Um, the governor is essentially a figurehead position that is subordinate to the Party secretary. That is true in every autonomous region. A Tibetan has never been Party secretary. Indeed in comprehensive studies of the local Party personnel, historians have
argued that basically most major Party positions have always been Han despite Tibetans making up a decent percentage of lower level cadres.
The point is not that Tibet's conditions pre revolution were terrible. But I might note that you all are basically saying that an area the size of Western Europe was entirely a hellhole. That shit is deeply ignorant. There were areas of Tibet with slavery, and likewise there were areas full of relatively progressive reformers. What the CCP initially wanted to do was prop up local reformers and you'll note to that end they worked very heavily with the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama. What changed was that progressive reformers grew disenchanted with how little say they actually had following 1956 when policies took a harsher tone, thus the rebellion and the Dalai Lama fleeing, CIA involvement etc.
The point is this - the CCP admits itself that it took Xinjiang and Tibet to secure the rest of China. The risk of balkanization was too great. Hell I am inclined to agree with that. But the charge that they were there just to spread revolution and to enlighten the local populace is pretty much the same argument that the British made with India. It is dumb. I am sorry, if you believe in a straight up violation of all local autonomy and sovereignty for a vision of unilinear progress WITHOUT also accepting that there was a lot of cynicism involved, then you are blatantly misreading history.
Parenti is good but he is not a historian - there is a shit ton of work by both Western and Chinese historians on Tibet before and after the Revolution and the picture is significantly more complicated than you guys paint it to be.
Calling someone with a Ph.D in political science "not a historian" when referring to the political situation of Tibet/China is... interesting.
The rest of your argument may indeed be persuasive to someone who actually cares about maintaining the dreadful political situation inside of Tibet but that's not me. I dont care that in some rural village there wasnt slavery or whatever. I dont care that the weirdo psycho Lamas lost their power. Fuck all versions of aristocracy, but especially fuck ones that still allowed slavery in the 1950s. A world in which the Chinese dont liberate Tibet is a much worse world.
Does he a PhD in political science in China? I've a PhD in Chinese History. Should I be writing a book about the French Revolution as an expert? Again, Parenti's work isn't bad but it relies on the work other historians did. I say 'did', because the scholarship has evolved a lot since then.
So you basically reveal that you are pretty much a chauvinist - that a backward people should be made to be destroyed and progress regardless of the costs. You would've fit well amongst the progressives of the British Empire, begging to destroy the cruelties of the caste system in India.
Yes, and again...all of Tibet didn't have slavery, and Tibetans themselves were fighting against it before the CCP entered the picture. The logic you are using, and I am sorry if it is rude, is pretty much the same logic of British reformers seeking to civilize the barbarian 'Hindoos'. I don't really see how one can deny that. Would you advocate that the US goes into Mauritania to liberate the pockets of slavery that exist there as well?
If you would be open to it an AMA regarding your thoughts and knowledge on Chinese history, especially post communist revolution, would be super interesting.
I took one history course during my B.A Chinese poetry studies but it was long ago.
I would be open to it, but tbh I sometimes find talking about it here a little exhausting. It is not that I think people have bad intentions, but there is often just a lot of bad faith interpretations of China from both demsoc AND tankie positions that navigating all the fraught politics of all and arguing with everyone becomes really tiring. But I'll think about it!
I would love to read a historians account and the pre and post China intervention analysis if you have a link.
From the parenti article it seems as if the early efforts were focused on infrastructure development whilst attempting to respect the Tibetean people & culture and what shifted it into a more violent liberation was: "The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama's second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet"
I realize this is all from a single referenced source but am open to other sources and point of view on this matter. As it stands now I am of the opinion that the liberation of Tibet was a net positive.
Sure. So in regards to te CIA unprising - it should be noted that the CIA approached the Dalai Lama in 1950, offering to give him supplies to fight the PLA. He refused, for one because he saw what was happening in Korea and didn't believe that Tibet would win any outright war, but also because he genuinely believed the CCP would be a force for good. The CIA then took to other elements, mostly the regressive elites as well as certain dissents in Kham, trained a few and then airlifted them to try and mount a guerrilla war. That was only in Kham and Amdo, however. The real issue that changed things, and caused the Dalai Lama to flee etc was 1959, when those sporadic rebellions spread to Lhasa as well. Fascinatingly enough, historian Chen Jian notes (I can get you a PDF if you want) that the PLA was actually pretty eager to put these down - mostly as a show of force, but also it would be good martial practice. Take that for what you will.
However, to argue that the CCP had been only respectful up until this point is not entirely fair, I think. VIncent Goossaert and David A. Palmer discuss this in regards to religious institutions, from 1956 onwards (noting again that widespread rebellion had not yet really started outside a few rural areas in Kham), the CCP basically to disregard the 17 point agreement through a bit of a loop hole by arguing that Tibetans in Kham and Amdo, some of which were in Sichuan and not formally 'Tibet', would be subjected to land collectivization, including confiscation from monasteries, temples, and traditional land grants. Many landlords and tyrants very thankfully lost their holdings, but a very sizable percentage of the male population were invested in the monastery system. This caused a lot of resentment. Again, even if you can agree that ultimately religious institutions had to be liquidated, this was seen as a breach of trust as from the 1930s onwards when the CCP relied on minorities to keep them safe from the GMD during the Long March, the CCP had promised that the revolutionary measures it would pursue in the mainland and for Han people would not be applied entirely to minority people out of respect for autonomy. That ceased to be the case.
In Tibet itself, as historian Tsering Shakya notes that there was a lot of resentment in places like Lhasa because of the impression that China was 'taking' over the country. Shakya even argues that actually the CCP did a lot of good. Pre-revolution Tibet wasn't all sunshine and roses, and even the Dalai Lama again pretty much agrees that a lot of the early reforms against feudalism etc was necessarsy. But things were a little shakier than the Chinese narrative of thigns also. You had a desire amongst Tibetans to have their own standing army, to be able to conduct its own foreign policy, and also to cap the limit of Chinese settlers and cadres allowed to stay in the territory. A lot of progressive forces wanted the CCP to actually take a harsher stance and to empower them to do the reforms that woudl be necessary. But, Mao was also very cautious about how to go about changing structures in Tibet and other minority areas at this point - he didn't want to rock the boat, somewhat sensibly. To try and get rid of anti-Chinese sentiments in Lhasa and the Tibetan government, though, the Chinese authorities did want to force the coutnry's dual Prime Ministers to be dismissed, and so they were. That sort of unilateral action unfortunately also pissed off the people who were hoping that the CCP would empower progressive elements - there was a simmering feeling that ultimately Chinese cadres were on one hand unwilling to take action but also that when they did so they did without the input of Tibetan officials or activists.
What changed the picture was that when China signed a trade agreement with India in 1953, the Tibetan elites were suddenly a lot more in favor of the Chinese government. Dalai Lama himself was wowed by Zhou Enlai's diplomacy. infrastructure development and roads etc vastly improved. People were given good jobs, Tibet's international standing grew etc. The ruling elite were very happy; ordinary people were somewhat more mixed, due to again growing resentment at the fact that they had very little input before the revolution and continued to have very little after. In 1955, they moved to create the Preparatory Committee for the establishment of the Autonomous Region of Tibet (PCART). This was seen as somewhat of a compromise - Mao had wanted to actually place the region under Beijing's direct administration, buit thought the PCART would be a good way to start transitioning Tibet to a socialistic system of governance. Here is where things get a loittle tricky - the PCART would divde Tibet into three separate groups, and one of these (Chamdo) would begin moving to socialism quicker, under the supervision of the PLA. The Dalai Lama accepted this, but there was a lot of frustration here - PCART was designed essentaily to keep two separate Tibetan actors against each other (the Tibetan Government and the Panchen Lama) and to have another section (Chamdo) effectively operate under Chinese control with nominal Tibetan input. China thought this would all be a great success, but this basically just created a lot of disunity in Tibeta and a lot of anxiety about what China really wanted. Trust broke down, and then the uprising in Kham and Amdo start (again noting those regions were legally under Chinese jurisdiction, not 'Tibet'). Lhasa denounced them entirely, did not want to support the Khampas whatsoever, but all the fighting also craeted a refugee crisis. The root of the fighting, again, was the belief of Tibetans in those areas that Buddhism itself was under attack, and that now a large body of men (monks, many of whom lived quite poorly, particularly the lower level ones) suddenly had no income. This created anxiety in Tibet that the same situation was inevitable there as well.
For what it is worth, Mao himself was not partiularly worried by these anxieties or even the initial rebellions, believing that basically it was a consequence of economic hardship and that Tibetans would cease to resent the Chinese presence eventually. Also aggravating the situation was that PCART was bringing in many more Han cadres, who were alleged of being significantly more callous towards local customs and religion. Chinese officials had to backpedal on some of their initial reforms, tried to placate people, and also outlined that Han Chauvinism was causing resentment throughout Tibet and other autonomous regions. In 1957, after the hundred Flowers speech, Tibetans started voicing a lot more of these anxieties out in the open, and in the context of growing discontent in Kham, Chinese officials were growign a lot more cautious. The whole situation was deteriorating, and local Chinese offiicials in Tibet proper were growing a lot more dismissive of Tibetan complains, basically saying that they believed Tibet belonged in the 'bosom of the motherland'. And so, Han Chauvinism stopped being the enemy - local nationalism became the greater problem. The Khampa rebellion grew larger, affecting eastern Tibet too, and then with the CIA getting involved, the whole situation basically got set on fire.
The lessons here are sort of mixed. Tibetan elites, including many feudal ones, liked the CCP's early policies because essentially it helped them grow their own capital and 'develop' the region. But a lot of regular peasants were more resentful of what they saw as a sort of cultural elitism amongst the TIbetan elites (including the Dalai Lama) as well as the Chinese cadres. Chinese cadres often barely spoke the language, were not particularly sensitive to local needs, and the shifts in Sichuan in Kham and Amdo made people even more afraid. Couple this with PCART's disastrous policies and shifting elite sentiments, and stuff went out of control. Again, imo, the solution to this would have just been to set up a Tibetan Communist Party, supply them with funds and training, and have let Tibet develop its own unique course to revolution. It really is ultimately a sad thing that shit went the way it did. To say nothing, obviously, of the famine and some of the excesses of the Cultural Revolution that followed.
Awesome response thank you, from first reading it seems as if the approach taken did balkanized the region and as a result enflamed the tensions already there, I can see what you mean about empowering a Tibetean Communist Party would be the best option albeit hindsight 20/20, and yes the subsequent famine as a result of grain collectivization did harken back to some aspects of feudal Tibet. Something that I'm sure was a great impact was the KMT and Taiwan, which surely weakened Mao's trust of any organization outside of the CCP. Clearly a very nuanced and complex topic and while I agree there were issues stemming from how CCP handled Tibet but the western containment of the time probably forced Maos hand on top of other things.
I'm far from an expert so I'm glad you took the time to add to this, thanks.
Yea me either which is why I appretiate this discussion.
Yeah clearly there are issues with corruption in the CCP, but western nations track record with intervention is quite a bit worse than China's...
But then who gets to decide what 'China' is in this context? The CCP did a lot of good but how can we accept that they essentially took the Qing Empire's borders and made it a singular nation? Even under the Qing, Tibet etc were not regarded as the same as the 'neidi' (mainland, internal provinces of China). Imo surely the Party could have just propped up local figures and let Tibet conduct its own revolution ie the Soviet model. Do we excuse India for squashing separatism in the name of unity against imperialism either? That was certainly the excuse for Indian troops smashing down militias in Hyderabad and the northeast. This idea that you need a singular polity no matter the cost is a foolish notion.
That was certainly the excuse for Indian troops smashing down militias in Hyderaba
What's not there to support military action in Hyderabad (South India)? Don't confuse this with Kashmir.. in Hyderabad only the ruler didn't want to join in india, majority of population actively rebelled against the Nizam rule and had no reservations joining india. In Kashmir it's reverse, ruler accepted to join but majority population didn't which is why its considered imperialism
Ah I am not referring to take out the Nizam, rather I am referring to the Indian troops massacring the communist and peasant rebels that made up the Telangana movement under the pretenses that they wanted an independent Hyderabad state.
"Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. 12 Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” 13 In fact. it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers."
I think that the immediate liberation via Mao was quite important but I think you have a good point for a goal of the sustained revolution there.
There's nothing inherently good and a whole lot that's very much not good about people being politically organised into ethno-cultural nation states that control the resources those ethnocultural groups have managed to seize. The idea that they should be is a) kinda fashy ("ethnocultural" is often one hell of a dog whistle) b) not great from an individual or human rights standpoint, why should the location of your birth determine what laws you live under or what resources you have a right to? and c) if followed would lead to an unjust and uncommunist world even if each of those nation states were internally communist because among nation states resources would still be distributed arbitrarily and unequally, instead of on a from-each to each basis.
I never used the world "ethno-cultural," and I never would. I agree, that term is pretty fashy.
Like someone else in this thread said, no one likes missionaries with guns. Do you not think it's a fairly natural human impulse to not want to be ruled by a group of people who live far away, speak a different language, know little to nothing about you or your community, and make ruling decisions without listening to you? This is less of an issue with resource management and central planning of the economy, because I think you're very correct that access to resources should not depend on geography of birth, but in practice, socialist states have influenced more than just production and distribution through their policies.
In China, for example, same-sex marriage is still illegal and same-sex couples cannot adopt children, although there are limited civil unions. Would you want to be made to live under these laws in your own country? Answering "no" is not nationalism.
Glad we're on the same page with nation states. Sorry for assuming.
Agree that consent of the governed is important but strong disagree that what people can and can't do should be divided along geographic/"cultural" lines.
I think saying that non cis/straight people born in, or despite not being born in having gone through a great amount of effort to live in China shouldn't be allowed to adopt or get married but people born in/having gone to a great amount of effort to live in not China should be allowed to adopt or get married is definitely nationalism.
I'm a little opposed to the idea that different communities of people should enforce by violence different sets of laws (why should any same-sex couples not be allowed to adopt?) and very opposed to the idea that membership in those communities should be arbitrarily geographically distributed.
I'm definitely NOT trying to say that non-cishet people in China *shouldn't* be allowed to adopt or get married and should have a different standard than people elsewhere. People should be allowed to marry and adopt regardless of where they live, period.
Ideally these kinds of laws shouldn't be determined by geography, we agree on that. However, it's an unfortunate reality that change of attitudes does not happen uniformly across geographic or "cultural" lines. If an important social change (like accepting LGBT people and challenging cisheteronormativity) starts taking hold in a region with no power over its own laws governing the issue, this is an impediment to pushing change forward. Especially when the power to enforce these social standards is highly concentrated, it can be hard for a movement to get off the ground and make gains before getting stomped out from above.
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I guess I still think there's value in the idea of self-determination -- that Tibetan communists should be in charge of Tibet.
Communist states should spread revolution and help establish new communist states elsewhere, but not rule over them.
The governor of the Tibetan Autonomous Region has been ethnically Tibetan since it was founded in 1965.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngapoi_Ngawang_Jigme Read this guys bio and tell me Tibet was overtaken by violent force against their will.
Um, the governor is essentially a figurehead position that is subordinate to the Party secretary. That is true in every autonomous region. A Tibetan has never been Party secretary. Indeed in comprehensive studies of the local Party personnel, historians have argued that basically most major Party positions have always been Han despite Tibetans making up a decent percentage of lower level cadres.
The point is not that Tibet's conditions pre revolution were terrible. But I might note that you all are basically saying that an area the size of Western Europe was entirely a hellhole. That shit is deeply ignorant. There were areas of Tibet with slavery, and likewise there were areas full of relatively progressive reformers. What the CCP initially wanted to do was prop up local reformers and you'll note to that end they worked very heavily with the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama. What changed was that progressive reformers grew disenchanted with how little say they actually had following 1956 when policies took a harsher tone, thus the rebellion and the Dalai Lama fleeing, CIA involvement etc.
The point is this - the CCP admits itself that it took Xinjiang and Tibet to secure the rest of China. The risk of balkanization was too great. Hell I am inclined to agree with that. But the charge that they were there just to spread revolution and to enlighten the local populace is pretty much the same argument that the British made with India. It is dumb. I am sorry, if you believe in a straight up violation of all local autonomy and sovereignty for a vision of unilinear progress WITHOUT also accepting that there was a lot of cynicism involved, then you are blatantly misreading history.
Parenti is good but he is not a historian - there is a shit ton of work by both Western and Chinese historians on Tibet before and after the Revolution and the picture is significantly more complicated than you guys paint it to be.
Calling someone with a Ph.D in political science "not a historian" when referring to the political situation of Tibet/China is... interesting.
The rest of your argument may indeed be persuasive to someone who actually cares about maintaining the dreadful political situation inside of Tibet but that's not me. I dont care that in some rural village there wasnt slavery or whatever. I dont care that the weirdo psycho Lamas lost their power. Fuck all versions of aristocracy, but especially fuck ones that still allowed slavery in the 1950s. A world in which the Chinese dont liberate Tibet is a much worse world.
Does he a PhD in political science in China? I've a PhD in Chinese History. Should I be writing a book about the French Revolution as an expert? Again, Parenti's work isn't bad but it relies on the work other historians did. I say 'did', because the scholarship has evolved a lot since then.
So you basically reveal that you are pretty much a chauvinist - that a backward people should be made to be destroyed and progress regardless of the costs. You would've fit well amongst the progressives of the British Empire, begging to destroy the cruelties of the caste system in India.
sorry bud but slavery is bad.
calling me british (extremely rude) will not change this fact.
Yes, and again...all of Tibet didn't have slavery, and Tibetans themselves were fighting against it before the CCP entered the picture. The logic you are using, and I am sorry if it is rude, is pretty much the same logic of British reformers seeking to civilize the barbarian 'Hindoos'. I don't really see how one can deny that. Would you advocate that the US goes into Mauritania to liberate the pockets of slavery that exist there as well?
no, I advocate that the american empire explode into a million pieces.
I would advocate the Chinese do it though. Same with Vietnamese or Cubans.
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My apologies. I was just somewhat taken aback.
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If you would be open to it an AMA regarding your thoughts and knowledge on Chinese history, especially post communist revolution, would be super interesting.
I took one history course during my B.A Chinese poetry studies but it was long ago.
I would be open to it, but tbh I sometimes find talking about it here a little exhausting. It is not that I think people have bad intentions, but there is often just a lot of bad faith interpretations of China from both demsoc AND tankie positions that navigating all the fraught politics of all and arguing with everyone becomes really tiring. But I'll think about it!
Yea for sure you gotta prioritize your emotional/mental energy, I just like learning and appretiate your perspective.
I would love to read a historians account and the pre and post China intervention analysis if you have a link.
From the parenti article it seems as if the early efforts were focused on infrastructure development whilst attempting to respect the Tibetean people & culture and what shifted it into a more violent liberation was: "The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama's second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet"
I realize this is all from a single referenced source but am open to other sources and point of view on this matter. As it stands now I am of the opinion that the liberation of Tibet was a net positive.
Sure. So in regards to te CIA unprising - it should be noted that the CIA approached the Dalai Lama in 1950, offering to give him supplies to fight the PLA. He refused, for one because he saw what was happening in Korea and didn't believe that Tibet would win any outright war, but also because he genuinely believed the CCP would be a force for good. The CIA then took to other elements, mostly the regressive elites as well as certain dissents in Kham, trained a few and then airlifted them to try and mount a guerrilla war. That was only in Kham and Amdo, however. The real issue that changed things, and caused the Dalai Lama to flee etc was 1959, when those sporadic rebellions spread to Lhasa as well. Fascinatingly enough, historian Chen Jian notes (I can get you a PDF if you want) that the PLA was actually pretty eager to put these down - mostly as a show of force, but also it would be good martial practice. Take that for what you will.
However, to argue that the CCP had been only respectful up until this point is not entirely fair, I think. VIncent Goossaert and David A. Palmer discuss this in regards to religious institutions, from 1956 onwards (noting again that widespread rebellion had not yet really started outside a few rural areas in Kham), the CCP basically to disregard the 17 point agreement through a bit of a loop hole by arguing that Tibetans in Kham and Amdo, some of which were in Sichuan and not formally 'Tibet', would be subjected to land collectivization, including confiscation from monasteries, temples, and traditional land grants. Many landlords and tyrants very thankfully lost their holdings, but a very sizable percentage of the male population were invested in the monastery system. This caused a lot of resentment. Again, even if you can agree that ultimately religious institutions had to be liquidated, this was seen as a breach of trust as from the 1930s onwards when the CCP relied on minorities to keep them safe from the GMD during the Long March, the CCP had promised that the revolutionary measures it would pursue in the mainland and for Han people would not be applied entirely to minority people out of respect for autonomy. That ceased to be the case.
In Tibet itself, as historian Tsering Shakya notes that there was a lot of resentment in places like Lhasa because of the impression that China was 'taking' over the country. Shakya even argues that actually the CCP did a lot of good. Pre-revolution Tibet wasn't all sunshine and roses, and even the Dalai Lama again pretty much agrees that a lot of the early reforms against feudalism etc was necessarsy. But things were a little shakier than the Chinese narrative of thigns also. You had a desire amongst Tibetans to have their own standing army, to be able to conduct its own foreign policy, and also to cap the limit of Chinese settlers and cadres allowed to stay in the territory. A lot of progressive forces wanted the CCP to actually take a harsher stance and to empower them to do the reforms that woudl be necessary. But, Mao was also very cautious about how to go about changing structures in Tibet and other minority areas at this point - he didn't want to rock the boat, somewhat sensibly. To try and get rid of anti-Chinese sentiments in Lhasa and the Tibetan government, though, the Chinese authorities did want to force the coutnry's dual Prime Ministers to be dismissed, and so they were. That sort of unilateral action unfortunately also pissed off the people who were hoping that the CCP would empower progressive elements - there was a simmering feeling that ultimately Chinese cadres were on one hand unwilling to take action but also that when they did so they did without the input of Tibetan officials or activists.
What changed the picture was that when China signed a trade agreement with India in 1953, the Tibetan elites were suddenly a lot more in favor of the Chinese government. Dalai Lama himself was wowed by Zhou Enlai's diplomacy. infrastructure development and roads etc vastly improved. People were given good jobs, Tibet's international standing grew etc. The ruling elite were very happy; ordinary people were somewhat more mixed, due to again growing resentment at the fact that they had very little input before the revolution and continued to have very little after. In 1955, they moved to create the Preparatory Committee for the establishment of the Autonomous Region of Tibet (PCART). This was seen as somewhat of a compromise - Mao had wanted to actually place the region under Beijing's direct administration, buit thought the PCART would be a good way to start transitioning Tibet to a socialistic system of governance. Here is where things get a loittle tricky - the PCART would divde Tibet into three separate groups, and one of these (Chamdo) would begin moving to socialism quicker, under the supervision of the PLA. The Dalai Lama accepted this, but there was a lot of frustration here - PCART was designed essentaily to keep two separate Tibetan actors against each other (the Tibetan Government and the Panchen Lama) and to have another section (Chamdo) effectively operate under Chinese control with nominal Tibetan input. China thought this would all be a great success, but this basically just created a lot of disunity in Tibeta and a lot of anxiety about what China really wanted. Trust broke down, and then the uprising in Kham and Amdo start (again noting those regions were legally under Chinese jurisdiction, not 'Tibet'). Lhasa denounced them entirely, did not want to support the Khampas whatsoever, but all the fighting also craeted a refugee crisis. The root of the fighting, again, was the belief of Tibetans in those areas that Buddhism itself was under attack, and that now a large body of men (monks, many of whom lived quite poorly, particularly the lower level ones) suddenly had no income. This created anxiety in Tibet that the same situation was inevitable there as well.
For what it is worth, Mao himself was not partiularly worried by these anxieties or even the initial rebellions, believing that basically it was a consequence of economic hardship and that Tibetans would cease to resent the Chinese presence eventually. Also aggravating the situation was that PCART was bringing in many more Han cadres, who were alleged of being significantly more callous towards local customs and religion. Chinese officials had to backpedal on some of their initial reforms, tried to placate people, and also outlined that Han Chauvinism was causing resentment throughout Tibet and other autonomous regions. In 1957, after the hundred Flowers speech, Tibetans started voicing a lot more of these anxieties out in the open, and in the context of growing discontent in Kham, Chinese officials were growign a lot more cautious. The whole situation was deteriorating, and local Chinese offiicials in Tibet proper were growing a lot more dismissive of Tibetan complains, basically saying that they believed Tibet belonged in the 'bosom of the motherland'. And so, Han Chauvinism stopped being the enemy - local nationalism became the greater problem. The Khampa rebellion grew larger, affecting eastern Tibet too, and then with the CIA getting involved, the whole situation basically got set on fire.
The lessons here are sort of mixed. Tibetan elites, including many feudal ones, liked the CCP's early policies because essentially it helped them grow their own capital and 'develop' the region. But a lot of regular peasants were more resentful of what they saw as a sort of cultural elitism amongst the TIbetan elites (including the Dalai Lama) as well as the Chinese cadres. Chinese cadres often barely spoke the language, were not particularly sensitive to local needs, and the shifts in Sichuan in Kham and Amdo made people even more afraid. Couple this with PCART's disastrous policies and shifting elite sentiments, and stuff went out of control. Again, imo, the solution to this would have just been to set up a Tibetan Communist Party, supply them with funds and training, and have let Tibet develop its own unique course to revolution. It really is ultimately a sad thing that shit went the way it did. To say nothing, obviously, of the famine and some of the excesses of the Cultural Revolution that followed.
Awesome response thank you, from first reading it seems as if the approach taken did balkanized the region and as a result enflamed the tensions already there, I can see what you mean about empowering a Tibetean Communist Party would be the best option albeit hindsight 20/20, and yes the subsequent famine as a result of grain collectivization did harken back to some aspects of feudal Tibet. Something that I'm sure was a great impact was the KMT and Taiwan, which surely weakened Mao's trust of any organization outside of the CCP. Clearly a very nuanced and complex topic and while I agree there were issues stemming from how CCP handled Tibet but the western containment of the time probably forced Maos hand on top of other things.
I'm far from an expert so I'm glad you took the time to add to this, thanks.
Yea, I'm struggling to see the counter argument. I think it essentially boils down to "things there today are not very good, and China is to blame."
And I'm not sure the extent of truth even that has. I don't know much about Tibet, I admit.
Yea me either which is why I appretiate this discussion. Yeah clearly there are issues with corruption in the CCP, but western nations track record with intervention is quite a bit worse than China's...
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But then who gets to decide what 'China' is in this context? The CCP did a lot of good but how can we accept that they essentially took the Qing Empire's borders and made it a singular nation? Even under the Qing, Tibet etc were not regarded as the same as the 'neidi' (mainland, internal provinces of China). Imo surely the Party could have just propped up local figures and let Tibet conduct its own revolution ie the Soviet model. Do we excuse India for squashing separatism in the name of unity against imperialism either? That was certainly the excuse for Indian troops smashing down militias in Hyderabad and the northeast. This idea that you need a singular polity no matter the cost is a foolish notion.
What's not there to support military action in Hyderabad (South India)? Don't confuse this with Kashmir.. in Hyderabad only the ruler didn't want to join in india, majority of population actively rebelled against the Nizam rule and had no reservations joining india. In Kashmir it's reverse, ruler accepted to join but majority population didn't which is why its considered imperialism
Ah I am not referring to take out the Nizam, rather I am referring to the Indian troops massacring the communist and peasant rebels that made up the Telangana movement under the pretenses that they wanted an independent Hyderabad state.
"Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. 12 Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” 13 In fact. it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers."
I think that the immediate liberation via Mao was quite important but I think you have a good point for a goal of the sustained revolution there.
That sounds like nationalist brainworms.
There's nothing inherently good and a whole lot that's very much not good about people being politically organised into ethno-cultural nation states that control the resources those ethnocultural groups have managed to seize. The idea that they should be is a) kinda fashy ("ethnocultural" is often one hell of a dog whistle) b) not great from an individual or human rights standpoint, why should the location of your birth determine what laws you live under or what resources you have a right to? and c) if followed would lead to an unjust and uncommunist world even if each of those nation states were internally communist because among nation states resources would still be distributed arbitrarily and unequally, instead of on a from-each to each basis.
I never used the world "ethno-cultural," and I never would. I agree, that term is pretty fashy.
Like someone else in this thread said, no one likes missionaries with guns. Do you not think it's a fairly natural human impulse to not want to be ruled by a group of people who live far away, speak a different language, know little to nothing about you or your community, and make ruling decisions without listening to you? This is less of an issue with resource management and central planning of the economy, because I think you're very correct that access to resources should not depend on geography of birth, but in practice, socialist states have influenced more than just production and distribution through their policies.
In China, for example, same-sex marriage is still illegal and same-sex couples cannot adopt children, although there are limited civil unions. Would you want to be made to live under these laws in your own country? Answering "no" is not nationalism.
Glad we're on the same page with nation states. Sorry for assuming.
Agree that consent of the governed is important but strong disagree that what people can and can't do should be divided along geographic/"cultural" lines.
I think saying that non cis/straight people born in, or despite not being born in having gone through a great amount of effort to live in China shouldn't be allowed to adopt or get married but people born in/having gone to a great amount of effort to live in not China should be allowed to adopt or get married is definitely nationalism.
I'm a little opposed to the idea that different communities of people should enforce by violence different sets of laws (why should any same-sex couples not be allowed to adopt?) and very opposed to the idea that membership in those communities should be arbitrarily geographically distributed.
Do you think differently?
I'm definitely NOT trying to say that non-cishet people in China *shouldn't* be allowed to adopt or get married and should have a different standard than people elsewhere. People should be allowed to marry and adopt regardless of where they live, period.
Ideally these kinds of laws shouldn't be determined by geography, we agree on that. However, it's an unfortunate reality that change of attitudes does not happen uniformly across geographic or "cultural" lines. If an important social change (like accepting LGBT people and challenging cisheteronormativity) starts taking hold in a region with no power over its own laws governing the issue, this is an impediment to pushing change forward. Especially when the power to enforce these social standards is highly concentrated, it can be hard for a movement to get off the ground and make gains before getting stomped out from above.