              Multiple comments have gone through bulletin points and explained why they’re wrong. If you can’t engage with specific criticism then don’t defend the article?

                              And if you say seriously engaging with criticism will get you a ton of dismissive replies, this is actually what willfully ignoring it will do, and has done.

                              You have no idea what communism is. I am 100% certain of that.

                            • GnastyGnuts [he/him]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              You pick one! Jesus Christ it was your post in the first place that lead to this whole comment chain! You can't even pick your own goddamn bullet point? You have got to be fucking with me dawg!

                              Holy fuck seriously, what orgs are you a part of so I know not to have anything to fucking do with them, then you can talk about "chasing people away from communism."

                              Hell, try elaborating that point even. How do you think we are chasing people from communism? Are our shit-posts just too shitty?

                              • cicebazna@discuss.online
                                ·
                                13 days ago

                                Just stop shit-posting and dunking entirely and focus on promoting the positive parts of communities with equality in a more strategic way to effect measurable change.

                                Communism is grounded in compassion, in the idea of working toward a truly liberated society, not one that merely replaces the oppressors of yesterday with new oppressors today. And yet, when I look at many so-called leftists, I see them betraying that principle every day, more interested in ideological purity or geopolitical “victories” than in standing for justice. They might claim they’re against fascism, but when they excuse brutality and silence in the name of their ideology, I see little difference between them and the right-wing authoritarians they claim to despise.

                                Maybe I’m just a soft dick.

                                • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                  ·
                                  13 days ago

                                  It is the communist movements that you decry as 'replacing oppressors of yesterday with the oppressors of today' that have managed to massively improve people's lives. They are the ones that fought against colonialism and capitalism and achieved some success. Not the people who whine about how bad we are and then just side with the colonial metropoles that exterminate and enslave the rest of the world.

                                  The sort of actions and policies that we support have been proven to work for the liberation of humanity. You have been proven to work for the world's enslavement.

                                        • GenderIsOpSec [she/her]
                                          ·
                                          13 days ago

                                          I want to oppress you so bad actually, when the Dictatorship of The Queer is a reality I will personally find you so I can transify you bridget-pride-stay-mad hell yeah call me authoritarian, red fash and all the rest of the meaningless buzzwords, you're still going to put on the cat ears and the thigh highs

                                          • tripopov@discuss.online
                                            ·
                                            13 days ago

                                            Im actually kinda into thigh highs, I don’t have the cat ears though but I bet I would look cute. And since I’m gay already, it’s only a matter of time.

                                                • GenderIsOpSec [she/her]
                                                  ·
                                                  edit-2
                                                  13 days ago

                                                  Damn, almost had you clocked as a Cis White Gay. You're definitely acting like one, anyway have a nice day vagueposting about bad shit the most trans-friendly space on the internet is up to and is bad actually.

                                                    • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                      ·
                                                      13 days ago

                                                      'Peace and love' is when you claim that the anti-colonjal liberation movements of Asia, Africa, etc. were all oppressive and shouldn't have succeeded, and when you don't suggest any viable alternatives.

                                                    • REgon [they/them]
                                                      ·
                                                      13 days ago

                                                      WHICH ONE? YOU ARE SAYING YOU'RE AGAINST DICTATORSHIP AND YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE FOR IT SO NAME THE DICTATORSHIP YOU THINK USERS SUPPORT HERE YOU ABSOLUTE CHAMPION OF A MORON

                                            • Nakoichi [they/them]M
                                              ·
                                              13 days ago

                                              you know which part you're just being willfully ignorant at this point with every single reply I'm done with you.

                                            • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                              ·
                                              13 days ago

                                              You literally decry communist movements that were successful in their struggles for liberation from your colonialism (this includes the USSR, by the way) as simply switching the oppressor.

                                              You are either extremely ignorant, or are just outright malicious.

                                              • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                ·
                                                13 days ago

                                                Moving forward, we don’t need oppressors. It’s possible to do it as a community. We can all get along.

                                                • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                  ·
                                                  13 days ago

                                                  HAHAHA.
                                                  What is this nonsense? Do you suggest the people under your colonial bondage just get along with their oppressors? Or that workers hold hands with the capitalists?

                                                  What do you suggest people of Vietnam should have done? Korea? Cuba? Laos? China?

                                                  • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                    ·
                                                    13 days ago

                                                    Clearly the governments who control people need to be removed. I thought that was obvious, but… I guess not. I don’t think they need to be replaced with another oppressive government. I think it should be given to the people. You keep telling me what I think… and you keep getting it wrong.

                                                      • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                        ·
                                                        13 days ago

                                                        You might, but that’s not the vibe I’m getting from the above comments advocating for an oppressive government. I really don’t get the “tell them what they think” tactic. It just makes them look intolerant and illiterate.

                                                        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          edit-2
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          You are literally saying that the governments that fought against colonialism were/are oppressive, and then you go 'I don't actually think that!'

                                                          You are also yet to explain what the victims of your colonialism should have done.
                                                          By the way, this includes Nazi German settler-colonial genocide that targeted, among others, a group I belong to. Please, tell me how much you would love for my family to be enslaved and worked to death, infant.

                                                        • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                                                          ·
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          You might, but that’s not the vibe I’m getting

                                                          Do you not know what a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" actually means? Do you think it just means "A dictator is in charge, but the kind we like?"

                                                        • REgon [they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          NOBODY HAS ADVOCATED FOR AN OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN NO POSTIONS PRESENTED AT ALL YOU HAVE ADVOCATED FOR NOTHING SO HOW THE FUCK WOULD OTHERS ADVOCATE FOR SOMETHING? PLEASE STATE YOUR FUCKING OPINION ABOUT THE SUBJECT AT HAND SAYING "I AGREE" IS FUCKING MEANINGLESS WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY WHAT IT IS YOU AGREE WITH OR WHAT YOU AGREE WITH IT ABOUT

                                                        • miz [any, any]
                                                          ·
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          pro tip: the differently colored text indicates a link you can click on

                                                    • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                      ·
                                                      13 days ago

                                                      Clearly the governments who control people need to be removed.

                                                      So that NATO can invade them again and resubjugate them as your near-slaves?
                                                      How about no, and how about you stop pretending that you know what's best for the people your empire has harmed and has been harming?

                                                      I don’t think they need to be replaced with another oppressive government.

                                                      You are yet to remove any of the governments of the colonial metropoles, while storing with colonial oppressors at every turn.
                                                      If you want to stop the oppression of the world outside of the Imperial core, you need to do at least something about the states of said core. So far it is only the spooky MLs and other communists that you hate so much who do something viable regarding the matter, including having the 'oppressive' governments that defend their people against your empire.

                                                      You are yet to expiration what you think the people in Vietnsm, Cuba, Korea, etc. should have done, and why antagonising us and helping your empire is higher on your priority list than replacing your governments with something else.

                                                      • tripopov@discuss.online
                                                        ·
                                                        13 days ago

                                                        You seem to like blaming people for things they don’t actually have direct control of.

                                                        You say I want slaves, but I obviously don’t.

                                                        You ask why I haven’t removed the government… like I have the button?

                                                        It’s very clear you’re not interested in world where everyone comes together. You want a few people to suffer first. And that’s where we differ.

                                                        Everything you’re saying about me is wrong. It doesn’t make me feel bad. It just makes you look intolerant.

                                                        Say more about how I want to colonize things so I can laugh.

                                                        ✌️

                                                        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          You seem to like blaming people for things they don’t actually have direct control of.

                                                          You have full control over you coming here, antagonising us, and talking about how communists in the rest of the world should have no defense against your empire.

                                                          You claim that those governments are/were oppressive, but you are yet to present any viable alternative. Just vague 'oh, they should just have no governments', completely unsupported by history.

                                                          You say I want slaves, but I obviously don’t.

                                                          Cool. How do you suggest the rest of the world stops subjugation by your empire - which western anarchists like you have not only done nothing against, but have even supported? And do consider that if your suggestion is unsupported by history, you are just being unserious.

                                                          So far, it seems that you just want NATO to restore the old colonial gold over the rest of the world.

                                                          You ask why I haven’t removed the government… like I have the button?

                                                          Why do you want the rest of the world to follow your vision that is unsupported by history that you (plural) have never managed to achieve anywhere, and while being completely against what had worked and what has massively improved people's lives, then? You have no examples to show, and you argue that the rest of the world should be rid of defenses against you.

                                                          It’s very clear you’re not interested in world where everyone comes together.

                                                          The USSR was one of the most consistent and successful forces in having most of the world come together to fight colonialism. You argue that that was 'oppressive'.

                                                          You want a few people to suffer first

                                                          You quite literally want for people to suffer under capitalism until you somehow topple every government (somehow, while doing nothing and while supporting the states and people who suppress any sort of change for good that does not involve getting rid of governments immediately), and are unwilling to support any changes for the better until then.

                                                          Everything you’re saying about me is wrong.

                                                          You literally claimed that the movements that fought against colonialism and capitalism successfully were somehow had and oppressive.

                                                        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          It just makes you look intolerant.

                                                          Haha. You are literally opposed to the liberation of Vietnam, Korea, Mozambique, Cuba, etc., because the liberation movements were 'oppressive'.

                                                        • REgon [they/them]
                                                          ·
                                                          edit-2
                                                          13 days ago

                                                          I don't mean to imply the use of the "r" word, but are you... like actually cognitively impaired? Do you struggle with linking thoughts together, unironically? Maintaining a train of thought? It's completely fine if you do, no shame at all, but I would appreciate it if you told us if that was the case, because I am genuinely confused at what you think is going on. Knowing wether or not you're struggling with short term memory loss or something would be a great help in furthering this discussion to a positive and productive space or getting you the help you seem to need.

                                                    • REgon [they/them]
                                                      ·
                                                      13 days ago

                                                      Clearly the governments who control people need to be removed.

                                                      They need to be removed? Wow who will do the removing? Sounds very authoritarian, just removing governments like that. I'm sorry but I can't support that.

                                    • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                      ·
                                      edit-2
                                      13 days ago

                                      Right.

                                      For you, there is no difference between (people being forced to work 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, having no guaranteed access to housing, education and healthcare, women not being protected from marital SA, having a life expectancy of 30 or so years), and literally the opposite with life expectancy rising by 60% within 30 years.

                                      You also see no difference between literal old-style colonialism and the lack thereof. Literal pro-colonial white European child is what you are.

                                      Please, tell us more about compassion and how bad we want to 'oppress' people by giving women fundamental rights, providing people in general with essential needs, including housing and healthcare, eliminating illiteracy, etc.

                                      EDIT: if you want colonialism so much, why don't you volunteer to be treated as people were treated under the Red Rubber laws?

                                      Also, it's funny how you don't want any authority over you, but want to subjugate non-white people as your slave and near-slaves

                                      • garpujol@discuss.online
                                        ·
                                        13 days ago

                                        What? I have no idea where you got that. You just read whatever you want?

                                        This is my problem, you just make shit up. I want everything in your last paragraph. We don’t need to have an oppressive government to make that happen.

                                        • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                                          ·
                                          edit-2
                                          13 days ago

                                          What? I have no idea where you got that. You just read whatever you want?

                                          I don’t accept any oppressor as a step forward.

                                          Either you do not actually speak about any movement that we support, or you don't see any difference between before and after they succeeded. Which is it?

                                          This is my problem, you just make shit up

                                          I literally listed some of the things that the USSR managed to achieve within the first 30 years of its existence. Pretty sure almost all of that also applies to the PRC (just with the different starting line expectancy).

                                          I want everything in your last paragraph

                                          Cool. Then you want the USST, the PRC, Cuba, liberated Korea, etc.

                                          We don’t need to have an oppressive government to make that happen.

                                          You claim that every movement that achieved those things was 'oppressive'. As such, this claim of yours is unsupported.

                                          EDIT: Also, what is your plan for defending against a NATO invasion?

                                    • REgon [they/them]
                                      ·
                                      edit-2
                                      13 days ago

                                      If you are against the dictatorship of the proletariat as a necessary step, then you are not a communist. I don't know if that's what you are saying though, since you are still saying practically nothing at all.

                                • REgon [they/them]
                                  ·
                                  13 days ago

                                  Just stop shit-posting and dunking entirely

                                  YOU ARE THE ONE DOING THE SHITPOSTING AND DUNKING RIGHT NOW WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

                                  focus on promoting the positive parts of communities with equality in a more strategic way to effect measurable change.

                                  WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT YOU MASSIVE IDIOT
                                  Also hexbear does a lot of community organising and social events, so what the fuck are you even talking about you massive idiot?

                                  Communism is grounded in compassion, in the idea of working toward a truly liberated society, not one that merely replaces the oppressors of yesterday with new oppressors today. And yet, when I look at many so-called leftists, I see them betraying that principle every day, more interested in ideological purity or geopolitical “victories” than in standing for justice. They might claim they’re against fascism, but when they excuse brutality and silence in the name of their ideology, I see little difference between them and the right-wing authoritarians they claim to despise.

                                  HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE DISCUSSION GOING ON? CONGRATULATIONS YOU SAID SOMETHING BUT YOU MANAGED TO MAKE IT A COMPLETE NON-SEQUITEUR MAKING YOUR POSITION EVEN MORE VAGUE AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU NEVER TALKED WITH A HUMAN BEING BEFORE?

                            • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                              ·
                              13 days ago

                              The article has a bunch of bullets. Pick one. Spot on

                              Okay, so, you are saying that you know for a fact that communist orgs 'hyperfocus on bureaucracy'. Which orgs have you been to to know that, I wonder?

                              Sounds suspiciously as if this is just a vibes-based analysis for you, and that you think that this article painting a picture that coincides worth what you have been told by the people who invaded Iraq and other countries.

                            • REgon [they/them]
                              ·
                              edit-2
                              13 days ago

                              The article has a bunch of bullets. Pick one. Spot on.

                              ABOUT WHAT?????? HOW CAN YOU NOT GET IT? WHAT IS THAT BULLET POINT SPOT ON ABOUT? YOU STARTED OUT WITH SAYING YOU AGREE WITH THE ARTICLE, WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE ASKING YOU TO ELABORATE. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORD OR THE CONCEPT?

                              You mentioned it

                              YOU DID! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON IN YOUR BRAIN

                    • REgon [they/them]
                      ·
                      edit-2
                      13 days ago

                      Well, if I walk into a room full of maga and point out that they are behaving like maga and they go off on me, should I take their negative reception seriously?

                      Well what if you wrote "heil Hitler" instead of what you did write? Then that would be very bad right? So this means you're a nazi.

                      What the fuck are you talking about? Liberals and making up weird situations that complicate a simple situation, instead of just relating to the situation at hand: Name a more iconic duo.

                      The article was spot on, and continues to be.

                      ABOUT WHAT MOTHERFUCKER? YOU STILL HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THE ARTICLE IS SPOT ON ABOUT? HOW? HOW DOES IT DESCRIBE LEMMY INSTANCES? WHICH INSTANCES? SAY ANYTHING PLEASE YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED SO MANY TIMES JUST SAY ANYTHING YOU FUCKING DUMBASS

                      I guess my view of communism is different.

                      MAYBE???? HOW CAN WE KNOW WHEN YOU SAY NOTHING AT ALL??

                      Everyone is kind of a dick.

                      My grandmother used to say: If you meet someone who smells like shit, then you probably met someone who stepped in dogshit. If everyone you meet smells like shit, then it's time to check under your shoe.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  You think people shouldn't be allowed to respond to you? That sounds pretty authoritarian, you tankie.

                • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  Is this the first time you come to any forum and start pissing and shitting all over the place?

                  Try to mildly criticize western anarchists or liberals and I guarantee that you will get dogpiled immediately.

                    • Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]
                      ·
                      13 days ago

                      Well, firstly, you need to check your eyesight, because at the very least I am not a westerner.

                      Secondly, in case you couldn't understand a sentence worth of text, I suggested you go to a western anarchist or liberal forum and try to antagonise them. You will get swarmed and dogpiled right that instant.

                • REgon [they/them]
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  Me when I see a community of people supporting eachother: "Wow, glad I'm not like those people! I've got no one and am all alone, which proves that I am living a healthy life. Very rude of them to ask me about my opinion, especially when I can't explain it. Anyway back to my thousands of online accounts I maintain so I can argue with strangers online. And by argue I mean insult people who keep asking me politely to please explain what it is I believe. This will deal a massive blow to the vague concept of authority somehow. Also the US is a force for good and I need to support it."

            • heggs_bayer [he/him]
              ·
              13 days ago

              You clearly lack reading comprehension. The quoted text is not trying to draw some distinction between "defending" and "celebrating one's accomplishments" and say that the former is bad while the latter is fine. What it does do is point out that the common attack on socialism that accuses actually existing socialist states of being totalitarian hellholes and important historic socialist leaders of being dictators is a load of shit; using a consistent standard to compare them to their contemporaries would reveal that socialism accomplished many wonders starting from extremely difficult conditions and that most "democratic" leaders are far more monstrous than even the nastiest tales cooked up about Stalin and Mao.

              Among what I just said and some other things, it makes a point that is very pertinent to this discussion: the characterization of tankies as "uncritically defending authoritarian regimes/dictators" (as asserted by the zine from the OP) and detesting literally all dissent regardless of what the content of that dissent might be (as you asserted) is also a load of shit that depends on treating socialist experiments as radioactive failures that are entirely bad and not worth defending. Tankies are perfectly capable of recognizing and criticizing the mistakes those experiments actually made; the commonly hurled criticisms are torn apart because they are factually wrong and made in bad faith.

            • REgon [they/them]
              ·
              edit-2
              13 days ago

              Lmao "what if the text said something other than what it said and it was about MAGA instead?" also authoritarianism is made up by the totalitarian CIA you uneducated dork 1 2
              We both know you're not gonna read this either though, it's above your grade.