In response to @CARCOSA@hexbear.nets last post in the previous thread and their announcement about stepping down
Carcosa, please don't step down. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, what is wrong is not reflecting upon those mistakes, and you are very capable of self-reflection. Expecting someone to operate without error forever is ludicrous, an impossible demand. You are about the best person we could have in the position. You are patient, considerate and capable of balancing a great many groups, even when getting treated like the whipping boy.[1]
You haven't made any real errors in handling all this. Mistakes were made, but that's not really on you. It's obvious you've got a clique of mods that whip up a frenzy among themselves and then shield their shitty opinions with leftist rhetoric. Ironically that is what makes hexbear most like a real-world org lol. You probably interact with them a lot and you experience their positive side as well. Something like this was bound to happen with that going on for long enough time. You get lambasted by these dorks, they use rhetoric like calling the users "cishet white men" despite most of this sites' userbase being queer.
I've been thinking about this since the last post about chauvinism "scaring people away" and then looking in the thread to see how it was celebrated. Hell, I've been thinking about since we talked about closing the news mega because some users didn't like "the vibe". They talked of chauvinism back then too. Funny how it seems to mean "things I don't like" and not actually being descriptive of chauvinism.
Just like in this thread, the very same people who act like toxic assholes were partying that now "finally" hexbear was becoming a good site open for all. As long as those people completely line up with what the little clique act like. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but I probably should have. I can't speak on behalf of women, on account of not being one, but I personally do not experience this site as inherently masculine.
The only thing that really turns me off from this site, is the toxic and hostile clique that for some reason is allowed to act in a way that would get all others banned, and for some reason are listened to and taken more seriously than the rest of the site. There's a group who seems to think this place is their personal project, despite just being a link in a long chain of mods, despite not being here for very long[2] The main thing that keeps me from recommending this place to my girlfriends - and my enbiefriends - and my boyfriends - is that clique of needlessly hostile, agressive stereotype of an online leftist. Shit I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is actually employed by my boss[3].
I guess I was getting a bit sidetracked in the previous paragraph, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. You're interacting with these people a lot and due to your reasoning (which makes great sense for sure, just unfortunate that the people you got sucked. I guess it is true that those who want to be mods, generally are not people that should be mods lol) you weigh their viewpoints highly. Which makes sense. Their viewpoints just suck ass, because they're shitty people. This would of course result in you not being able to foresee something like this happening - Though you probably expected a bit of a struggle sesh, but not this dumpsterfire. And then when people react as we've reacted,[4] of course you would try to handle it. And being a good considerate person, you make sure to loop in the other side - the mods who made this decision. So you listen to the mods about how to handle this strugglesesh. The same mods who are chauvinistic toxic cliquey assholes. Listening to their advice has then only gone on to make things worse. You, being a good person, have tried to handle things as best you could. Releasing statements to make the process more transparent, replying to users with statements you've been adviced about from the mods, constantly trying to keep people informed without blowing the lid off things. Trying to stop drama comms and so on make great sense.
Taking the actions you've taken throughout this thread makes sense, please don't beat yourself up about it.
Don't get me wrong, I am mad and disappointed, but not at you. I think the fact you are still as patient as you are, as able to keep a light tone, able to listen to - or at the very least appear to be listening to - a userbase that has been (rightfully) inflamed, is impressive and should be applauded. The fact you're not a toxic douchebag after interacting with that set of mods for so long is very telling of your character. I'm not trying to kiss ass here, I just think it seems like you're a bit down about how this whole thing has gone, and I really need you to understand you handled it about as best as it could be handled, given your colleagues being completely useless rags.
Please don't go away or hand the reins over to one of those pissbabies carcosa, please don't let that clique ruin this place. Please do not step down. You are incredibly important to the health of this site and, speaking on a personal note, you are a fantastic person to have around and I am happy to see you in the position at the helm of the site
Going forward
I don't think this is the last time this situation will erupt, if nothing changes about how moderation is handled and how site changes are handled.
Keeping the two comms open just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Not kicking the mods who wrote that shit out is also a bad sign, for the direction this whole thing is headed.
I would really recommend that mod discussions aren't anonymous anymore. Have the matrix board or whatever it is, but make it so everyone can go and look what is being posted, just like with the modlog. The only time discussions should be anonymous, should be when there is a risk to operational security, and not a vague risk, an actual one. It should also be announced whenever those anonymous discussions take place and explained why they have to be anonymous.
Early in the site days we went away from displaying which mod took an action in the modlog, and just blaming everything on automod. I think reverting that would go a very long way to bust a lot of this cliquey shit.
When users notice certain users get special treatment, they get banned for commenting on it, until the situation becomes so egregious that it cannot be hidden anymore. Not allowing the userbase to call out bad mod practice, is also not good. We've closed both userunion and feedback because the mods don't like the "drama" - Getting called out for shitty behaviour. We really need a comm where the userbase is free to voice concerns and grievances. That would also go a long way towards avoiding these situations in the future. And this time mods shouldn't remove posts just because they dislike them, that's pissbaby shit.
Edit: Please don't step down because you feel like you've done wrong. If you ever do step down, let it be because you need time away, not because of some dumbass strugglesession, the site would be worse off without you. Especially in the middle of this shitstorm.
Edit: Formatting
Sorry for using a gendered term, but I think they were always boys ↩︎
not that longevity matters, because the site doesn't belong to anyone, but if we were gonna have to entertain that silly idea, it most certainly does not belong to someone who doesn't know about John Kerry or whatever. See how silly that sounds? That's because the site is what the site is, it doesn't belong to anyone, it doesn't need to be managed. That's not good for "culture" or for "growth" or for whatever other argument these asscracks cook up next. ↩︎
If some mod is gonna remove this for fed-jacketing, just give me a heads-up instead and I'll edit out the obvious joke ↩︎
Which has been very reasonable until getting misgendered, where it then became even more reasonable ↩︎
I don't want to lose one of our most visible, transparent admins. I don't know the rest from a bar of soap let alone the others who were yucking ut up like old pals in the 1.2k comment prior thread. L for public relations and makes the site management even more opaque imo
Edit: it's not like we were calling for their head or anything either :/ igi if they want to step fown but still :(
Yeah there's been one good admin and that's been carcosa. One person who has done an incredible job of actually letting this site be transparent, despite there being an obvious clique who just wants to run it all like their shitty little mean girl clubhouse
I don't know the rest from a bar of soap let alone the others who were yucking it up like old pals in the 1.2k comment prior thread. L for public relations and makes the site management even more opaque imo
yeah, this is an unfortunate (but potentially unavoidable?) side effect of how we're doing admin anonymity, only very outspoken admins become familiar to the community, even if the rest have been here the whole time, which I believe most have, none of us feel like we know them.
the gags in the old thread I thought were mostly funny/fine but the overall point of "I don't know these people" stands
Struck me as a bit tone deaf/assumed familiarity (even though they're essentially the same people who'd be posting alongside us on alts) given the context. Also that jt was only the recently appointed admin coming in to comment with none of the others responsible for the decision just highlighted their absence. I know this is internet drama but it's left a serious sour taste in my mouth :/
Also that jt was only the recently appointed admin coming in to comment with none of the others responsible for the decision just highlighted their absence.
I think a lot of this has just been messy because of timezones tbh. the other admin accounts are pretty much inactive, and carcosa can't be online 24/7
I think a lot of this has just been messy because of timezones tbh. the other admin accounts are pretty much inactive, and carcosa can't be online 24/7
Also fair ty for giving me a bit of extra perspective
I don't know if I'll be able to respond to all of this and I suppose most of it isn't relevant to me as I will consider returning to the admin team and even to continue making announcements here and there but I am going to step away from decision-making. I brought these mods onto the team, I set up the decision-making process, I drafted the statement and made the final edit on the follow-up comment. I believe there needs to be accountability and me allowing the old & new admins to take the site forward is an appropriate consequence.
You don't need to respond to anything in my post, no worries. There's a whole thread calling for your return.
Carcosa you are too good. I hope you will step back into decision making, but I understand your thought process. I disagree with it. There should be accountability, but you've been held accountable. You've offered to step down, and you've been dunked on like none other. Not every mistake needs to be punished with drastic consequences, I know this will be a learning experience and to be frank I'd rather have you involved in the process, instead of someone who will then have to make the same experience themselves. You are knowledgeable and your input is valuable, it would be a shame not to be able to draw on that for the big and small decisions.
I would have phrased it more or less the same myself, had I been in carcosas position, because I expect that phrasing would be the most likely to get them to go along with it.
capitulating to liberals in this way is kinda like the old quote about nonviolence, it only works if your enemy has a conscience, and most liberals have none.
But yeah, I don't think it was horrible or malicious, just the timing made for a bad look. carcosa said as much, and I'm satisfied with that acknowledgement, I wish they would stay.
Yeah I would do that too in order to get someone from a hostile instance to help me out. I lie all the time in my day to day life when I interact with people I have to convince to do something. That's what you do.
In response to @CARCOSA@hexbear.nets last post in the previous thread and their announcement about stepping down
Carcosa, please don't step down. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, what is wrong is not reflecting upon those mistakes, and you are very capable of self-reflection. Expecting someone to operate without error forever is ludicrous, an impossible demand. You are about the best person we could have in the position. You are patient, considerate and capable of balancing a great many groups, even when getting treated like the whipping boy.[1]
You haven't made any real errors in handling all this. Mistakes were made, but that's not really on you. It's obvious you've got a clique of mods that whip up a frenzy among themselves and then shield their shitty opinions with leftist rhetoric. Ironically that is what makes hexbear most like a real-world org lol. You probably interact with them a lot and you experience their positive side as well. Something like this was bound to happen with that going on for long enough time. You get lambasted by these dorks, they use rhetoric like calling the users "cishet white men" despite most of this sites' userbase being queer.
I've been thinking about this since the last post about chauvinism "scaring people away" and then looking in the thread to see how it was celebrated. Hell, I've been thinking about since we talked about closing the news mega because some users didn't like "the vibe". They talked of chauvinism back then too. Funny how it seems to mean "things I don't like" and not actually being descriptive of chauvinism.
Just like in this thread, the very same people who act like toxic assholes were partying that now "finally" hexbear was becoming a good site open for all. As long as those people completely line up with what the little clique act like. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but I probably should have. I can't speak on behalf of women, on account of not being one, but I personally do not experience this site as inherently masculine.
The only thing that really turns me off from this site, is the toxic and hostile clique that for some reason is allowed to act in a way that would get all others banned, and for some reason are listened to and taken more seriously than the rest of the site. There's a group who seems to think this place is their personal project, despite just being a link in a long chain of mods, despite not being here for very long[2] The main thing that keeps me from recommending this place to my girlfriends - and my enbiefriends - and my boyfriends - is that clique of needlessly hostile, agressive stereotype of an online leftist. Shit I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is actually employed by my boss[3].
I guess I was getting a bit sidetracked in the previous paragraph, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. You're interacting with these people a lot and due to your reasoning (which makes great sense for sure, just unfortunate that the people you got sucked. I guess it is true that those who want to be mods, generally are not people that should be mods lol) you weigh their viewpoints highly. Which makes sense. Their viewpoints just suck ass, because they're shitty people. This would of course result in you not being able to foresee something like this happening - Though you probably expected a bit of a struggle sesh, but not this dumpsterfire. And then when people react as we've reacted,[4] of course you would try to handle it. And being a good considerate person, you make sure to loop in the other side - the mods who made this decision. So you listen to the mods about how to handle this strugglesesh. The same mods who are chauvinistic toxic cliquey assholes. Listening to their advice has then only gone on to make things worse. You, being a good person, have tried to handle things as best you could. Releasing statements to make the process more transparent, replying to users with statements you've been adviced about from the mods, constantly trying to keep people informed without blowing the lid off things. Trying to stop drama comms and so on make great sense.
Taking the actions you've taken throughout this thread makes sense, please don't beat yourself up about it.
Don't get me wrong, I am mad and disappointed, but not at you. I think the fact you are still as patient as you are, as able to keep a light tone, able to listen to - or at the very least appear to be listening to - a userbase that has been (rightfully) inflamed, is impressive and should be applauded. The fact you're not a toxic douchebag after interacting with that set of mods for so long is very telling of your character. I'm not trying to kiss ass here, I just think it seems like you're a bit down about how this whole thing has gone, and I really need you to understand you handled it about as best as it could be handled, given your colleagues being completely useless rags.
Please don't go away or hand the reins over to one of those pissbabies carcosa, please don't let that clique ruin this place. Please do not step down. You are incredibly important to the health of this site and, speaking on a personal note, you are a fantastic person to have around and I am happy to see you in the position at the helm of the site
Going forward
I don't think this is the last time this situation will erupt, if nothing changes about how moderation is handled and how site changes are handled.
Keeping the two comms open just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Not kicking the mods who wrote that shit out is also a bad sign, for the direction this whole thing is headed.
I would really recommend that mod discussions aren't anonymous anymore. Have the matrix board or whatever it is, but make it so everyone can go and look what is being posted, just like with the modlog. The only time discussions should be anonymous, should be when there is a risk to operational security, and not a vague risk, an actual one. It should also be announced whenever those anonymous discussions take place and explained why they have to be anonymous.
Early in the site days we went away from displaying which mod took an action in the modlog, and just blaming everything on automod. I think reverting that would go a very long way to bust a lot of this cliquey shit.
When users notice certain users get special treatment, they get banned for commenting on it, until the situation becomes so egregious that it cannot be hidden anymore. Not allowing the userbase to call out bad mod practice, is also not good. We've closed both userunion and feedback because the mods don't like the "drama" - Getting called out for shitty behaviour. We really need a comm where the userbase is free to voice concerns and grievances. That would also go a long way towards avoiding these situations in the future. And this time mods shouldn't remove posts just because they dislike them, that's pissbaby shit.
Edit: Please don't step down because you feel like you've done wrong. If you ever do step down, let it be because you need time away, not because of some dumbass strugglesession, the site would be worse off without you. Especially in the middle of this shitstorm.
Edit: Formatting
Sorry for using a gendered term, but I think they were always boys ↩︎
not that longevity matters, because the site doesn't belong to anyone, but if we were gonna have to entertain that silly idea, it most certainly does not belong to someone who doesn't know about John Kerry or whatever. See how silly that sounds? That's because the site is what the site is, it doesn't belong to anyone, it doesn't need to be managed. That's not good for "culture" or for "growth" or for whatever other argument these asscracks cook up next. ↩︎
If some mod is gonna remove this for fed-jacketing, just give me a heads-up instead and I'll edit out the obvious joke ↩︎
Which has been very reasonable until getting misgendered, where it then became even more reasonable ↩︎
I don't want to lose one of our most visible, transparent admins. I don't know the rest from a bar of soap let alone the others who were yucking ut up like old pals in the 1.2k comment prior thread. L for public relations and makes the site management even more opaque imo
Edit: it's not like we were calling for their head or anything either :/ igi if they want to step fown but still :(
Yeah there's been one good admin and that's been carcosa. One person who has done an incredible job of actually letting this site be transparent, despite there being an obvious clique who just wants to run it all like their shitty little mean girl clubhouse
yeah, this is an unfortunate (but potentially unavoidable?) side effect of how we're doing admin anonymity, only very outspoken admins become familiar to the community, even if the rest have been here the whole time, which I believe most have, none of us feel like we know them.
the gags in the old thread I thought were mostly funny/fine but the overall point of "I don't know these people" stands
Struck me as a bit tone deaf/assumed familiarity (even though they're essentially the same people who'd be posting alongside us on alts) given the context. Also that jt was only the recently appointed admin coming in to comment with none of the others responsible for the decision just highlighted their absence. I know this is internet drama but it's left a serious sour taste in my mouth :/
yeah fair
I think a lot of this has just been messy because of timezones tbh. the other admin accounts are pretty much inactive, and carcosa can't be online 24/7
Also fair
ty for giving me a bit of extra perspective
I don't know if I'll be able to respond to all of this and I suppose most of it isn't relevant to me as I will consider returning to the admin team and even to continue making announcements here and there but I am going to step away from decision-making. I brought these mods onto the team, I set up the decision-making process, I drafted the statement and made the final edit on the follow-up comment. I believe there needs to be accountability and me allowing the old & new admins to take the site forward is an appropriate consequence.
You don't need to respond to anything in my post, no worries. There's a whole thread calling for your return.
Carcosa you are too good. I hope you will step back into decision making, but I understand your thought process. I disagree with it. There should be accountability, but you've been held accountable. You've offered to step down, and you've been dunked on like none other. Not every mistake needs to be punished with drastic consequences, I know this will be a learning experience and to be frank I'd rather have you involved in the process, instead of someone who will then have to make the same experience themselves. You are knowledgeable and your input is valuable, it would be a shame not to be able to draw on that for the big and small decisions.
Guess what
Chickenbutt?
Exactly 💯
:sweat: anyway I edited it
Edit: Moved to be it's own post, not a response in the thread
I have some qualms, but honestly don't have the energy or desire to relitigate it in this thread. Hard agree about them being a good admin
I would have phrased it more or less the same myself, had I been in carcosas position, because I expect that phrasing would be the most likely to get them to go along with it.
capitulating to liberals in this way is kinda like the old quote about nonviolence, it only works if your enemy has a conscience, and most liberals have none.
But yeah, I don't think it was horrible or malicious, just the timing made for a bad look. carcosa said as much, and I'm satisfied with that acknowledgement, I wish they would stay.
Yeah that's a fine way of going about it
They said in the other thread that they were lying in this image
Yeah I would do that too in order to get someone from a hostile instance to help me out. I lie all the time in my day to day life when I interact with people I have to convince to do something. That's what you do.