The mods behind this statement should come forward and c/selfcrit. So many people have pointed out the the jacketing the userbase here as cishet white Reddit debatebros is fucked up and hurtful among other issues, and they are cowards for hiding behind CARCOSA. If you have contempt for the users then say it with your whole fucking chest under your own name

Wat. Nobody, absolutely nobody, wanted Carcosa to step down. We just want to shitpost. Let us shitpost, Carcosa come back, and everything will be whole again. It's so simple it does not need to be more complicated than that.

ALL of this was clearly shortsighted and a mistake. All behind the scenes communications (between mods, admins, and with other instances), trying to implement changes without the community even being aware (let alone being behind them), and finally mods and admins stepping down. I mean seriously, take a step back and tell me this doesn’t absolutely reek of wrecker shit.

Do we seriously think that the squeaky wheel for moving the site further from “white cishet male vibes” would be adding a barrier to posting unless you engage in debatebro dialectics? I mean that’s comically white cishet male vibes.

Let’s be so real right now. Undo everything. Start over. That includes admins unilaterally unadminning. Theyve done their self crit and it seemed as genuine as it could be, now they should ask the community for forgiveness and I’m almost certain theyll get it. If they don’t, then that’s that and they bow out gracefully, but at this point (unless they resigned for mental health issues) I feel as though they owe it to the community to have a say. The community deserves this whole situation to be approached from the very beginning. This includes deciding whether a debate even needs to be held regarding the old or new comms. No poweruser bullshit about trying to change site culture or making it more serious without community input.

I am a mod on /agitprop. If people like the idea, I’m more than happy to have a weekly Megathread running parallel to the standing news Megathread that is limited strictly to serious discussion, close readings, and actual counter propaganda about current events and other cultural zeitgeist issues. We have plenty of great users ready to put great effort into their posts if they’ll get noticed. If you need any evidence, look at the current pinned thread on /agitprop which has had (knock on wood) NO modding to it thus far and been completely on topic and FILLED with high effort posting. Stopping people from being unserious and having fun will not make them be serious, it will just end their engagement. Plenty of people come here to do both things, myself included. If you like your shitposting, you can keep it.

Have faith that the community is good as if you are a part of it, and I promise you’ll have a much more fruitful experience than trying to change it from the top down.

ITT:

Show

[also +1 to reject @CARCOSA@hexbear.net resignation]

I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind "the white cishet man vibes" part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn't change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted

I think carcosa going to self crit about the moderation process that lead to backlash is the exact reason I like them being a community mouthpiece and decision maker. we all make mistakes, but owning up to that, especially to some people who are pissed off about it, is very good community leadership

I feel like a lot of the mods would do well to consider why this shitty image macro is so descriptive of them

Show

A mod is a janitor. Your job is to keep the vibe up and the place clean. You're not some ruler or something lol, I get it if this is the first time you're placed in a position where you can tell people what to do, it can go to your head. It shouldn't though, you're just a mod.

First off about Carcosa stepping down, if this is not about your mental health, please don't. This isn't on you, if anything you have more than proved your capability of being a great admin by remaining civil and keeping a cool head despite the clusterfuck of a thread that was the last one.

I think everyone here can agree that the old comm had racist connotations once researching the name, I also had no idea until I looked it up. The real problem with the changes is that you're essentially trying to force a culture change on the site. While I'm personally not at all opposed to having a community for doing more serious counterpropaganda work in an organized manner, this doesn't cover the need most users here (including myself) have of simply taking a dump on stuff we see that pisses us off, without having to do serious Marxist analysis and refer to sources etc.

I believe we should keep the dredge tank just like it is, rename the dunk tank to one of the names proposed already in a recent post about it, and open up a new community for serious counterpropaganda work.

A lot of the more pointless struggle sessions on this site wouldn't happen if we could acknowledge that some mods don't actually want to participate on a website, they want a discord channel that they get to decide how everything goes, but at the same time are addicted to internet points so they can't leave

I do not desire @CARCOSA@hexbear.net's resignation or the removal of anti-dunk moderators from the site. I am very angry, I am very upset, but my anger is born not from hatred but from the knowledge that my comrades are knowledgeable, skilled, and capable of great things. I am angry because this seems like a sharp departure from their character.

A brittle sword breaks on the enemy’s armor. A well tempered sword bends and returns to true. If we are to be effective we must be like a tempered sword - Capable of sustaining great impacts without breaking. Part of this is the traditional Marxist practice of self criticism, but another part of this is love.

Having had a chance to sleep on the matter I can see that some of our comrades oppose the dunk tank and the concept of dunking out of a firm belief that it is harmful to their fellows. If I am understanding their position they view abandoning the practice of dunking as a means of protecting their comrades from further harm. They are seeking to act out of a place of compassion.

Others of our comrades have put forward good faith statements expressing that they experience the dunk tank as a safe space in which they can build up their identity and their conviction that the world of liberal capitalism is not inevitable, nor is it natural, nor is it neutral. The group practice of highlighting the absurdity, hypocrisy, and cruelty of liberal behavior shines a bright light that cuts through the fog of capitalist realism. For some of these users that light is the beacon that keeps them off of the rocks of despair and doomerism.

Many of us are extremely isolated due to identity, illness, or simply having no comrades nearby that they can spend time with. For these comrades and others Hexbear is a critical social third space that provides a desperately needed shelter. There is much discussion now of the “Male Loneliness Crisis”. We recognize here that crisis was manufactured by fascists to exploit boys who have been left horribly alienated and isolated by decaying capitalism. Many youth have no strong role models or venues for participating in community. Without these things they are unable to form a strong identity from which they can emerge to critically engage with the world. The identity is the fortress to which they can return to examine what they have learned, choose what to keep and what to discard.

For teenage children that fortress of identity has never been solid. They have always been thrown too and fro by the causal violence and repression of a liberal society largely hostile to their need for safety, comfort, instruction, compassion, and play. Enormous violence has been done to children, and enormous violence has been inflicted by those children, now adults, who were formed in to cruel and violent people.

Thus the fascist constructed the alt-right and the alt-right pipeline using social media as a weapon to direct boys in to hideous misogynistic spaces that swallow them up and barrage them with hatred, fear, and lies as they grow in to men. The result, as we all know, is a dangerous subculture of fascist footsoldiers ready for mobilization.

Why have I discussed this matter? Because it is Hexbear’s equal opposite. Hexbear was born out of state repression of marxist spaces, ordered by the hegemonic demands of capital, carried out by willing collaborators at Reddit. A small but important space for unapologetic Marxists and Anarchists to gather and participate in a venue where there views were not socially ostracized was temporarily created. This space was crushed by the forces of Capital. The great drama of leftist repression carried out in miniature, wiping out one of the few accessible leftist spaces in the Anglosphere.

Hexbear, as silly as this may sound, was the seed of hope carried from that place. We were initially called together by the Chapo Trap House Podcast, who in turn gained fame as surrogates for Bernie Sanders. Chapo Traphouse were the main characters of the “Dirtbag Left”. This social movement arose among young people who recognized that Capitalism had failed utterly, but also that no good faith discussion of leftist theory and praxis would be allowed in Liberal spaces or discourse. Our answer was to go on the attack – Recognizing that we would never be treated with good faith we chose to spurn good faith and tear down the walls of civility behind which the violence of Liberal Democracy is hidden. In embracing vulgarity, mockery, and cruelty we sought to show that Liberal civility was a lie concealing unbelievable inhuman violence. Our vulgar defense of strong humanistic convictions to counter their false politeness and piety. It was, in a fashion, the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. The Dirtbag Left transgressed against social norms by directly and aggressively mocking the hypocrisy of the empire.

If you’ll pardon me for invoking a favorite of sealioning debate bros, this is a description of the Cynics of old from Christian Agustus Brandius writing in the 18th century

There are four reasons why the Cynics are so named. First because of the indifference of their way of life, for they make a cult of indifference and, like dogs, eat and make love in public, go barefoot, and sleep in tubs and at crossroads. The second reason is that the dog is a shameless animal, and they make a cult of shamelessness, not as being beneath modesty, but as superior to it. The third reason is that the dog is a good guard, and they guard the tenets of their philosophy. The fourth reason is that the dog is a discriminating animal which can distinguish between its friends and enemies. So do they recognize as friends those who are suited to philosophy, and receive them kindly, while those unfitted they drive away, like dogs, by barking at them.

I see in this statement much of the core of Hexbear’s beliefs and methods. First, that this is a group of stoic people who recognize the horrors of the world and do not shy from them. We do not retreat from our terror at the violence we face each day. We do not deny the violence the empire inflicts on people around the world so we can pretend that violence does not exist. We accept this violence, we accept our terror, and we continue to live in spite of it.

Second, that we will not be shamed for knowing what is true. If the Cynics can be called a cult of shamelessness then so can Hexbear. No excuses are made here for racism, transphobia or bigotry. There are no cries of “Free Speech” here. We do not pretend that there is any reason to listen to the hatred of bigots and reactionaries, we do not make apologies for our beliefs, and we do not allow the lies and propaganda of Capitalism to discourage us. This is a place were gender theory, anti-racism, anti-imperialism, intersectional feminism, and anti-capitalism are painted proudly on the banners we carry before us. We will not be shamed for knowing the truth and taking action to defend the truth.

Third, if a dog is a good guard, then so Hexbear is a good… erm.. bear… guard. Idk the metaphor isn’t good. None-the-less, this is a place where shitposting and silliness are strongly interwoven with critical analysis, discussion, investigation, and self-criticism. To participate in Hexbear is to be constantly learning. We have members from many parts of the globe and all walks of life. People with very different life experiences can come together to share what they know, remove false beliefs, and grow together. In this manner we guard our theory, our praxis, our comrades, and ourselves.

Fourth; We know who our enemies are! There are no questions here about what forces create and sustain the cruelty and oppression faced by the people of earth! Alone out of all modern ideological frameworks The Left is able to recognize, name, and explain our enemies and their motivations! This gives us enormous power that our enemies lack. The truth is not a perfect weapon but it is a powerful one, and we can wield it as a sword that will remain sharp no matter how outnumbered we are. Our foes are many and mighty, but still they can be cut!

And why have I said all of this?

Hexbear is a community of people who share beliefs, knowledge, and principles. I have not met anyone on Hexbear who is not resolute in their beliefs. And people with strong beliefs often come in to conflict! We have all of us encountered hardship and won knowledge at personal cost, suffering trauma, humiliation, and pain! Knowledge gained at such great cost is very precious and should not be relinquished easily. Moreover, we are all of us surrounded by enemies who exert hegemonic control over the knowledge, beliefs, and values of society. In our day to day lives we constantly encounter enemies who, if they have the power, will harm us. This causes us to adopt an entirely justified vigilance with which we seek to protect ourselves from distortions, propaganda, self-doubt, and even physical violence. This is a very important tool for surviving hellworld!

However, what happens when we at last arrive in a harbor which, if not entirely safe, is at least shielded from the brutality of the storm? We remain warriors, armed and vigilant. We are quick to draw our swords and unleash our battlecries because this is necessary in many other spaces in our lives! When we have lived so long among enemies it is not easy to trust, nor is it safe to trust easily.

So, we often come to blows. These struggle sessions have been a defining feature of the site changing it’s shape and membership numerous times. We have cut away and chased off many people who were not comrades or could not tolerate this community. The community today is smaller, but also focused with a stronger understanding of itself.

When we come to blows we are, generally, not acting in bad faith or for a love of violence. We are people of very strong convictions and when we make a decision we will stick doggedly to that decisio

No longer going to comment on the comm changes because whatever it's a website but putting my vote in for not allowing @CARCOSA@hexbear.net to resign.

Like some others, I have also come here specifically and only to request that @CARCOSA@hexbear.net remain in their position. If you're reading this, Carcosa, I have no doubt that you know very well that I am extremely critical of the mods of this site and of any site. And yet I am left with a positive impression of you. You have seemed sincere and and well-intentioned any time I have interacted with you, and my primary issue with your role in the site is that you don't have the time, energy, or processing power to simply take over all of the admin and mod roles personally.

would love some expansion on the whole "dunking is white cis guy vibes" thing

In response to @CARCOSA@hexbear.nets last post in the previous thread and their announcement about stepping down

Carcosa, please don't step down. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, what is wrong is not reflecting upon those mistakes, and you are very capable of self-reflection. Expecting someone to operate without error forever is ludicrous, an impossible demand. You are about the best person we could have in the position. You are patient, considerate and capable of balancing a great many groups, even when getting treated like the whipping boy.^[1]
You haven't made any real errors in handling all this. Mistakes were made, but that's not really on you. It's obvious you've got a clique of mods that whip up a frenzy among themselves and then shield their shitty opinions with leftist rhetoric. Ironically that is what makes hexbear most like a real-world org lol. You probably interact with them a lot and you experience their positive side as well. Something like this was bound to happen with that going on for long enough time. You get lambasted by these dorks, they use rhetoric like calling the users "cishet white men" despite most of this sites' userbase being queer.

I've been thinking about this since the last post about chauvinism "scaring people away" and then looking in the thread to see how it was celebrated. Hell, I've been thinking about since we talked about closing the news mega because some users didn't like "the vibe". They talked of chauvinism back then too. Funny how it seems to mean "things I don't like" and not actually being descriptive of chauvinism.
Just like in this thread, the very same people who act like toxic assholes were partying that now "finally" hexbear was becoming a good site open for all. As long as those people completely line up with what the little clique act like. I didn't want to say anything at the time, but I probably should have. I can't speak on behalf of women, on account of not being one, but I personally do not experience this site as inherently masculine.

The only thing that really turns me off from this site, is the toxic and hostile clique that for some reason is allowed to act in a way that would get all others banned, and for some reason are listened to and taken more seriously than the rest of the site. There's a group who seems to think this place is their personal project, despite just being a link in a long chain of mods, despite not being here for very long^[2] The main thing that keeps me from recommending this place to my girlfriends - and my enbiefriends - and my boyfriends - is that clique of needlessly hostile, agressive stereotype of an online leftist. Shit I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is actually employed by my boss^[3].

I guess I was getting a bit sidetracked in the previous paragraph, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. You're interacting with these people a lot and due to your reasoning (which makes great sense for sure, just unfortunate that the people you got sucked. I guess it is true that those who want to be mods, generally are not people that should be mods lol) you weigh their viewpoints highly. Which makes sense. Their viewpoints just suck ass, because they're shitty people. This would of course result in you not being able to foresee something like this happening - Though you probably expected a bit of a struggle sesh, but not this dumpsterfire. And then when people react as we've reacted,^[4] of course you would try to handle it. And being a good considerate person, you make sure to loop in the other side - the mods who made this decision. So you listen to the mods about how to handle this strugglesesh. The same mods who are chauvinistic toxic cliquey assholes. Listening to their advice has then only gone on to make things worse. You, being a good person, have tried to handle things as best you could. Releasing statements to make the process more transparent, replying to users with statements you've been adviced about from the mods, constantly trying to keep people informed without blowing the lid off things. Trying to stop drama comms and so on make great sense.

Taking the actions you've taken throughout this thread makes sense, please don't beat yourself up about it.
Don't get me wrong, I am mad and disappointed, but not at you. I think the fact you are still as patient as you are, as able to keep a light tone, able to listen to - or at the very least appear to be listening to - a userbase that has been (rightfully) inflamed, is impressive and should be applauded. The fact you're not a toxic douchebag after interacting with that set of mods for so long is very telling of your character. I'm not trying to kiss ass here, I just think it seems like you're a bit down about how this whole thing has gone, and I really need you to understand you handled it about as best as it could be handled, given your colleagues being completely useless rags.

Please don't go away or hand the reins over to one of those pissbabies carcosa, please don't let that clique ruin this place. Please do not step down. You are incredibly important to the health of this site and, speaking on a personal note, you are a fantastic person to have around and I am happy to see you in the position at the helm of the site

Going forward

I don't think this is the last time this situation will erupt, if nothing changes about how moderation is handled and how site changes are handled.
Keeping the two comms open just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Not kicking the mods who wrote that shit out is also a bad sign, for the direction this whole thing is headed.
I would really recommend that mod discussions aren't anonymous anymore. Have the matrix board or whatever it is, but make it so everyone can go and look what is being posted, just like with the modlog. The only time discussions should be anonymous, should be when there is a risk to operational security, and not a vague risk, an actual one. It should also be announced whenever those anonymous discussions take place and explained why they have to be anonymous.
Early in the site days we went away from displaying which mod took an action in the modlog, and just blaming everything on automod. I think reverting that would go a very long way to bust a lot of this cliquey shit.
When users notice certain users get special treatment, they get banned for commenting on it, until the situation becomes so egregious that it cannot be hidden anymore. Not allowing the userbase to call out bad mod practice, is also not good. We've closed both userunion and feedback because the mods don't like the "drama" - Getting called out for shitty behaviour. We really need a comm where the userbase is free to voice concerns and grievances. That would also go a long way towards avoiding these situations in the future. And this time mods shouldn't remove posts just because they dislike them, that's pissbaby shit.

Edit: Please don't step down because you feel like you've done wrong. If you ever do step down, let it be because you need time away, not because of some dumbass strugglesession, the site would be worse off without you. Especially in the middle of this shitstorm.

Edit: Formatting

Hexbear is fine.

We're comfy.

Changing the name of the comms is an easy decision, but trying to amputate comms that perform a useful function for bonding and cathartic relief is a step too far. We need to face the fact that hexbear as a community isn't especially erudite compared to other leftist spaces - our main aspect is providing comfort and awareness in the face of what is currently a world that stands against us. That's an important function. We shouldn't be damaging ourselves in attempts to appease lemmylibs.