It's not that avoiding elections altogether is necessarily the correct approach, but this is just one more example of AOC and her co-thinkers doing electoral politics wrong. We desperately need more independent socialist candidates with a sober, correct understanding of the fact that if they win seats they're fighting on the enemy's turf and shouldn't join any coalitions with libs or liquidate themselves under a liberal or popular-frontist banner. By operating within the same party, AOC and friends have repeatedly had to bend the knee to Pelosi and the neoliberal clique.
Who the fuck is we? We're not anybody. We are an undifferentiated mass of political consumers. We have no shape or political will and no ability to express that will even if it did exist. This chart might as well be a ranking list for people's fantasy football leagues, it doesn't mean anything for you and me and we have no way to impact it.
Not only should we disregard whatever the hell AOC and other entryists are doing, but we also crucially stop acting like passive consumers of politics and actually learn to participate in politics and build a power base for the working class, starting from the local scale and working up from there. Even if you're stuck at home and mostly socially atomized, you can still spread Marxist agitprop through social media to plant seeds in the minds of liberal workers who might radicalize a few years from now. If you're in an org, make sure that org can publish editorials on a consistent basis. A century ago it was standard for Marxist groups to publish their own newspapers and pamphlets, and some still literally do this in addition to maintaining their own websites with archives of their public material. Putting up leaflets is also a good tactic for raising a Marxist banner, making passersby aware that your org exists in their community. Joining an org while also belonging to a trade union allows you to "sink roots" into the working class, linking up union rank-and-file with a potentially revolutionary movement and potential revolutionary party. Once we're organized enough at the local level and have community support from local workers, we can start running independent working-class candidates, using a strategy similar to that of Kshama Sawant in Seattle (minus the counterproductive cheerleading for Dem entryism, of course).
We are an undifferentiated mass of political consumers. We have no shape or political will and no ability to express that will even if it did exist.
The point of my lengthy response was to point towards actions and a path socialists can take right now to start working on solving this problem. You said we're currently too disorganized to make a difference, which is correct. The solution is to start organizing and attracting workers towards a Marxist banner in a disciplined and principled fashion, including taking the steps I outlined, so that at a later time we will have the power to make a difference. Like earlier generations of Marxists we should plant the seeds of trees whose fruit and shade we might not live to enjoy, but which our descendants will.
Imagining that shouting loud enough or writing enough letters to your congressman will get m4a passed or even voted on is pure liberalism. Organize a collective front and stage strikes/get militant if you want to effect actual political outcomes. Everything else is either jerking off or whining, or god forbid a mix of both
if you believe in direct action organizing I don't see why you would see forcing a vote as somehow a bad thing, you can organize and do electoral pressure to push from all fronts, saying this is a waste of time is just giving yourself an excuse not to do anything and reeks of "I'm smart because I think this is dumb but I'm also not doing anything to help"
This is a waste of time because of the desired outcome. What will a vote accomplish? We'll out the bad actors within the party and then everyone will see them as the cretins they are and lo and behold the Democratic party will swing left overnight? This is conspiracy minded bs that imagines that a great revelation to the public will somehow result in political change rather than a progression of material forces. You're turning material dialectics back on its head towards Hegelian dialectics where the superstructure is the engine of history rather than the base. There is no end goal here, it's just back to trying to distinguish bad and good actors again so we can jerk off about how much we love some and hate the others and then we'll repeat the process in 2-4 years. Join a fucking union or something, jesus
it's not a "conspiracy" to think forcing corporate Dems to explain to their voters why they voted against healthcare for all is a good thing and beneficial to the long term goal of passing M4A
right, so you admit you didn't actually have a reason to be against this other than to act like you're somehow superior for calling it pointless
I feel doomer all the time, but I'm actively trying to avoid spreading it because it doesn't help anybody and why should I get in the way of ppl actually trying something
Nah you're still wrong but you seem like you're committed to it so go off queen/king. Me yelling at you on chapo.chat is as pointless a time sink as you yelling at AOC or Jimmy Dore or whoever on twitter. Have fun with it if it gets your rocks off my guy, I just don't see this as genuine praxis that is moving a left wing movement towards a goal line. First and foremost because there is no constituted left wing movement within US politics, just a bunch of disparate opinion havers and the working class masses who must suffer the ill wishes of our rulers
nice, and what does that have to do with healthcare exactly? why do you feel the need to take down a movement you're not a part of? should I come over to where you work and tell everyone "don't bother with this green shit this is a pointless gesture and will never get us Green New Deal/M4A"
no because that would be fucking stupid and irrelevant
still didn't answer if you're actually doing anything yourself.
looking back at how you're talking about organizing and direct action, i think you might be confused about what those things are and what purposes they serve.
You've been given plenty of good reasons why this issue is a non-starter. You also said forcing the vote would be good for organizing. Being a supporter of something is good and all, but it isn't organizing. I'm really curious what it would look like to use this vote as an organizing tool. Likewise, if you don't see how my building local power with my own organizing is good for the broader fight for m4a, then i really suggest you explore more about how organizing works
haha struck a nerve did I? your "green schools" bullshit is pretty pointless tbh, but I'm not going to tear it down as to why since I'm not doing anything to help the environment
Accusations of ultraleftist abstention I get, but how the fuck do you read the decision to stay out of this fight as opportunist? CTH, for example, is clearly taking an """ultraleft""" anti-entryist position here, not an opportunist one. Probably significantly different from whatever V****'s motivations are. Pressuring Pelosi externally to win M4A is something I can get behind, but why tie this campaign to the doomed struggle to control the uncontrollable (from the inside) Democratic Party? Why trust AOC to lead this sort of fight when this is her strategy to win leverage? She's still playing the fucking shell game without understanding that it's a shell game and encouraging the left more broadly to do the same.
My use of sarcastic scare quotes was to emphasize the false conflation with an actual ultraleft position (complete abstention from elections) and the "ultraleft" position of breaking completely away from entryism into capitalist parties. You're correct that if we're gonna do electoral politics, we should do so putting forth our own program/platform with a list of carefully-formulated demands we want to fight and organize for, and putting forth our own working-class candidates to represent us, ones subject to instant recall by party membership and committed to only taking pay equivalent to that of an average/typical working-class person from the community they represent to ensure they still have skin in the game.
this isn't even an external pressure campaign... "call your reps" is the fucking opportunist line. AOC, I get. she's hitched her wagon to this eternally-doomed strategy. I'm honestly more skeptical of the rest of the people pushing this. this whole thing seems to me like socdems arguing with each other about the best way to flail ineffectually and there are more opportunists than not involved.
My point was more that this campaign isn't external when I said I could get behind externally pressuring Pelosi. Calling your rep just for the sake of clogging their answering machine is a funny way to piss them off but if they're a Dem and you're a Marxist you can't gain leverage by threatening not to vote for them unless they do XYZ because you weren't gonna vote for them as a matter of principle.
The country just voted into the presidency the one democratic candidate who was against m4a. Reps have zero reason to pay attention to any amount of calls
Dem primary voters' policy preferences consistently clash with who they vote for because they're gullible enough to believe candidates when they tell bald-faced lies about how progressive their policies are. During the primary, most candidates didn't outright oppose M4A but attempted to water it down with phrases like "public option" or "Medicare for those who want it" to signal that they had the same goals as Sanders when they clearly didn't.
no, that's mobilization. organizing results in an actual structure after the immediate fight. moreover, it's strategically bad. the democratic party has absolutely no reason to vote for this, no matter who calls their phones. they don't answer to their constituents. they answer to capital. this whole strategy is magical thinking.
they sound like rich fucks who have healthcare
this won't get you healthcare...
not "pragmatic" and incremental enough for you, lib?
neither will doing nothing
Engaging in bourgeois democracy is not pragmatic, yes you are correct
It's not that avoiding elections altogether is necessarily the correct approach, but this is just one more example of AOC and her co-thinkers doing electoral politics wrong. We desperately need more independent socialist candidates with a sober, correct understanding of the fact that if they win seats they're fighting on the enemy's turf and shouldn't join any coalitions with libs or liquidate themselves under a liberal or popular-frontist banner. By operating within the same party, AOC and friends have repeatedly had to bend the knee to Pelosi and the neoliberal clique.
Who the fuck is we? We're not anybody. We are an undifferentiated mass of political consumers. We have no shape or political will and no ability to express that will even if it did exist. This chart might as well be a ranking list for people's fantasy football leagues, it doesn't mean anything for you and me and we have no way to impact it.
By "we", I mean the US working class, and the fledgling socialist movements and organizations that can grow and eventually be in a position to lead working-class struggle without sabotage or intervention from Democrats or other NGO/petty-bourgie/class-collaborationist element. The potential to building an independent workers' party, capable of running independent socialist candidates who fight exclusively for the working class and cannot be bought out by capitalists, exists. Everyone on this website reading this can and should be seeking ways to organize independent working-class coalitions, and to operate only on a united-front basis with misled succdem and entryist groups (e.g. Sunrise, DSA) rather than a popular-frontist one, including in our own communities.
Not only should we disregard whatever the hell AOC and other entryists are doing, but we also crucially stop acting like passive consumers of politics and actually learn to participate in politics and build a power base for the working class, starting from the local scale and working up from there. Even if you're stuck at home and mostly socially atomized, you can still spread Marxist agitprop through social media to plant seeds in the minds of liberal workers who might radicalize a few years from now. If you're in an org, make sure that org can publish editorials on a consistent basis. A century ago it was standard for Marxist groups to publish their own newspapers and pamphlets, and some still literally do this in addition to maintaining their own websites with archives of their public material. Putting up leaflets is also a good tactic for raising a Marxist banner, making passersby aware that your org exists in their community. Joining an org while also belonging to a trade union allows you to "sink roots" into the working class, linking up union rank-and-file with a potentially revolutionary movement and potential revolutionary party. Once we're organized enough at the local level and have community support from local workers, we can start running independent working-class candidates, using a strategy similar to that of Kshama Sawant in Seattle (minus the counterproductive cheerleading for Dem entryism, of course).
This is good. Everything else is bad. I have spoken
The point of my lengthy response was to point towards actions and a path socialists can take right now to start working on solving this problem. You said we're currently too disorganized to make a difference, which is correct. The solution is to start organizing and attracting workers towards a Marxist banner in a disciplined and principled fashion, including taking the steps I outlined, so that at a later time we will have the power to make a difference. Like earlier generations of Marxists we should plant the seeds of trees whose fruit and shade we might not live to enjoy, but which our descendants will.
Yes, you're right
m4a is not incrementalist
Imagining that shouting loud enough or writing enough letters to your congressman will get m4a passed or even voted on is pure liberalism. Organize a collective front and stage strikes/get militant if you want to effect actual political outcomes. Everything else is either jerking off or whining, or god forbid a mix of both
if you believe in direct action organizing I don't see why you would see forcing a vote as somehow a bad thing, you can organize and do electoral pressure to push from all fronts, saying this is a waste of time is just giving yourself an excuse not to do anything and reeks of "I'm smart because I think this is dumb but I'm also not doing anything to help"
This is a waste of time because of the desired outcome. What will a vote accomplish? We'll out the bad actors within the party and then everyone will see them as the cretins they are and lo and behold the Democratic party will swing left overnight? This is conspiracy minded bs that imagines that a great revelation to the public will somehow result in political change rather than a progression of material forces. You're turning material dialectics back on its head towards Hegelian dialectics where the superstructure is the engine of history rather than the base. There is no end goal here, it's just back to trying to distinguish bad and good actors again so we can jerk off about how much we love some and hate the others and then we'll repeat the process in 2-4 years. Join a fucking union or something, jesus
You dumb libs don't think we should keep Pelosi as speaker of the house 😏
Yas kween
it's not a "conspiracy" to think forcing corporate Dems to explain to their voters why they voted against healthcare for all is a good thing and beneficial to the long term goal of passing M4A
Well good luck with it then
right, so you admit you didn't actually have a reason to be against this other than to act like you're somehow superior for calling it pointless
I feel doomer all the time, but I'm actively trying to avoid spreading it because it doesn't help anybody and why should I get in the way of ppl actually trying something
Nah you're still wrong but you seem like you're committed to it so go off queen/king. Me yelling at you on chapo.chat is as pointless a time sink as you yelling at AOC or Jimmy Dore or whoever on twitter. Have fun with it if it gets your rocks off my guy, I just don't see this as genuine praxis that is moving a left wing movement towards a goal line. First and foremost because there is no constituted left wing movement within US politics, just a bunch of disparate opinion havers and the working class masses who must suffer the ill wishes of our rulers
WTF is "genuine praxis", again with the weird purity/superiority helplessness mindset
They just like make up some shit, like with Obama's ostensible public option which he killed at the first available opportunity.
it's an enormous leap to assume people calling this fight a waste of time aren't doing anything.
K, so what are you doing?
helping organize a local green schools campaign and public transit campaign. hbu?
nice, and what does that have to do with healthcare exactly? why do you feel the need to take down a movement you're not a part of? should I come over to where you work and tell everyone "don't bother with this green shit this is a pointless gesture and will never get us Green New Deal/M4A"
no because that would be fucking stupid and irrelevant
why are you mad at people making valid criticisms of this strategy to you on chapo.chat? do you work at chapo.chat? is everyone here your coworker?
lol
wait but are you actually organizing around this? you didn't answer
I didn't ask you what you're organizing around I asked what are you doing to advance M4A which you revealed is nothing
still didn't answer if you're actually doing anything yourself.
looking back at how you're talking about organizing and direct action, i think you might be confused about what those things are and what purposes they serve.
I support forcing the vote, you are the one shitting on it for no reason
You've been given plenty of good reasons why this issue is a non-starter. You also said forcing the vote would be good for organizing. Being a supporter of something is good and all, but it isn't organizing. I'm really curious what it would look like to use this vote as an organizing tool. Likewise, if you don't see how my building local power with my own organizing is good for the broader fight for m4a, then i really suggest you explore more about how organizing works
haha struck a nerve did I? your "green schools" bullshit is pretty pointless tbh, but I'm not going to tear it down as to why since I'm not doing anything to help the environment
get it now?
so you're not actually doing anything for m4a besides complaining on chapo.chat?
the only complainers I see here are the libs who are being mocked for being opposed to this
Your bit is trash
lol you are so angry right now
I mean yeah. Aren’t you?
in general, sure
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;-)
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you're great!
no, it's eating up the spectacle and expecting it to deliver results. organize. forget the fucking democratic party.
Accusations of ultraleftist abstention I get, but how the fuck do you read the decision to stay out of this fight as opportunist? CTH, for example, is clearly taking an """ultraleft""" anti-entryist position here, not an opportunist one. Probably significantly different from whatever V****'s motivations are. Pressuring Pelosi externally to win M4A is something I can get behind, but why tie this campaign to the doomed struggle to control the uncontrollable (from the inside) Democratic Party? Why trust AOC to lead this sort of fight when this is her strategy to win leverage? She's still playing the fucking shell game without understanding that it's a shell game and encouraging the left more broadly to do the same.
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My use of sarcastic scare quotes was to emphasize the false conflation with an actual ultraleft position (complete abstention from elections) and the "ultraleft" position of breaking completely away from entryism into capitalist parties. You're correct that if we're gonna do electoral politics, we should do so putting forth our own program/platform with a list of carefully-formulated demands we want to fight and organize for, and putting forth our own working-class candidates to represent us, ones subject to instant recall by party membership and committed to only taking pay equivalent to that of an average/typical working-class person from the community they represent to ensure they still have skin in the game.
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this isn't even an external pressure campaign... "call your reps" is the fucking opportunist line. AOC, I get. she's hitched her wagon to this eternally-doomed strategy. I'm honestly more skeptical of the rest of the people pushing this. this whole thing seems to me like socdems arguing with each other about the best way to flail ineffectually and there are more opportunists than not involved.
My point was more that this campaign isn't external when I said I could get behind externally pressuring Pelosi. Calling your rep just for the sake of clogging their answering machine is a funny way to piss them off but if they're a Dem and you're a Marxist you can't gain leverage by threatening not to vote for them unless they do XYZ because you weren't gonna vote for them as a matter of principle.
it is organizing to get a M4A vote on the board and having people call their reps/protest for them to vote Yes
The country just voted into the presidency the one democratic candidate who was against m4a. Reps have zero reason to pay attention to any amount of calls
you mean except for their primaries....80% of Dems support M4A
Dem primary voters' policy preferences consistently clash with who they vote for because they're gullible enough to believe candidates when they tell bald-faced lies about how progressive their policies are. During the primary, most candidates didn't outright oppose M4A but attempted to water it down with phrases like "public option" or "Medicare for those who want it" to signal that they had the same goals as Sanders when they clearly didn't.
perhaps we could make it more clear to voters with some kind of idk vote?
joe biden is elected president and you think NOW a candidate's voting record will wake people up?
ew stop
no, that's mobilization. organizing results in an actual structure after the immediate fight. moreover, it's strategically bad. the democratic party has absolutely no reason to vote for this, no matter who calls their phones. they don't answer to their constituents. they answer to capital. this whole strategy is magical thinking.