If a politician can't actually do what you want them to do, blaming them is ridiculous.
To have any sort of worthwhile discussion about this, you have to dig into the reality of what's possible and what's actually been done. That will be different in different situations. Lumping all situations into one "everyone has excuses" bucket is as silly as laying equal blame at a 5-foot person and a 7-foot person for not being able to dunk a basketball.
I agree, that's why I voted for Biden in the primary. I'm sure you did too. Or are we only supposed to make the "tactical calculations" you agree with?
But there's a tactical reason to propose those bills: they have the massive political support needed to advance any sort of leftist movement. An anti-sanction bill on Venezuela or Cuba or Iran would do the opposite.
Obama ran on healthcare. Biden ran on "remember Obama?"
Americans are notoriously ignorant about the rest of the world. Foreign policy in elections is more about talking points than anything substantive. It's mostly trap questions that voters will give you no credit for acing.
It’s mostly trap questions that voters will give you no credit for acing.
There's no benefit -- nothing will pass, and she will gain no supporters even if she makes the best argument possible -- and she will get dragged through the :vuvuzela: mud by even non-chud media if she breaks ranks.
You are probably the most evil person who posts here regularly.
How do you hope to get anything done if you're that far detached from reality? Calling other leftists evil for having the gall to point out that politicians make compromises is cop shit.
You are saying AOC’s line on Venezuela is good, correct
No, I'm saying that it's understandable for politicians to give non-answers when no movement on the issue is possible, and when you can only lose ground by getting drawn in to a discussion. I'm saying we shouldn't rake one of the furthest-left politicians in the country over the coals because they're making an understandable compromise on such an issue.
You're not just arguing against that, you're calling that evil. Get your head out of your ass and go talk to someone who isn't a terminally-online leftist.
I’m saying that it’s understandable for politicians to give non-answers when no movement on the issue is possible
The Democrats have removed sanctions on Venezuela before during Chavez's leadership. It is significantly more "possible" than Medicare for All or Green New Deal. The Democratic Party would not exist without the medical industry or the oil industry.
You don't see me bringing this fact up to be like "See? AOC should not talk about these things at all! She should stick to what's possible." Because that is reactionary nonsense you hear from people trying to stonewall progress.
You refuse to admit that because you care about those issues, and you do not care about the people suffering under the US sanction regime.
That is why you are fucking evil. You are aware of how the Democrats function. But you hold out hope that if your favorite politician does imperialism good enough, they'll give you health care.
What's politically possible changes over the course of a decade.
And again with the cop shit. Calling other leftists evil wrecks organizations, full stop. Hope online pissing matches feel good, because you're not ending imperialism, you're not getting healthcare, you're not agreeing on what fucking movie to watch if you turn disagreements about the best way forward into "you, personally, are evil."
Try that shit out on anyone who's working through the process of radicalization and they'll look at you like you're one of those libertarians booing driver's licenses. Just an asshole living in another reality who's totally disinterested in getting anything done.
You'd be surprised how infrequently "yes, the US does imperialism against Venezuela, but AOC commenting on it has 'no benefit'" comes up in organizing.
In fact, it has never came up for me. Anti-Venezuelan sentiment has came up in my work exactly one time. A white woman crashed a Central American Task Force event to yell about how Chavez made her family eat trash.
I'm talking about finding one of the few people in this country who outright opposes capitalism, and then accusing them of irredeemable moral failings because of a disagreement over retail politics that has zero material impact either way.
Again, I'm begging you, pull your head out of your ass and don't act like you're trying to sabotage whatever group you're in.
There's nothing "irredeemable" about this, and I don't care that you "oppose capitalism."
You are arguing for social democratic candidates to go along with imperialism, because Americans may be rewarded with social democracy.
You are arguing that people should not criticize social democrats supporting empire because it may damage this negotiation. That is supremely evil.
You claim it is about "pragmatism", but it is not. If Cuba and Iran are any indicators, we are more likely to see sanctions dropped on Venezuela than we are to see Medicare for All implemented.
I will support the actions of politicians when they support my political aims. I will criticize them when they don’t.
This has been my line on AOC. This is the line you have been pushing back on. You don't want people criticizing AOC because you support her political calculations.
Again, I’m begging you, pull your head out of your ass and don’t act like you’re trying to sabotage whatever group you’re in.
Get over yourself. This is not an organization. We are not organizing. You got called something mean online for saying depraved shit.
If a politician can't actually do what you want them to do, blaming them is ridiculous.
To have any sort of worthwhile discussion about this, you have to dig into the reality of what's possible and what's actually been done. That will be different in different situations. Lumping all situations into one "everyone has excuses" bucket is as silly as laying equal blame at a 5-foot person and a 7-foot person for not being able to dunk a basketball.
You sound like you are pitching Biden to me.
I'm not a bourgeois politician. I do not need to do opportunistic political calculations. I don't care about the AOC you imagined in your mind.
I will support the actions of politicians when they support my political aims. I will criticize them when they don't.
Good luck getting anything done without ever compromising or making a tactical calculation. That approach has worked out great for the left.
I agree, that's why I voted for Biden in the primary. I'm sure you did too. Or are we only supposed to make the "tactical calculations" you agree with?
Then why rip on AOC for not doing something more, when you can't specify what meaningful additional step she could have accomplished?
I never said I couldn't specify steps she can take. Introducing a bill to lift sanctions on Venezuela would be a great start.
Would that have any chance of passing?
That's a great argument against her Green New Deal bill. Or her Medicare-for-All bill. She can't even get those up for a vote.
But there's a tactical reason to propose those bills: they have the massive political support needed to advance any sort of leftist movement. An anti-sanction bill on Venezuela or Cuba or Iran would do the opposite.
Obama ran on lifting sanctions against Cuba, and it was incredibly popular.
Biden ran on re-entering the Iran Nuclear Deal, which lifts sanctions on Iran.
Your "tactics" are just "prioritize things that benefit me." It's incredibly obvious.
Obama ran on healthcare. Biden ran on "remember Obama?"
Americans are notoriously ignorant about the rest of the world. Foreign policy in elections is more about talking points than anything substantive. It's mostly trap questions that voters will give you no credit for acing.
Then there's no reason AOC should be silent on the US sanctions regime.
There's no benefit -- nothing will pass, and she will gain no supporters even if she makes the best argument possible -- and she will get dragged through the :vuvuzela: mud by even non-chud media if she breaks ranks.
There's no benefit to standing up for the people oppressed by the government you represent.
You are probably the most evil person who posts here regularly.
Agreed, just a massive fucking lib
How do you hope to get anything done if you're that far detached from reality? Calling other leftists evil for having the gall to point out that politicians make compromises is cop shit.
You aren't pointing out politicians make compromises. I've said that several times already.
You are saying AOC's line on Venezuela is good, correct, and criticizing it is wrong.
This is what you are arguing against.
No, I'm saying that it's understandable for politicians to give non-answers when no movement on the issue is possible, and when you can only lose ground by getting drawn in to a discussion. I'm saying we shouldn't rake one of the furthest-left politicians in the country over the coals because they're making an understandable compromise on such an issue.
You're not just arguing against that, you're calling that evil. Get your head out of your ass and go talk to someone who isn't a terminally-online leftist.
The Democrats have removed sanctions on Venezuela before during Chavez's leadership. It is significantly more "possible" than Medicare for All or Green New Deal. The Democratic Party would not exist without the medical industry or the oil industry.
You don't see me bringing this fact up to be like "See? AOC should not talk about these things at all! She should stick to what's possible." Because that is reactionary nonsense you hear from people trying to stonewall progress.
You refuse to admit that because you care about those issues, and you do not care about the people suffering under the US sanction regime.
That is why you are fucking evil. You are aware of how the Democrats function. But you hold out hope that if your favorite politician does imperialism good enough, they'll give you health care.
What's politically possible changes over the course of a decade.
And again with the cop shit. Calling other leftists evil wrecks organizations, full stop. Hope online pissing matches feel good, because you're not ending imperialism, you're not getting healthcare, you're not agreeing on what fucking movie to watch if you turn disagreements about the best way forward into "you, personally, are evil."
Try that shit out on anyone who's working through the process of radicalization and they'll look at you like you're one of those libertarians booing driver's licenses. Just an asshole living in another reality who's totally disinterested in getting anything done.
We are not an organization. I am not organizing with you.
You're not organizing with anyone with your lack of perspective.
You'd be surprised how infrequently "yes, the US does imperialism against Venezuela, but AOC commenting on it has 'no benefit'" comes up in organizing.
In fact, it has never came up for me. Anti-Venezuelan sentiment has came up in my work exactly one time. A white woman crashed a Central American Task Force event to yell about how Chavez made her family eat trash.
I'm talking about finding one of the few people in this country who outright opposes capitalism, and then accusing them of irredeemable moral failings because of a disagreement over retail politics that has zero material impact either way.
Again, I'm begging you, pull your head out of your ass and don't act like you're trying to sabotage whatever group you're in.
There's nothing "irredeemable" about this, and I don't care that you "oppose capitalism."
You are arguing for social democratic candidates to go along with imperialism, because Americans may be rewarded with social democracy.
You are arguing that people should not criticize social democrats supporting empire because it may damage this negotiation. That is supremely evil.
You claim it is about "pragmatism", but it is not. If Cuba and Iran are any indicators, we are more likely to see sanctions dropped on Venezuela than we are to see Medicare for All implemented.
This has been my line on AOC. This is the line you have been pushing back on. You don't want people criticizing AOC because you support her political calculations.
Get over yourself. This is not an organization. We are not organizing. You got called something mean online for saying depraved shit.
Cop shit.
Ending the "Democratic rhetorical strategy" marathon with "foreign interference." Nice.
You did good work today, officer -- log off for a bit. You deserve it.