Who is a PMC lib, who is working class? It's obviously not office/factory anymore, most people don't work in factories, right? Why was the focus in communist thought on factories and not, servants, drivers, nannies, maids, cooks and secretaries of the rich – they seem to be easy to radicalise because they see the shittiness and incompetence of the rich day to day, and more importantly are most needing of a union because of the likelihood of abuse by their bosses.

Was it because they don't exactly work together? Can't exactly chat and radicalise? Hard to strike? How do we bring gig economy workers together when the same barriers apply to radicalise them?

  • Awoo [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    A combination of two things. Absolutely massive sections of the community were either working in industry (factory or heavy-industry like mining/forging/etc) or in farming.

    Quantity of people you can reach that will group together is a big factor here. Factories have many things that are strategically beneficial:

    1. Lots of workers.

    2. Poor conditions and treatment of workers.

    3. Manual work that pisses off the workers all by itself. Nobody enjoys it.

    4. Owners who can be easily identified and typically own MANY factories.

    5. Workers that will identify themselves with their work and build a solidarity with others that do their kind of work. Everyone knows it is shit and everyone mutually recognises they're all struggling together.

    6. Factory worker was an identity people held. Steel worker was an identity people held. Miner was an identity people held. Much like "cop" is an identity cops hold.


    If you wanted to target gig economy workers I think the very first step in achieving that is building an identity for gig economy workers. They must consider themselves gig workers first before you can really tap into the same emotions that worked with the factories. They need to feel like they're not just a person doing gig work in the short term while they seek out something more permanent, while they have that mindset they will not see it as a struggle worth investing in. A miner and a factory worker have a family, they live locally nearby, they know that the mine is the only place for them to work and they know they can't uproot their family and children from their friends and grandparents to just go work somewhere else at the drop of a hat. They know they're a miner and they'll be working in the mine for the next 30 years, they can quickly understand that their conditions in the mine requires longterm organisation with their coworkers.

    The gig worker must first identify as a gig worker, not a person temporarily taking some gig work in-between other things. This also applies to many other jobs -- Taxi driver? Cleaner? Retail worker? Nannies? Maids? Secretaries? Large quantities of people in these roles see these roles as things they are passing through and not things they want to do permanently.

    It is easier to organise people that actually believe they're going to be doing their current job for the next 50 years. It is easier for people to see orgs as things they need to join when they know they'll be in a job for 50 years. The decrease in org membership has coincided with a MASSIVE decrease in the amount of time people spend in any one job. In fact, most things recommend switching jobs as often as every 2-5 years now.

    • grylarski [they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      Excellent post, additionally the expectation to migrate for jobs prevents you from meaningfully investing in community.

      • Awoo [she/her]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Exactly.

        And this all comes down to the neoliberal "globalisation" project. Dismantle industry and outsource it to the periphery, atomise the workers into endlessly job changing and migrating units to dismantle their capability to be community-oriented, to have naturally forming identities attached to their workplaces, to have long-term visions of their relationship with their workplace.

        Countering this at a large scale requires an all-new approach. I am convinced that we must build identities for them to fill some of the gaps that have been created. If the "gig economy" is to be a vocally talked about thing then the "gig worker" needs to be an identity and those workers must see themselves as in gig work for at least several years before you will meaningfully get them to think of the work they do within their whole life's context.

        The workers of the past era saw their work and workplaces within the context of their whole life. The workers of today see their work within the context of something they might be doing for the next 2-5 years. What happens after that? Who knows, we are encouraged not to plan that far ahead.

        This whole group as I see it has been referred to as the "precariat" for a variety of reasons and I am on-board with the theory that you can radicalise members of the precariat via recognition that they have no future in sight. The precariety of people's conditions is where gains can be made without any work at all -- what is in your future? What is in that gig worker's future? How does he see himself working out of it? When?... When the members of the precariat are confronted with the feeling that they have no future they radicalise hard and really fucking fast, that or they jokerfy but I see jokerfication as a stepping stone into the left in the first place.

        • the_river_cass [she/her]
          ·
          4 years ago

          huh... I didn't expect decent class analysis from the guardian, even if the prescriptions/warnings are a little off

          • Awoo [she/her]
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            edit-2
            4 years ago

            There's a few people they allow to write rare one-offs for them that are occasionally excellent. I pay attention to anything written by professors or communists. Ash Sarkar occasionally gets to write for them and is worth paying attention to despite being a trot, I always have time for Owen Jones too.

            Obviously The Guardian as a whole is dogshit but here in the UK edition it does actually get used as a vessel for some good things... Nothing truly radical is allowed of course. But some good analysis and some good socdem (actually socdem properly left of Bernie) stuff that includes class.

          • Awoo [she/her]
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            edit-2
            4 years ago

            Yeaaaah I like to dig it out from time to time. It demonstrated exceptional foresight when it was written and showed how some people were clearly on the bleeding edge of thought. The writer (Guy Standing) is professor of oriental and african studies at the University of London. I don't know how good his politics are but this take was bang on. I wonder what his thoughts on China are given he obviously must cover them a lot in his work.

            • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
              ·
              4 years ago

              Found this one from 2014.

              Since the crash of 2008 and during the neoliberal retrenchment known as austerity, many commentators have muttered that the left is dead, watching social democrats in their timidity lose elections and respond by becoming ever more timid and neoliberal. They deserve their defeats. As long as they orient their posturing to the "squeezed middle", appealing to their perception of a middle class while placating the elite, they will depend on the mistakes of the right for occasional victories, giving them office but not power.

              Today that class is the precariat, with its distinctive relations of production, relations of distribution and relations to the state. Its consciousness is a mix of deprivation, insecurity, frustration and anxiety. But most in it do not yearn for a retreat to the past. It says to the old left: "My dreams are not in your ballot box."

              The third struggle is for redistribution. Here, too, there is progress. The social democratic, lukewarm left has no clothes, and neither does the atavistic left harrying at its heels with empty threats, wanting to turn the clock back to some illusionary golden age. They would not understand the subversive piece of precariat graffiti: "The worst thing would be to return to the old normal."

              The struggle will show that with globalisation a new distribution system must be constructed, far more radical than that offered by a living wage, however desirable that might be.

              This guy definitely knows his stuff. From "fuck voting" to "fuck a return to normal". Also he's definitely calling for non-electoral revolution and shits on soc-dems so that's a plus.

              • Awoo [she/her]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Interesting. Yeah I think his analysis in these two pieces is spot on and he's a man worth listening to. Sounds like a good professor to have. I wonder what his students have to say about him.

                The struggle will show that with globalisation a new distribution system must be constructed, far more radical than that offered by a living wage, however desirable that might be.

                This is what the bourgeois class just started talking about with their "great reset". Something he predicted 6 years ago. This man needs a channel through which to express his analysis more frequently, I need more of it.

                • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  4 years ago

                  Seems like he might be the one behind UBI at least the version we see today.

                  Edit: Yeah, that article isn't too great. It seems like most of Yang's platform came directly from this guy. Just with less class consciousness. His concept of means tested benefits being replaced with UBI being okay because people can work is ableist as fuck and does not deal with retirement at all.

                  • Awoo [she/her]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Seems like it's the good form of UBI though. Socdem with a solution to fix the existing system without revolution.

                    I can dig it. It's not what I want of course but he's clearly further left than most and understands the class conflict itself. His solution might not be the radical full revolution we need but his analysis is clearly good, I guess he's working within the confines of the British situation where pretty much everyone believes socdem is the furthest left "viable" position in current British politics... I actually agree with that analysis despite the fact I'm pushing for much further left than that.

                    I think there's also one thing we haven't analysed and we should ask the question -- what does UBI do to class consciousness? What happens when you raise up the working class like that? What happens if we merge the poorest segment of the population into the liberal "middle class" that the liberals use as a means of splitting the working class between poor and middle. What happens when the class all becomes one unit? Where do our conversations and tactics go if/when a UBI like this essentially eliminates the poverty that we typically use as our base-line for argument?

                    I don't have an answer. But I think it's a worthwhile discussion. The elimination of the precariat not only entails the elimination of the contradiction that is currently threatening a capitalist crisis but it will also give way to a new contradiction between "the people" and "the ruling rich". They may find it far far harder to split the population under such conditions.

                    So yeah. It's not my goal but I'm not principally against it as a compromise position. Yang is garbage though.

                    • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      His argument seems to be that UBI as he describes it would and should be brought about through the collective action of the precariat as a means to abolish itself. Not even a solution to class conflict or anything, just the only viable method by which to resolve that specific class contradiction and transition into a new phase. He also uses the term "Unconditional" instead of "Universal" which I think makes the concept a lot more sound as a method of eradication the contradiction of the precariat. An unconditional income would create a new class of proletarians that identifies with eachother through the shared experience of living off that basic income. Something that could never be taken away once granted as it would have immediate and profound positive effects on material conditions for nearly every individual who received it.

                      • Awoo [she/her]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        I can support that.

                        I agree with rebranding it "unconditional" to as opposed to "universal". It will be far far harder to co-opt the discussion on the topic and water it down as we have seen for UBI. I have seen 10 versions of UBI ranging from the very good (completely unconditional and covers ALL basic living costs) to the very bad (basically just a new name for welfare, even with means testing in some cases). Watering the phrase down has been a tactic of attacking it.

                        What interests me most about this is how it will affect revolutionary organising. One of the main barriers to revolutionary organising I have seen is that radicals must juggle working for a living and doing organising. A UBI would provide the means for a lot of people to become full-time revolutionaries. Same goes for salting groups.

  • PorkrollPosadist [he/him, they/them]M
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    edit-2
    4 years ago

    The working class is people who sell their labor for a wage. The working class used to have a much more obvious relationship to the means of production, but nowadays (especially in the US) the imperial core has transitioned largely into a service economy, while the means of production have largely been relocated to the imperial periphery where labor can be expoited more easily. None the less, the working class remains people who sell their labor for a living, whether it is in a manufacturing, agricultural, or service context.

    The PMC is the "Professional Managerial Class." Under Marxist theory, the contradiction between the Proletariat (the working class) and the Bourgeoisie (the capitalist class) forms the primary contradiction, but there are obviously many more contradictions which exist within society, and many more subclasses between which these contradictions exist. For instance, there exists a "labor aristocracy." Definitionally, the labor aristocracy are proletarians, but they are proletarians situated in such a way within the global system of capitalist imperialism where they reap many of the benefits of imperial hyper-exploitation of the proletariat of the Global South. This is an example of a secondary contradiction within subclasses of the Proletariat.

    Likewise, there are contradictions within the Bourgeoisie. Most commonly, the Bourgeoise is divided into two prominent subclasses: the Haute Bourgeoisie, and the Petite Bourgeoise (the big and small Bourgeoisie). You could think of the Haute Bourgeoise as the "captains of industry." The Amazons, Facebooks, and Foxconns of the world. The Petit Bourgeoise on the other hand are the small business owners. They still accumulate capital by paying workers less than the value produced by their labor, but they are basically rowboats floating in an uneasy sea dominated by battleships.

    The PMC is a social phenomenon which occurred prominently in the United States along with the phenomenon of suburbanization. At one point we had industrial cities with factories surrounded by proletarian slums. Class divisions were very pronounced geographically. You'd have a factory, then everyone who worked at that factory would live around the factory, and from these communities there would grow proletarian institutions like union halls.

    Then the automobile and white flight happened. A lot of these urban factories shut down and moved to the newly built suburbs. A lot of bourgeois and proletarians settled in the suburbs simultaneously, and the automobile allowed workers to live much farther away from the means of production, much farther away from their coworkers and union comrades. Before you knew it, labor aristocrat proletarians were living across the street from petite bourgeois buisiness owners - while being atomized from their co-workers. This atomization dissolved classic proletarian institutions like centrally located union halls.

    Time, and a lot of cold war propaganda passed. People came to recognize their status based on their income levels, rather than their relations to the means of production. You could have a proletarian X-Ray technician living on one side of the street making 120k/year and a petit bourgeois proprietor of a landscaping company living across the street making 100k/year. Next door you could have a middle-level manager from a Haute Bourgeois regional corporation making 80k/year. These people grew to identify with each other and their suburban lifestyles rather than their class. This is the origin of the PMC. The nexus of the proletarian labor aristocracy, the Petite Bourgeoise, and the humble servants of the Haute Bourgeoisie living in colocation, isolated from their class cohorts, and identifying with a shared lived existence revolving around homeownership, lawns, automobiles, grilling with the neighbors.

    The existence of a "Professional Managerial Class" is a relatively new and somewhat disputed development in Marxist theory. The term was only introduced in the 1970s by John and Barbara Ehrenreich. I have only read summaries of their work, but based on those summaries I find their perspective to be a bit crude. Personally, I don't consider the PMC to be a new, distinct class. Rather (as I described it), I understand it to be temporary phenomenon of class collaboration. The PMC was a product of the post-war boom. The "golden age." But with the declining rate of profit, and the expiration of the United States role as sole industrial producer in the wake of WWII, the conditions which allowed the American industrial proletariat to rise to such commanding heights are gone, and will never return.

    Due to the forces of international competition and financialization, the labor aristocracy which made up the proletarian section of the PMC is becoming irreversibly proletarianized yet again. The teachers, nurses, doctors, technicians, office workers, etc are all trending on a decline. A college degree isn't the golden ticket to middle class that it used to be, and the dependable union pensions on which an honest worker could retire are drying up. The suburban homeowner lifestyle which formed the basis of the PMC has become practically unattainable for Millenials and Zoomers, and before we know it, there won't be a PMC at all.

    • grylarski [they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      That's really good lel, still, my question would be, how do you define them, or does the pithy slogan apply?

      • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Proletarians sell their labor to survive, PMC sell their labor for clout, or are part of the labor aristocracy (people who get paid exceptionally well for their labor, like tech workers). Their connection with labor is purely a passing fancy. Often they take up managerial roles (where the M comes from) and don't do much actual labor themselves.

  • penguin_von_doom [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I tend to think of it like this: if you quit your job tomorrow can you live off other dividends (rent, capital, stock). If no, you're working class cause you need that wage. Btw. Very often when I argue with chuds about this stuff there is always the inevitable "but I own my own business, so I must be capitalist, checkmate commie". Nah, bitch, you're still down here with the rest of us. You're a capitalist when, when you go bankrupt the bank bails you out.

  • Gay_Wrath [fae/faer]
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    edit-2
    4 years ago

    the marxist definition of people in the working class is those who have to sell their labor and do not own the means of producing profit. IE - you are a lyft driver, but you can't make money without signing onto Lyft. You are a retail clerk and cannot make money without a corporation employing you. You are a programmer who cannot make money without being contracted to a business.

    There's an inbetween class who is called the Petite Bourgeoisie, who are not part of the capitalist ownership class. These are people who like, own their own business or practice. They still must work for their money, but they also own the means to do it. A Nanny who contracts but is basically self-employed and has their own tools is in this class as well, as well as artists (or youtubers). Same with small business owners who actually work. The issue with this class is since they can make money off the ruling class and proletarian class alike, they often do NOT align with proletarian interests.

    There is also the added layer that white collar workers are now invested in Capital through the use of stonks as their retirement fund rather than pensions. So while they are technically proletarian workers, they act like they are petite bourgeoisie in nature. Their working class status hasn't changed, but their ideology prevents them from actually joining in any solidarity with proletarian interests. These are the PMC libs.

    • grylarski [they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      edit-2
      4 years ago

      I struggle with the Marxist definition, for eg, if I was just making graphic designs on Fiverr, because I'm using my laptop I'm petite bourgeoisie, but if I a join a marketing company with an office and better tools – I'm a prole? The former situation is definitely likely to materially a lot worse.

      What about sex workers? If I camm out of my bedroom it's bourgeoisie?

      I just think this definition shuts out a lot of people in service oriented industries, and especially like with that Nanny example, like wtf? Many of them are immigrant women.

      • Owl [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        If you're a freelance graphic design consultant, a large portion of your business is finding clients. Fiverr owns that part of your business and takes a cut. So it's not fully petite bourgeoisie.

        I wouldn't base class analysis on trying to fit people into these categories though. It's worth knowing that capital ownership, sole proprietorship, and wage labor have different relations to capital, and that this has a major influence on the way they see themselves and relate to class struggle. You could find someone who does all three at once though. Probably more helpful to label the class relations a person engages in, rather than the person.

        • pooh [she/her]
          ·
          edit-2
          4 years ago

          For me it helps to think of these class labels as roles rather than identities, which runs somewhat counter to common political discourse on class in the US. This could mean some people occupy multiple roles, or it could mean that some occupy a specific class role, while personally identifying with another class.

      • Gay_Wrath [fae/faer]
        ·
        4 years ago

        no - you would be a prole in the case if you're using your laptop too, because you cannot survive without selling your labor on fiverr. If you had your OWN business and were charging your own prices THEN you would be petite bourgeoisie.

      • Gay_Wrath [fae/faer]
        ·
        4 years ago

        Also being boourgeoise isn't inherently bad, we welcome class traitors. You're putting a lot of judgement on what is simply a marxist definition of which class your labor applies.

    • grylarski [they/them]
      hexagon
      ·
      4 years ago

      So you'd include the professional middle class – like bankers, programmers and maybe doctors as working class too? Anyone who works for their bread. Nice, lots of solidarity.

      My question would be this, more often than not, PMC libs ally with small time business owners and the like – how do we show them they belong with the working class? Many of them I guess intend to start their own company.

      • glimmer_twin [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        One can be working class in terms of one’s relation to the means of production, without being proletarian. Petit-bourgeois mindset is rife among the PMC types. I don’t think the PMC are truly a “class” though, individually they’re either members of the petit-boug or non-class conscious workers, with some proletarians scattered in there.