I feel that this is getting dangerously close to "both parties are the same so don't vote". I can say for sure that electing one of these parties will definitely be better, or at least not as bad, as the other. One of them is going to govern anyway so you might as well pick.
Of course, I don't expect you to answer that question; you've got no way of knowing whether I'm an FBI agent or something. But think about it for a bit.
Are you working with the next Vladamir Lenin, or do you just fantasize about it?
The people disagreeing with me on the internet opinions don't matter because I don't think they're involved in meaningful plots against the most powerful and entrenched imperialist state on earth.
If you want to vote cool. There's arguements for strategic voting. There's arguements for harm reduction, though in the US those arguements are pretty thin.
But in most of the US your vote doesn't matter. If you live somewhere where it does and you think its better to vot than not, fine.
Talking all the time about voting and presenting it as a solution is a real problem. Literally lying that the Democrats are good as an attempt at harm reduction is very fucking stupid for socialists to do.
But voting itself is usually very quick and easy (especially if you're white), so it's generally silly not to. I'd rather fight Democrats than Republicans, and it takes like half an hour. It's not a personal moral endorsement. If it took a few weeks yeah you should do something more useful for a few weeks, but it's like half an hour. Despite the marginal utility, it's probably better than whatever else you can do in half an hour.
I feel that this is getting dangerously close to "both parties are the same so don't vote".
Yes.
I can say for sure that electing one of these parties will definitely be better, or at least not as bad, as the other.
Who gives a fuck. You don't get a vote for being less bad, you get a vote for being good. If they don't earn your fucking vote you're just guaranteeing that you do not matter and are completely and totally powerless. Congratulations, they know they have your vote as long as they permanently remain "less bad" than the other party. The other party can march rightwards, they can follow, and you will forever give them your vote as long as they're less bad.
The democrats today are what the republicans were 30 years ago. You are voting for Reagan.
When does it end? How far right do the dems go before you withdraw yourself from endorsing them entirely? Do you ever stop? You don't. You keep on going with this mentality forever, and you keep moving further and further right along with them.
you're right. the democrats are driving towards the brick wall of fascism at 100mph while the republicans are driving towards it at 110mph.
I'm sure the Afghan children that got drone striked under both Obama and Trump see a meaningful difference between the American political parties
And primary elections exist
Wow, you mean I get to "choose" from a pre-selected roster which bourgeois ghoul I get to vote for in the general! Amazing! Truly we can abolish capitalism by working within its limitations. I never considered that, by simply allowing the beast to consume me, I might be able to destroy it from the inside, as I am being dissolved by its stomach acid!
Yeah, but Biden says "Bidenomics" and then puts on sunglasses as the cost of living crisis continues to spiral out of control, then breaks strikes. So on domestic stuff he's great.
And what about social issues? Biden was in power when Roe was overturned! What a hero to women.
The DNC said in court primaries are theirs to screw with and the voters don't matter. They exist to funnel dissent into voting for the briber and to stiffle growth in other parties. Not to ensure the strongest candidate comes out of it. A number of key states also require you to register way in advance of even primaries in order to lock people in the 2 party trap and make it harder to vote for a 3rd party whenever the two major corporations churn out their shit sandwich and giant douche "choices".
3rd parties exist. Don't let any scare you into not voting for your values or claim that voting 3rd party is the equivalent of "not voting".
They're just desperately afraid they might have to compromise with an actual leftist one day instead of a fascist and that make
You can vote for a third-party candidate. Or write in "Karl Marx". The point of voting is to make politicians know that you are there and have values, but they have failed to earn your vote this time. If enough people do this then they'll notice a significant voting block that is doing this and maybe be encouraged to think "hmm, how can I earn these people's votes?".
The Democratic party did shift when socialist party membership was growing in the US and also when the black panther party was becoming popular. I think at this point you're right, they would probably just rather lose to Republicans these days than compromise and risk making their corporate friends mad.
That's true that they did at those times. I don't think that at this point there will be any concessions to workers for a few reasons, but mainly because at the time you're talking about capital was operating under the Kenyesian model which it took on to adapt to the economic crisis of the Great Depression in addition to donestic labor movements and the existence of the USSR.
Now the combination of neoliberal ideology and the fall of the USSR making them believe in the end of history, i don't think we'll ever see concessions again
You are absolutely correct but I don't think that's necessarily a reason to not vote or support third parties anymore. If anything, there's an even greater need for us to count our numbers now.
I think voting where and how it could be effective makes sense, particularly at the local level. National politics i don't think can meaningfully be affected by us at this moment, but i wouldn't tell anyone to not vote
Vote, whatever. Just stop pretending like it's actually going to make any meaningful progress. Sure fill in your little bubble every few years, in the meantime work on more productive things like overthrowing the imperialist capitalist system.
I feel that this is getting dangerously close to "both parties are the same so don't vote". I can say for sure that electing one of these parties will definitely be better, or at least not as bad, as the other. One of them is going to govern anyway so you might as well pick.
And primary elections exist.
deleted by creator
If you want change, you can either participate in the current political system or plot to replace it.
Complaining on the Internet doesn't count.
I'm participating by voting third party.
You can, and that is in fact better than not voting.
So voting is just your way of feeling superior to people.
"I don't have to do anything else because i
d , now i can complain on the internet"
woah woah woah, I can walk and chew gum at the same time, NATE
just like you're participating in the current system and complaining on the internet at the same time
What plot are you participating in?
Of course, I don't expect you to answer that question; you've got no way of knowing whether I'm an FBI agent or something. But think about it for a bit.
Are you working with the next Vladamir Lenin, or do you just fantasize about it?
The people disagreeing with me on the internet opinions don't matter because I don't think they're involved in meaningful plots against the most powerful and entrenched imperialist state on earth.
Fuck you dude
If you want to vote cool. There's arguements for strategic voting. There's arguements for harm reduction, though in the US those arguements are pretty thin.
But in most of the US your vote doesn't matter. If you live somewhere where it does and you think its better to vot than not, fine.
But this liberalism you're speaking is pointless.
Talking all the time about voting and presenting it as a solution is a real problem. Literally lying that the Democrats are good as an attempt at harm reduction is very fucking stupid for socialists to do.
But voting itself is usually very quick and easy (especially if you're white), so it's generally silly not to. I'd rather fight Democrats than Republicans, and it takes like half an hour. It's not a personal moral endorsement. If it took a few weeks yeah you should do something more useful for a few weeks, but it's like half an hour. Despite the marginal utility, it's probably better than whatever else you can do in half an hour.
I don't think you and i disagree by much.
My point is more that, if seeing the above meme your reaction is that "this is dangerous because
" than i think its just lib nonsense
Yeah for sure.
Yes.
Who gives a fuck. You don't get a vote for being less bad, you get a vote for being good. If they don't earn your fucking vote you're just guaranteeing that you do not matter and are completely and totally powerless. Congratulations, they know they have your vote as long as they permanently remain "less bad" than the other party. The other party can march rightwards, they can follow, and you will forever give them your vote as long as they're less bad.
The democrats today are what the republicans were 30 years ago. You are voting for Reagan.
When does it end? How far right do the dems go before you withdraw yourself from endorsing them entirely? Do you ever stop? You don't. You keep on going with this mentality forever, and you keep moving further and further right along with them.
you're right. the democrats are driving towards the brick wall of fascism at 100mph while the republicans are driving towards it at 110mph.
I'm sure the Afghan children that got drone striked under both Obama and Trump see a meaningful difference between the American political parties
Wow, you mean I get to "choose" from a pre-selected roster which bourgeois ghoul I get to vote for in the general! Amazing! Truly we can abolish capitalism by working within its limitations. I never considered that, by simply allowing the beast to consume me, I might be able to destroy it from the inside, as I am being dissolved by its stomach acid!
Oh really, cause Biden doubled Trump's deportation numbers and is arming nazis in Europe, seem to be the same to me
Yeah, but Biden says "Bidenomics" and then puts on sunglasses as the cost of living crisis continues to spiral out of control, then breaks strikes. So on domestic stuff he's great.
And what about social issues? Biden was in power when Roe was overturned! What a hero to women.
You forgot he saved us like 5 cents on our 4th of july bbq. That thing we all do
The DNC said in court primaries are theirs to screw with and the voters don't matter. They exist to funnel dissent into voting for the briber and to stiffle growth in other parties. Not to ensure the strongest candidate comes out of it. A number of key states also require you to register way in advance of even primaries in order to lock people in the 2 party trap and make it harder to vote for a 3rd party whenever the two major corporations churn out their shit sandwich and giant douche "choices".
3rd parties exist. Don't let any
scare you into not voting for your values or claim that voting 3rd party is the equivalent of "not voting".
They're just desperately afraid they might have to compromise with an actual leftist one day instead of a fascist and that make
Refer to this post here regarding your defense of electoralism being a valid and legitimate form of praxis.
Lmao my vote doesn't even fucking count why should I even bother going out to vote for a RedMAGA or BluMAGA presidental candidate.
You can vote for a third-party candidate. Or write in "Karl Marx". The point of voting is to make politicians know that you are there and have values, but they have failed to earn your vote this time. If enough people do this then they'll notice a significant voting block that is doing this and maybe be encouraged to think "hmm, how can I earn these people's votes?".
The Democratic party did shift when socialist party membership was growing in the US and also when the black panther party was becoming popular. I think at this point you're right, they would probably just rather lose to Republicans these days than compromise and risk making their corporate friends mad.
That's true that they did at those times. I don't think that at this point there will be any concessions to workers for a few reasons, but mainly because at the time you're talking about capital was operating under the Kenyesian model which it took on to adapt to the economic crisis of the Great Depression in addition to donestic labor movements and the existence of the USSR.
Now the combination of neoliberal ideology and the fall of the USSR making them believe in the end of history, i don't think we'll ever see concessions again
You are absolutely correct but I don't think that's necessarily a reason to not vote or support third parties anymore. If anything, there's an even greater need for us to count our numbers now.
I think voting where and how it could be effective makes sense, particularly at the local level. National politics i don't think can meaningfully be affected by us at this moment, but i wouldn't tell anyone to not vote
No of course not, but there is value in counting our forces.
That is not how voting works in the US, the preferences of voters are absolutely not in line with the actions of politicians
Also your comment is just delusional after 15 years of Citizens United
It's clear politics is just spectacle to you
Vote, whatever. Just stop pretending like it's actually going to make any meaningful progress. Sure fill in your little bubble every few years, in the meantime work on more productive things like overthrowing the imperialist capitalist system.
*Taps the sign*