Removed by mod
I miss DroneRights [it/its]
Removed by modIt always had such interesting stuff to say. It was banned recently. I think it should be unbanned and allowed back. It had such interesting perspectives on neurodiversity.
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As an enby, it gave me the red flags of someone doing a cruel parody of a Non-binary person. Someone trying to set bait.
I apologize if it was genuine. It's hard to tell on the internet, but particularly as it had the same style as a lot of our wreckers, it set off a lot of red flags for me.
cruel parody of a Non-binary person
After reading its takes on the formation of personality/personalites in entities with NPD, I think that it was genuine. It talked about how NPD is a disorder involving multiplicity, like DID and OSDD, and how due to severe neglect, and not experiencing love during key developmental stages, no person developed inside of it. So like how with most people, people develop a sense of self, a 'real person' inside their heads, if you will. It talked about how that's not the case in those with NPD. So it not seeming like a real person from the outside makes sense... because of the developmental differences that were instrumental in creating it and its particular type of neurodiversity. I don't think a wrecker could come up with such a nuanced understanding of the inner existence of [edited to add: this type of ] neurodiversity. Also of note, it doesn't consider itself a person, and does not like to be referred to as a person.
I see, that makes sense. This is why I largely stayed out of it. Because it seemed both genuine but set off a lot of my alarms. I'm in two minds about the whole thing and don't know what to think.
It kept giving nods to transphobic dogwhistles. In aggregate, too many to be a coincidence
@DroneRights@hexbear.net and @DroneRights@lemm.ee Both seemed genuine to me.
If Dronerights was just some fake transphobic troll, it wouldn't have made so many effort posts on both accounts. It's first post (which wasn't even on their hexbear account it was on lemm.ee) said it had been harassed and doxxed on its previous blahaj account, tried making the neuronormativism effort post on lemmy.world, and it got removed, so then they made a hexbear account
I don't understand everything it was talking about, but to me it seems like it was just talking about stuff most users and the mods don't really understand, posted 1 or 2 bad takes among like 7 pages of comments and posts, and was banned from being pre-labeled as a troll. It definitely seemed like it was genuine and engaging in good faith, at least to me.
I paid attention to DroneRights from the time its first comment hit the modlog, and I've come to the opposite conclusion on it. To lead with it, I think that the owner of the DroneRights account may also be the owner of FuckYourselfEndless
FYE was a high-concept shitposter with a problematic record, banned a couple of days before DR showed up. Anyway, I didn't have any trouble accepting its explanation that "drone" wasn't meant as "UAV". I'm not a complete stranger to plural identities or otherkin, and I found its perspective on narcissism interesting but cryptic
I did find it sus when it brought up and took umbridge with the idea that a UAVgender person would be met with hostility, because the reasons for that would be so obvious to anyone who's paid attention to popular transphobia. More sus still, when it commented on a gaming post to say that its planekin partner has a crush on the digital airplane in question
Once it got deep into replying to comments on its materialism thread, it got a lot uglier. Particularly, it started framing trans identities as imposing a moral imperitive to perceive them in a way that contradicts reality
ETA since I'm getting specific, here's what I'm talking about with the last part:
And the bottom line is: people who put reality above feelings are cruel to trans people.
banned a couple of days before DR showed up.
Regarding this bit at least it was getting into struggle sessions on blahaj and lemm.ee 14 days ago and FYE was only banned 13 days ago so it's not a perfect match
It struck me a little close to "I identify as an attack helicopter" as a bit to be comfortable, imo, I was surprised the mods allowed them to post for so long on that alone
Forcing the "narcissistic is an ableist slur" struggle session on the second day also read as a reductio ad absurdum against the concept of ableism. Really not hard to imagine them just posting that on some chud site somewhere just to laugh at us for caring at all
I'm genuinely surprised the mods let it go on that long
ableist slurs are BY FAR the most normalized slurs. Incredibly common everyday words, phrases, and most intelligence or sanity based insults come from medical words for disabilities.
If someone who claims to have narcissistic personality disorder makes the arguement that "calling people narcissists as an umbrella term for bad, selfish people is ableist, and dehumanizes people who are aware of their NPD and struggle with it."
then take it in good faith
While I agree with your first statement, "narcissist" has been an insult for literally thousands of years before it was the name of a mental disorder. The problem here is that the medical community named a personality disorder after an existing word that means bad and selfish.
Yes, the medical community was also ableist in choosing the name of the disorder, but people living with it still deserve to not have their condition stigmatized. Language changes, and we should make a conscious effort to choose language in a non-ableist way.
The medical community is influenced by the profit motive under capitalism. We need to do what we can to stand up for our comrades and create a less ableist world. The authorities in the medical establishment often perpetuate systemic ableism, and we need to do better than them.
The point is that if a user says "hey I have NPD and the use of narcissism as an insult by you is insulting to me and other NPD people" instead of looking for possible angles to attack the user from and instantly calling them a wrecker, just do some self crit, listen to what they have to say, and try not to use it in words in a way that makes them feel unwelcome.
If casual ableism and ableist insults are something the site as a whole wants to discuss, we can do that. I'm sure a lot of people are willing to die on the hill of not doing self-crit for the sake of the ND community, but we could do that.
In the meantime, just don't instantly assume bad faith when talking to users, and if they are talking about ND issues, be willing to listen.
I don't mean to be combative, but I really don't like this line of thought. You could say the same thing about someone defending themselves after other people refuse to use their neopronouns. Yeah, technically that could be a wrecker trying to paint us as sensitive. But odds are that's a real person, and we'd be horrible allies to leave them out to dry because of the off chance they're trying to get a screen cap that proves something about us. What's the worst it could show about us? That we're open to reconsidering what language we use? That we listen to marginalized people and their experiences?
I think a user of neopronouns would be more sensitive to they/them comrades rather than
cw my read on the transphobic material
Claim it's not a gender at all
I mean the fact that it used neopronouns then denied another set of pronouns as identity is just absolute rank hypocrisy and pretty much indefensible. Again, I said this below, neurodiversity isn't an excuse to be shitty to our trans comrades.
It just seems manifestly bad faith to have a very specific identity and neopronouns then to shit on a large group of our trans comrades.
Fair enough, but then cite this, not unrelated "bad vibes". I know it wasn't you upthread, but it really strikes me the wrong way that some were saying Dronerights was acting like a wrecker because it seemed like a caricature.
Yeah like I'd rather treat an "attack helicopter" wrecker earnestly and then eventually ban them when the mask drops than treat some comrade shittily who earnestly identifies that way.
I'm not trying to start a struggle session, but I wonder if there is a site policy on "race change to another". I'm thinking of the recent QAA pod on it, and while I know we're in neurodiverse, I feel like it's relevant to the conversation about DroneRights coming in with an unfamiliar trans identity (at least as far as it presented itself).
Should we bother with RCTA people or someone who claims they are "transracial" or some shit? Or should we just ban it...
I'm not equipped to comment on this personally, but would rather just have the mods come up with a transparent and proactive policy so expectations are clear and if we as a community determine that's unacceptable we can educate new comrades right away that that shit doesn't (or does, again I'm mostly interested in what our nonwhite comrades think about this rather than my own opinion) fly.
Its commentary on the use of the word made a lot more sense when I read the rest of what they wrote about it. There's such a stigma around narcissistic personality disorder that it's no wonder most with that disorder don't talk about it. I think it was cool to hear from the perspective of an entitiy with NPD. And it is ableist to use a medical condition as a pejorative. It makes sense that it would talk about it as soon as it came up, since it has NPD.
Mods on this site are so fucking gullible. Meanwhile, my masterpieces are gettin' banned because they don't understand what a joke is.
You can be inclusive to xenogenders, or you can preemptively ban anyone that gets close to that. You can't do both at once. I don't see what line it was crossing, and I'm sad to see this attitude.
I actually think it was sincere. But it also had some extremely spicy takes and I thought there was an approaching ban deadline
Once again, wreckers can be sincere. “Wrecker” doesn’t require intent, only actions
are you saying that good faith, sincere ND users that give people "bad vibes", are confused about leftism but want to learn, and have some reactionary misconceptions should be treated the same as willfully malicious users, or just assumed to be fake users? Because that's gonna exclude a fuck ton of well meaning ND people
A site culture of interpreting questionable posts and arguments in bad faith and then users immediately going on the attack is what drove away the neurodiverse modteam and countless neurodiverse users.
Our sites culture in the first year few years was everyone being agressive and arguing all the time, and people in the ND comm constantly being afraid of being misinterpreted and banned for social mistakes, and concerns from those users were not being listened to the until we got to the point where the ND inclusivety comm lost its moderators and its activity. The method to countering large struggle sessions became locking and removing all discussion about it, instead of dealing with any of the real problems of how users here treat each other
Ok I checked the modlog and I see why it was banned :( As a person who uses they/them pronouns, people are gendering me correctly when they use they/them pronouns for me.
I’m not going to comment on DroneRights too much since I haven’t seen all of its post that led to the ban, but I did appreciate it pointing out that NPD is a designation that belongs under the neurodiversity label. This is an area that is very fraught, and I have deeply conflicting feelings about.
I have people in my life that have not been diagnosed but who behave in ways that I feel would probably merit them being diagnosed with NPD. They have caused me and people I love immense pain. I still feel that they are people and deserve the same respect and care that we all deserve.
I feel this will require an effort post from me which I’m not currently able to write so please allow some time for me to flesh out my thoughts on this
There are some popular science books on narcissism that do a good job of giving an overview of contemporary research. One I read was "The New Science of Narcissism" and another one, I think "Disarming the Narcissist" but I can't remember the exact name. They were recommended by my therapist to deal with my father and brother whom she said seemed to have some narcissistic tendencies (but who she couldn't diagnose for obvious reasons).
The first book talks about grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism which are ways to understand people who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The experiences of the people seemed very sad, it made me significantly more sympathetic and empathetic to people who seem to be narcissistic. I still keep my distance and I don't treat cast judgement anymore.
it had good takes like the narcissism thing but the materialism post was very confusing. im not really sure honestly. I ALWAYS fall for stuff im very gullible so maybe im wrong, but i do feel bad for it. I say give it one more chance after explaining what it did wrong, and It apologizes. that seems fair.
I wouldn't be surprised if part of why it was banned was because the mods and many of the users weren't familiar with its type of neurodiversity.
Everyone engaged in good faith, and I'm sorry, even if it was neurodiverse that's not a pass to try and do erasure on enby comrades. (Especially since we all respected its pronouns)
That instance is very cut and dry to me and I don't see much reason to keep it around.
I think that's how I feel about it. While I never saw enough of DroneRights to really make any sort of solid conclusion about it, it said a number of things that felt kind of weird or hard to understand, misinformed-but-thinks-it-knows-better, or even kind of confrontational... But that's ultimately just how some ND people are, right? My brother is like that, and you could even say that I was like that as a preteen.
So to me nothing about DroneRights really seemed like any sort of fake or plant or whatever. I'm not going to say that DroneRights being ND and queer makes the ban necessarily unjust — the things it was saying were genuinely kind of offensive and sectarian sometimes — but I will say that I don't like seeing people acting like that type of person is necessarily "doing a bit", as opposed to just being ND and queer in a way that people don't like.
Yeah imo, it was kind of a dick sometimes but it didn't seem like a wrecker, just confrontational and argumentative but well meaning
Idk, I don't think it deserved a ban, it seems unfair to like, wrecker jacket it
Yeah. If being kind of a dick sometimes, and being confrontational and argumentative but meaning well are grounds for banning, then to make things fair the mods have a lot of banning to do...
Also of note, from what it posted before it was banned, it does not like being referred to as a person.
There are going to be bad takes sometimes. Those operating in good faith should be informed of what went wrong. Neurodiverse users are not necessarily going to know where the unspoken, invisible social lines are. We should strive for a culture where neurodiverse users acting in good faith are treated with the respect that other users acting in good faith are given.
Agree with you completely. Moderating a big leftist community is hard, and giving users a little more leeway with controversial posts would make it harder.
I feel like if this site values neurodiversity, site policy should change to not insta ban people who are just misguided and not willfully malicious, and our agressive "dunking" culture needs to chill out a bit.
made an amazing effort post a day or two ago about our culture of dunking and assumed bad faith.
Our community really needs to discuss ND inclusivity in this site and in moderation.
I'm glad to see this brought up, because I've already had someone be aggressive to me because of my communication style here and it has turned me off from commenting.
And in general I've seen a lot of casual ableism here. Mostly in the dunk tank. I don't think that calling people "idiots" just because they haven't been educated on a topic is okay. Normalized slurs are still slurs.
I think this is a great approach. I also used to use lemmygrad and I mentioned I was not comfortable with others and the way they made claims, in no way putting them down I think and apologizing preemptively if I was, and I still was met with less than nice comments.
I came to hexbear and I find comrades here significantly more supportive and respectful, which has made me stay here and comment and interact more than I have in any other online community. I still love the comrades over at lemmygrad, I think I just would like to keep a bit of distance there. I also think when they see I am from hexbear there's an automatic solidarity between us and I see more good faith responses as a result.
I'm tired of withdrawing from spaces where I don't feel welcome. There's basically nowhere left. Almost all spaces are hostile to ND people, and the places made for ND people are all extremely liberal to the point where I simply can't relate with anyone. I'm tired of standing outside of the spaces where people meet and socialize and looking through the glass. This is how ND people end up isolated.
Really sorry to hear that comrade. It's definitely hard. It makes me wonder if something like a village at some point in the past may have been ideal (assuming all material needs were met, which is a big assumption) since there would be some sense of community.
Wishing you the best 🤗
