More precisely, I remember reading that the Red Army had issued the death penalty for r*pists in its own ranks and would like an academic/“serious” source to corroborate this and possibly even how rigorously this was enforced. Thanks!
I have an effortpost from the old GenZedong. To nobody's here (i hope at least) surprise, the original source those allegiations is Goebbels.
I’m aware of the role Goebbels played in establishing the talking point of an army of removeds (I can’t exactly access the post right now as my phone recently decided to shield me from accessing reddit) but I’m rather interested in the r*pes that did occur and the prosecution of the perpetrators. I’m also aware of a post war German documentary film that established a number of about two million instances of r*pe in a lot of peoples’ minds by extrapolation from as many as nine confirmed cases.
Since * is a formatting character used for making text italic, if you just want to type the literal character you need to escape it with a backslash like this:
Br\*tish
becomes Br*tishThat's all i had, usually the topic is about refuting the nonexistent SA.
Yeah, and I appreciate that, comrade. Just not quite what I was looking for.
It's not letting me access it because the sub is quarantined, can you post the text?
I would like to begin with a quote by Joseph Stalin.
"Officers and men of the Red Army! We are entering the country of the enemy. The remaining population in the liberated areas, regardless of whether they’re German, Czech, or Polish, should not be subjected to violence. The perpetrators will be punished according to the laws of war. In the liberated territories, sexual relations with females are not allowed. Perpetrators of violence andremoved will be shot.” - J.V. Stalin, Order of the Day, January 19, 1945.
That is a direct quote from Stalin which you can easily find. But of course it is even easier to find western propaganda.
Another quote from the book Browder & Kerensky, 1961.
However, four months later, on July 12th of 1917, the death penalty was restored for all military crimes, murder,removed, and offences against the state committed during war time (Browder & Kerensky, 1961). This measure was adopted by the Provisional government as a result of the deteriorating political and economic situation in Russia due to its unsuccessful participation in WWI and associated civil disturbances
After the war Soviet officers began mass executing thousands of their own soldiers. The reason? Warremoved. Almost all Russian WW2 historians support this. One such example is Oleg Rzheshevky.
According to Oleg Rzheshevsky, a President of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, 4,148 Red Army officers and many soldiers were convicted of atrocities and punished with capital punishment, while only 69 U.S. soldiers were executed.
And
Makhmut Gareev states that he had not even heard about sexual violence. He says that "instances of cruelty, including sexual, occurred", and that they "simply could not be absent after what the Nazis did" in the USSR, but also states that "such cases were strongly suppressed and punished," and that "they did not become widespread." He notes that the Soviet military leadership signed an executive order on 19 January 1945 that demanded the prevention of cruel treatment of the local population.
Now this article is perfect for what you are looking for. (Google translate works better than expected.) And will be the primary source I will be quoting. (Although I will also be posting the name of books I am quoting in brackets.) That is also the source for the Oleg Rzheshevsky comment.
The myth that Stalin and other high ranking officials at the time ordered the massremoved of civilians of any nation is not only entirely wrong but also had 2 primary origins and one secondary. The two primary origins were Anthony Bivor and goebbels. Goebbels began the myth that the red army was so ruthless and ravenous that they wouldremoved any woman aged 10-70.
"In all villages and cities, all German women aged 10 to 70 were subjected to countlessremoveds. the behavior of a Soviet soldier can be seen as an explicit system."
This was where theremoved of millions myth began. His evidence for theremoveds themselves began with him using one unidentifiedremoved as a way to mobilize civilians to rise against the, and I quote, "Russian Mongol savages." Sadly I no longer have a source for that last part. (as the link I used to use no longer works) Also notice the statement of "The behavior of the Soviet soldiers can be seen as an explicit system." Direct propaganda.
Anthony took this a step further.
However, Bivor surpassed Goebbels. Without any documentary evidence or at least non-anonymous testimony, he states: "According to the estimates of the two main Berlin hospitals, the number ofremovedd Soviet soldiers ranges from 95 to 130 thousand people."One doctor concluded that only in Berlin some 100,000 women wereremovedd ... Apparently, much more if you take into account the 1 million 400 thousandremovedd in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. It seems that about two million German women wereremovedd."
With no evidence he claimed two million people wereremovedd. TWO MILLION... He is one of the primary source for all western historians... To give you an idea of their validity. He is basically the big black book of Communism but for the Red army.
Now the secondary source is the book and individual who started the myth that Stalin told his soldiers to startremoved. The book and individual in question are, "Conversations with Stalin" by Milovan Djilas. The book was what first stated that Stalin and other officials ordered theremoved of civilians. (The book itself being as factual as the black book)
Now to give you an idea of how trustworthy Milovan is, he hated and slandered Stalin any chance he got. He felt that khrushchev was a far smarter, cunning, intelligent, and capable leader. And also has a book praising Gorbachev to the point of claiming he was not only a great leader, but he did the right thing.
With all that in mind we can come to a few conclusions.
Stalin and the high ranking officials were not only against ANY form of harm against the civilians, but also ordered the execution of any soldiers who would commit such acts. I mean consider how big Stalin and the Soviet government were on women's rights? Do you honestly think they would allow or order theremoved of women and children? No.
The numbers were not in the millions, or even hundred thousands, but we're definitely in the tens of thousands. Most likely less than a hundred thousand.
Almost all of the sources that western historians based their findings on cannot be trusted. And have histories of attempting to slander the red army and Soviet Union. Attempting to make them look like savages. I mean, just look at all the propaganda against the Red army. They supposedly massremovedd everything that moved, fought without weapons, shot deserters, only fought because they would be shot, constantly committed war crimes and atrocities, were undisciplined, only won because of lend lease, (even though they only used about 10% of it) and won by just throwing soldiers at the enemy until they overwhelmed them.... Right all sounds believable. So no none of it is trustworthy. Also note how the Red army was supposedly ravenous savages while amerkian soldiers woo German woman with just chocolate. This is no accident, the wooing with chocolate was frequently less than consensual. (There is a large amount of evidence of massremoved by U$ soldiers)
Theremoveds got what they deserved and were shot by the thousands.
Now do not mistake what I am saying as justification or defence of theremoveds in the Red army. Or denial that anyremoveds even happened. No they were monsters and deserved to be shot and theremoveds definitely did happen. But it was only a few thousand soldiers committing these acts and the majority were shot. And every last one of them deserved a bullet, to be hung, some probably even torture. And the majority got it. So please do not mistake this as apologia. (I had someone accuse me of it once hence this whole paragraph.)
Now as a little bonus I will give you a prime example of the trustworthiness and hypocrisy of western historians.
The massremoved of Japanese civilians by amerikan soldiers. This will be the article I am referencing. The article itself is well sourced. Although it also spews propaganda about the Soviet union (taking a centrist, everyone is equally terrible and the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis perspective) it is still a great article.
Now shortly after the occupation of Japan massremoved by U$ soldiers was so rampant that after 10 days they stopped keeping count. (and began to cover it up, which can be read in the article I linked) In fact,
There were also 1,336 reportedremoveds during the first 10 days of the occupation of Kanagawa prefecture after the Japanese surrender.
Just one prefecture in 10 days. Yet the western historian numbers for the entire country (when they are actually willing to admitremoved happened) is never higher than ten thousand. Although they frequently deny that anyremoveds happened. (Unlike the Soviet and Russian historians that admit that some of their soldiers did commit these acts.) Even though it is well documented with actual credible resources. On top of that the U$ actually did sanction theremoved of civilians (also in the article I linked) in both allowing theremoved of them, and working with the emperor to have forced comfort women ready for the U$ soldiers. Also only 3 individuals were ever tried forremoved, all 3 were black. (As opposed to the 4000-5000 Soviet soldiers who were tried and executed.) They also silenced any Japanese civilians who attempted to oppose their crimes and made it illegal to write newspapers or comment against their occupation or the bombs until 1952.
There is more but this is already a wall of text so I will stop for now. But you should also look into theremoved of Germany by U$ soldiers. The amerikans worked hard to try and cover up their crimes and worked with the former Nazis to make the Red army out to be savages while their own soldiers were heroes. Their soldiers also massremovedd likely far more.
I hope this helped comrade and was what you were looking for. Also sorry for the wall of text. And I am not sure about the NKVD committing atrocities (that sounds like western propaganda.) But then again, I do not know as much about the subject. Still though, I would be suspicious of such claims.
Well that was super depressing to write about so I am probably going to lie down for awhile.
I will finish this with one final significant quote.
This war was started against us not by the German people, not by German workers, peasants, and intelligentsia, who's suffering we all understand, but by the gang of bloodthirsty fascist rulers of Germany, who have enslaved French, Czechs, Poles, Serbs, Norwegians, Belgians, Danes, Dutch, Greeks, and other peoples. V. M. Molotov, 1941
This comment was originally made by u/MrSkullgrinder
Found a different copy with links. It's not censored since it predates the filter change, but I'll also post a censored version below for convenience (the reason I just put 'P' for the spoiler text is that the original post is 9984 characters, meaning I only have 16 characters I can add)
edit: lmao I made the same formatting mistake I was just explaining elsewhere. Will have to strip off the beginning fluff to fit the backslashes, gimme a sec...done. All I removed was
This is from the communism mega thread :
from the top
edit again: if anyone's wondering how I fixed the URL containing a filtered word, I just percent-encoded
a
as%61
. Normally percent encoding is done for special characters like brackets, parentheses, and slashes, but you can percent encode any character. Honestly never tried it for alphanumerics before, but it worked! You can just look up the letter in an ASCII table and replace the letter with %[hex value].Post
"Officers and men of the Red Army! We are entering the country of the enemy. The remaining population in the liberated areas, regardless of whether they’re German, Czech, or Polish, should not be subjected to violence. The perpetrators will be punished according to the laws of war. In the liberated territories, sexual relations with females are not allowed. Perpetrators of violence and r*pe will be shot.” - J.V. Stalin, Order of the Day, January 19, 1945.
That is a direct quote from Stalin which you can easily find. But of course it is even easier to find western propaganda.
Another quote from the book Browder & Kerensky, 1961.
However, four months later, on July 12th of 1917, the death penalty was restored for all military crimes, murder, r*pe, and offences against the state committed during war time (Browder & Kerensky, 1961). This measure was adopted by the Provisional government as a result of the deteriorating political and economic situation in Russia due to its unsuccessful participation in WWI and associated civil disturbances
After the war Soviet officers began mass executing thousands of their own soldiers. The reason? War r*pe. Almost all Russian WW2 historians support this. One such example is Oleg Rzheshevky.
According to Oleg Rzheshevsky, a President of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, 4,148 Red Army officers and many soldiers were convicted of atrocities and punished with capital punishment, while only 69 U.S. soldiers were executed.
And
Makhmut Gareev states that he had not even heard about sexual violence. He says that "instances of cruelty, including sexual, occurred", and that they "simply could not be absent after what the Nazis did" in the USSR, but also states that "such cases were strongly suppressed and punished," and that "they did not become widespread." He notes that the Soviet military leadership signed an executive order on 19 January 1945 that demanded the prevention of cruel treatment of the local population.
Now this article is perfect for what you are looking for. (Google translate works better than expected.) And will be the primary source I will be quoting. (Although I will also be posting the name of books I am quoting in brackets.) That is also the source for the Oleg Rzheshevsky comment.
The myth that Stalin and other high ranking officials at the time ordered the mass r*pe of civilians of any nation is not only entirely wrong but also had 2 primary origins and one secondary. The two primary origins were Anthony Bivor and goebbels. Goebbels began the myth that the red army was so ruthless and ravenous that they would r*pe any woman aged 10-70.
"In all villages and cities, all German women aged 10 to 70 were subjected to countless r*pes. the behavior of a Soviet soldier can be seen as an explicit system."
This was where the r*pe of millions myth began. His evidence for the r*pes themselves began with him using one unidentified r*pe as a way to mobilize civilians to rise against the, and I quote, "Russian Mongol savages." Sadly I no longer have a source for that last part. (as the link I used to use no longer works) Also notice the statement of "The behavior of the Soviet soldiers can be seen as an explicit system." Direct propaganda.
Anthony took this a step further.
However, Bivor surpassed Goebbels. Without any documentary evidence or at least non-anonymous testimony, he states: "According to the estimates of the two main Berlin hospitals, the number of r*ped Soviet soldiers ranges from 95 to 130 thousand people."One doctor concluded that only in Berlin some 100,000 women were r*ped ... Apparently, much more if you take into account the 1 million 400 thousand r*ped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. It seems that about two million German women were r*ped."
With no evidence he claimed two million people were r*ped. TWO MILLION... He is one of the primary source for all western historians... To give you an idea of their validity. He is basically the big black book of Communism but for the Red army.
Now the secondary source is the book and individual who started the myth that Stalin told his soldiers to start r*ping. The book and individual in question are, "Conversations with Stalin" by Milovan Djilas. The book was what first stated that Stalin and other officials ordered the r*pe of civilians. (The book itself being as factual as the black book)
Now to give you an idea of how trustworthy Milovan is, he hated and slandered Stalin any chance he got. He felt that khrushchev was a far smarter, cunning, intelligent, and capable leader. And also has a book praising Gorbachev to the point of claiming he was not only a great leader, but he did the right thing.
With all that in mind we can come to a few conclusions.
- Stalin and the high ranking officials were not only against ANY form of harm against the civilians, but also ordered the execution of any soldiers who would commit such acts. I mean consider how big Stalin and the Soviet government were on women's rights? Do you honestly think they would allow or order the r*pe of women and children? No.
- The numbers were not in the millions, or even hundred thousands, but we're definitely in the tens of thousands. Most likely less than a hundred thousand.
- Almost all of the sources that western historians based their findings on cannot be trusted. And have histories of attempting to slander the red army and Soviet Union. Attempting to make them look like savages. I mean, just look at all the propaganda against the Red army. They supposedly mass r*ped everything that moved, fought without weapons, shot deserters, only fought because they would be shot, constantly committed war crimes and atrocities, were undisciplined, only won because of lend lease, (even though they only used about 10% of it) and won by just throwing soldiers at the enemy until they overwhelmed them.... Right all sounds believable. So no none of it is trustworthy. Also note how the Red army was supposedly ravenous savages while amerkian soldiers woo German woman with just chocolate. This is no accident, the wooing with chocolate was frequently less than consensual. (There is a large amount of evidence of mass r*pe by U$ soldiers)
- The r*pists got what they deserved and were shot by the thousands.
Now do not mistake what I am saying as justification or defence of the r*pists in the Red army. Or denial that any r*pes even happened. No they were monsters and deserved to be shot and the r*pes definitely did happen. But it was only a few thousand soldiers committing these acts and the majority were shot. And every last one of them deserved a bullet, to be hung, some probably even torture. And the majority got it. So please do not mistake this as apologia. (I had someone accuse me of it once hence this whole paragraph.)
Now as a little bonus I will give you a prime example of the trustworthiness and hypocrisy of western historians.
The mass r*pe of Japanese civilians by amerikan soldiers. This will be the article I am referencing. The article itself is well sourced. Although it also spews propaganda about the Soviet union (taking a centrist, everyone is equally terrible and the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis perspective) it is still a great article.
Now shortly after the occupation of Japan mass r*pe by U$ soldiers was so rampant that after 10 days they stopped keeping count. (and began to cover it up, which can be read in the article I linked) In fact,
There were also 1,336 reported r*pes during the first 10 days of the occupation of Kanagawa prefecture after the Japanese surrender.
Just one prefecture in 10 days. Yet the western historian numbers for the entire country (when they are actually willing to admit r*pe happened) is never higher than ten thousand. Although they frequently deny that any r*pes happened. (Unlike the Soviet and Russian historians that admit that some of their soldiers did commit these acts.) Even though it is well documented with actual credible resources. On top of that the U$ actually did sanction the r*pe of civilians (also in the article I linked) in both allowing the r*pe of them, and working with the emperor to have forced comfort women ready for the U$ soldiers. Also only 3 individuals were ever tried for r*pe, all 3 were black. (As opposed to the 4000-5000 Soviet soldiers who were tried and executed.) They also silenced any Japanese civilians who attempted to oppose their crimes and made it illegal to write newspapers or comment against their occupation or the bombs until 1952.
There is more but this is already a wall of text so I will stop for now. But you should also look into the r*pe of Germany by U$ soldiers. The amerikans worked hard to try and cover up their crimes and worked with the former Nazis to make the Red army out to be savages while their own soldiers were heroes. Their soldiers also mass r*ped likely far more.
I hope this helped comrade and was what you were looking for. Also sorry for the wall of text. And I am not sure about the NKVD committing atrocities (that sounds like western propaganda.) But then again, I do not know as much about the subject. Still though, I would be suspicious of such claims.
Well that was super depressing to write about so I am probably going to lie down for awhile.
I will finish this with one final significant quote.
This war was started against us not by the German people, not by German workers, peasants, and intelligentsia, who's suffering we all understand, but by the gang of bloodthirsty fascist rulers of Germany, who have enslaved French, Czechs, Poles, Serbs, Norwegians, Belgians, Danes, Dutch, Greeks, and other peoples. V. M. Molotov, 1941
credit to u/A_Serene_Ocean on reddit
Yes, I think so
trud article (first one) = https://www.trud.ru/article/21-07-2005/90824_nasilie_nad_faktami/print/
mass SA in Japan = https://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2012/10removed-abuse-japanese-women-american-soldiers.html?m=1
"u/MrSkullgrinder" note = https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/7eeiql/sources_on_war_crimes_and_atrocities_committed_by/
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
Only one at the end to the original post, which also didn't had any.
FYI the word r*pe (without the censor) and variations is filtered in Hexbear's slur filter
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
I, too, have heard of it, voici les sources
Here what I found on this topic. Youtube didn’t allow me to post it with links so just copy paste what I’ll leave below in the search bar.
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“ Даже Героев Советского Союза судили за насилие в Германии (военно-судебный архив)” translates to “ Even the Heroes of the Soviet Union were tried for violence in Germany (military-judicial archive)” https://dzen.ru/a/XhhtiivrSQCxHxV8
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“ Приговоры ВТ РККА за изнасилования в 1945 (по материалам ОБД Мемориал)” translates to “ Verdicts of the VT Red Army forremoved in 1945 (according to the materials of the OBD Memorial)” VT here is for Voennyi Tribunal(Military Tribunal) https://warhistory.livejournal.com/2310977.html
Both sources are in Russian and should be the first result in google search. But you’d have to use a google translate probably. If you have troubles understanding something like word abbreviation or graphs feel free to ask me.
-
I'm not super well studied on the topic so take this for what it is. I'm sure there was a shit ton of sexual assault going in occupied Germany, it was a chaotic occupation at the tail end of one of the worst wars in history, even if the Red Army was trying to punish offenders they probably had limited ability to actually enforce it.
But the focus on it, while ignoring the massive amount of sexual violence the German forces committed on the Eastern Front, is telling.
while ignoring the massive amount of sexual violence the German forces committed on the Eastern Front, is telling.
I'm still absolutely amazed that the Red Army going west and in the process seeing all what nazis did on those territories did not left literally just earth and sky in Germany. Truly, as Hemingway said: "Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid."
Thats makes me remember the time I stated that the soviets werent going to kill goebbles kids and so they didnt need to die, because the soviets were upset and couldnt understand why a parent would kill his own child, only for it to be called "fanfiction" and that the soviets who "used r*pe as a systematic weapon" would never be upset at dead kids.