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  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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    4 years ago

    no one's invented the "communism" button yet, and Marx himself just critiqued capitalism... if only to reveal contradictions that must be addressed and utilized in a less exploitative & socially deleterious manner

    "productive forces" have to be utilized and improved and turned toward social ends. firms have to be organized & workers have to be engaged in production

    if you don't think the "mass line" & nationalization of large industries just this year are tantamount to an actual full-on display of the power of "labor theory of value", you're losing the thread imo

    https://www.ft.com/content/22108ddd-3280-4013-bcd8-1adc9e6ae13d PRC just reported 4.9% growth yesterday, their consumer spending is returning. And yet, we will only see losses in any other major capitalist country. India shrank something like 30% in the 2nd quarter, that's devastating.

    China still leads the world in manufacturing output, the raw numbers of comparative global economic activity & dynamism make this clear

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        i'm just not going to try to blame the CPC for the West's failure to socially address economic issues

        Did PRC socially address this year's economic downturn or nah?

        • anthm17 [he/him]
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          4 years ago

          So that's a yes.

          Screw off capitalist.

          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            anti-capitalism is easy, but how would you suggest one build a civilization without first examining and utilizing the tools we have?

            western liberal democracy created catastrophic horrifying nuclear weapons technology using state capitalism, does that mean USSR and communists should've planted flowers in missile silos?

            material circumstances require tempered material responses, not wishful thinking & ... what else are you suggesting again?

            i didn't say that Deng Xiaoping was right, I said that CPC is doing the thing right now to weather this year's material circumstances using anti-capitalist measures

            but again

            state capitalism and this discussion we're having right now is literally the primary stage of socialism

            • anthm17 [he/him]
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              4 years ago

              state capitalism and this discussion we’re having right now is literally the primary stage of socialism

              If you're a lying piece of shit who wants to betray a revolution it also works really well. I don't know which Deng Xiaoping was, most likely the former, but his shortcut means China is capitalist now.

                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  Which stage is this?

                  https://www.nst.com.my/world/world/2020/10/633787/chinas-super-rich-got-15-trillion-richer-during-pandemic

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    This is the Kuala Lumpur paper? Lol, I wonder if they have an ideological bias or have ever been involved in political bias scandals

                    At any rate, here's what that article says about PRC "the country is on track to become the only major economy to expand this year, according to the International Monetary Fund.... The urban jobless rate inched down to 5.4 percent in September"

                    I wonder what the US' jobless rate is atm.

                    Basically all I am seeing is that the communists are better at developing past the conventions of capitalism, especially considering how no other capitalist economy is doing so hot...

                    or maybe the Chinese billionaires were just creating racism in America, and that's where all that money went

                    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/economist-found-2416-trillion-when-she-tallied-cost-of-racial-bias/ar-BB1acPA7

                    • anthm17 [he/him]
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                      4 years ago

                      Maybe black people they just need reeducation and forced relocation to where better jobs are.

                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                        4 years ago

                        are you saying that something like a PRC-style developmental outreach initiative would definitely work within areas of the US where poverty and systemic legally codified racism & capitalism have left centuries of scars? that's actually not that bad of an idea, though I disagree with your cynical & lib characterization. really reaching

                        • FailsonSimulator2020 [any]
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                          4 years ago

                          It’s more like using the government to scoop up specifically Q Anon/ facsist brainwormed people and giving them education and bringing them out of impoverished rural towns to places with better wages and working more productively with the same effort because of developed labor skills. We would definitely hate that and call it “cultural genocide” 🙄

                          • ComradeMikey [he/him]
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                            4 years ago

                            white people have no culture lmao take all the white supramcists improve their lives and educate them sounds great

                          • anthm17 [he/him]
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                            4 years ago

                            Except in this case the "q-anon" people happen to compose an ethnic minority.

                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                            4 years ago

                            where you compare PRC's actual outreach and socioeconomic development to USA who has literally waged racist and genocidal campaigns against both Black & Indigenous

                            not to mention the ACTUAL comparison to be made which is America's Global War on Terror... lol

                            you have nothing

                            • anthm17 [he/him]
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                              4 years ago

                              who has literally waged racist and genocidal campaigns against both Black & Indigenous

                              Canada did too.

                              Infamously via forced education.

                              you have nothing

                              All you have is weird whataboutism where you pretend that I support any of those things.

                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                4 years ago

                                every advanced country on Earth has some form of mandatory schooling lol... what are you talking about?

                                adult education & deradicalization is only bad if the PRC does it? but the fact that the One Child Policy only applies to Han families in Xinjiang means that cultural genocide is occurring? what are you talking about?

                                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                  4 years ago

                                  deradicalization

                                  What percentage of Uyghurs does the Chinese government consider radicalized?

                                  • SheetsOfLenin [he/him]
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                                    4 years ago

                                    Regular massive terror attacks in one's country tend to be a sign action is necessary. I'm sure the Chinese imams who support such programs are just puppets, and education is just a ploy by the devious Asiatics of course

                                    • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                      4 years ago

                                      Does this trust of the state extend to things like the Patriot act?

                                      • SheetsOfLenin [he/him]
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                                        4 years ago

                                        Are you a fucking anarchist lmao? The fact that you'd ask for me to spell out the difference is childish and almost certainly in bad faith.

                                        'State do thing? Oh really? Have you heard of other state that do other thing'

                                        You're wasting everyone's time

                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                          4 years ago

                                          I don't trust broad counter-terror programs, sorry.

                                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                  4 years ago

                                  every advanced country on Earth has some form of mandatory schooling lol… what are you talking about?

                                  I'm talking about how attempting to forcibly erase a culture is a crime against humanity.

                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                    4 years ago

                                    any actual proof such things have occurred, or just rabid anti-communist speculation & sensationalism?

                                    • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                      4 years ago

                                      You wouldn't accept proof because you're a zealot.

                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                          4 years ago

                                          Adrian Zenz

                                          He's not a zealot he's a crank :p

                                          Massive gulf between believe the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation and being completely uncritical of China's actions.

                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                            4 years ago

                                            No, Adrian Zenz is literally a zealot

                                            he said that Jews have to accept Christ to be allowed into heaven. Zenz also said that he was sent to Earth by God to destroy Communism. Is that what you want too?

                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                4 years ago

                                                wait, did requiring engravings of knives purchased in these areas start before or after the fundamentalist sectarianism?

                                                Hui Muslims also do not completely escape this terrifying inculcation. Which isn’t to say it’s some inherent feature of Islam, obviously not if these groups have co-existed for so long, but we can’t ignore the extent to which a recent narrative of “cultural genocide” gets slathered on these stories.

                                                Hui Muslims are socio-linguistically & historically of Chinese descent. And they are also known to have Salafist & extreme sectarian groups moving in and out of these areas in Xinjiang. Hui muslims have been implicated in Heroin rings & moving those drugs to those Uyghur areas.

                                                To what extent is Daesh and its outgrowths an encouragement for these groups elsewhere & why was the reporter A. Vltchek found dead under suspicious circumstances in Turkey?

                                                Is this global nexus of oil money & militant funding & state surveillance not just a way to encircle China from Central Asia?

                                                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                  Hui Muslims are socio-linguistically & historically of Chinese descent. And they are also known to have Salafist & extreme sectarian groups moving in and out of these areas in Xinjiang. Hui muslims have been implicated in Heroin rings & moving those drugs to those Uyghur areas.

                                                  Well damn, better do some collective punishment then.

                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                    4 years ago

                                                    No, that's the thing, Hui muslims are also involved in criminal actions and stoking seditionist sentiment

                                                    You want Daesh in PRC? pretty weird ngl

                                                    • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                      4 years ago

                                                      You want Daesh in PRC? pretty weird ngl

                                                      Yes, and I want it here too obviously. That's why I'm not demanding Ilhan Omar be sent to a camp.

                                                      I just love terrorism.

                                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                        4 years ago

                                                        education & economic development are not law enforcement issues in the same way as the United States’ War on Drugs & racist for-profit prison industry.

                                                        you can parse the lasting social benefits & fundamental uplifting aim of one over the other, i am sure of this.

                                                        https://www.sbs.com.au/news/china-releases-video-of-uighur-musician-disputing-reported-death

                                                        the way news & sensationalism & outright lies blend so perfectly into jingoism can’t be ignored. none of us are immune to propaganda, but I think we can comb through most of these claims about PRC and find very little real or irrefutable evidence.

                                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                          4 years ago

                                                          education & economic development are not law enforcement issues in the same way as the United States’ War on Drugs & racist for-profit prison industry.

                                                          Except you just implied it's part of counter-terror efforts.

                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                            4 years ago

                                                            yes, people who have access to gainful employment and are able to socially advance within society are far less likely to become violent seditionists, wouldn't you agree?

                                                            poverty is endemic to these regions, but the knife attacks coincide with the rise of CIA backed fundamentalist Salafism.

                                                            • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                              yes, people who have access to gainful employment and are able to socially advance within society are far less likely to become violent seditionists

                                                              Sure.

                                                              Now do it while respecting human rights.

                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                yes, giving people gainful employment and education and opportunities for advancement is literally guaranteeing autonomy & self-reliance & engendering human rights

                                                                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                                  4 years ago

                                                                  Giving?

                                                                  So these are all volunteers?

                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                    4 years ago

                                                                    Yes

                                                                    "According to the official Chinese version, during the past three years voluntary education has been imparted to the Muslim population of Xinjiang so that their extremist tendencies may be rectified."

                                                                    • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                                      4 years ago

                                                                      According to the official Chinese version

                                                                      According to the state the state didn't do bad things.

                                                                      You can always trust the state.

                                                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                        4 years ago

                                                                        Well, you posted New Strait Times... so you must trust them, right?

                                                                        https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2019/08/512399/uyghurs-freely-join-re-education-camps

                                                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                                          4 years ago

                                                                          hmm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp

                                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                            4 years ago

                                                                            weird, that article you sent says

                                                                            “The purpose [of the camp network] was to try to indoctrinate and change an entire population by channeling them through this dedicated system,” said Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher into the Xinjiang internment camps, who is senior fellow in China studies at the victims of communism foundation"

                                                                            So you take that Guardian's interpretation of Zenz' lies as fact huh?

                                                                            • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                                              4 years ago

                                                                              No, but it's hard to find a publication that put out the leaks without referencing that anti-communist wacko.

                                                                              Doesn't change the contents of the leaks.

                                                                              • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                                4 years ago

                                                                                yes, if these speculations contain positive references to Zenz in any way, then they are suspect

                                                                                • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                                                  4 years ago

                                                                                  The news is the leaks not the biased presentation.

                                                                                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                                                    4 years ago

                                                                                    Have you seen the provenance of these supposed "leaks"? Because, without actual verification of that information, it's just badly written Chinese script on paper.

                                                                                    Have you seen actual footage inside the schools?

                                                                                    Have you seen any physical evidence to suggest that people are being abused or culturally genocided or killed by PRC?

                                                                                    Because I don't think you've seen anything of that nature, you just take Adrian Zenz' sensationalism & anti-communism as unquestionable

                                                      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                        4 years ago

                                                        and yes, US has racist extrajudicial Muslim torture camps LOL... I wonder wtf you're actually standing up for here?

                                                        • anthm17 [he/him]
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                                                          4 years ago

                                                          Obviously we just need more of that.

                                                          I wonder wtf you’re actually standing up for here?

                                                          Does it help to point that I'm

                                                          1. not a nationalist
                                                          2. not even an American, I just live here.

                                                          In other words I'm not standing up for anything except people I think deserve it.

                                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                                            4 years ago

                                                            sounds like you just need cope because USA is melting down and PRC is actually holding together and improving the lot of their people using ideologies & economic models that defy Western imperialism

                                                            you can try and harp on unsupported & biased Western propaganda on PRC. I will wait for actual evidence

                                          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                                            https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1160094.shtml this is from last year & seems to indicate things are improving from the perspective of government openness & goodwill

                                            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47191952 this is also from last year and maybe passes the sniff-test for you here for “East vs. West media bias” maybe not idgaf

                                            https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/china-muslims-work-change-perceptions-after-knife-attacks this is VOA, so it’s definitely tripe, but even it still was giving somewhat of an even-handed & in-depth perspective on the issues at play here in the Obama era

                                            https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/chinese-salafism-and-the-saudi-connection/ this too gives nuance and offers wider connections to the general state of Islam globally. But it leaves out key connections between the “openness” reforms of Deng’s era & how these have always led to potentially dangerous Western & even extreme theocratic influences into the country