Fuck it, I want this vote to happen now so I can see what all of the the idiots who support #ForceTheVote say when Nancy Pelosi has the cover to vote for it because it only takes 11 of the 18 Blue Dog Caucus memebers to kill the bill. Look guys, Nancy is a progressive, she voted for the bill but the Joe Liberman Caucus killed it, just like in 2009.
The baseline should be that they don't vote for Pelosi. If their votes have any leverage and a deal can be made, use it for something with actual power behind it like a bill that could actually pass or powerful committee assignments, not a symbolic M4A floor vote that is doomed to fail.
Not to mention that if the last election cycle was any indication, being unequivocally against m4a isn't a deal breaker or even a problem for the majority of the democratic voter base
I can't think of anything more inspiring to the base than two defeats of M4A, once in the primary and again in Congress, in 12 month period. Surely no one will become dejected and check out of politics after that.
At the same time surely never fighting for anything because everything is unpragmatic and electoralism is engineered to make you lose all the time wont ever make people dejected and check out of politics.
My argument isn't "never fight for anything". This is another bad faith argument I have seen from supporters of #ForceTheVote who don't want to acknowledge legitmate criticism of trading what power AOC and company may actually hold for a meaningless vote that everyone has admitted will fail. What I am saying is that getting something like powerful committee positions out of it is actually a good deal, unlike an M4A floor vote, and unless such a deal can be struck, they just shouldn't vote for Nancy Pelosi. You don't trade in your power for an empty gesture. We aren't going to get a M4A by doing a floor vote, we are going to get it by organized action outside of electoral politics that forces the hands of Congress. This campaign isn't going to do that. The left needs to look powerful and get people to believe in it, and losing on M4A again this year isn't going to do that. We need to build the organization, then have the fight, not have the fight then build the organization. We keep jumping to the end, it reminds me of seeing people tweet about an general strike on Twitter. It honestly gives me cargo cult vibes.
You keep posting about this - why do you give a fuck? Even if it's a pointless effort, how is it any sweat off your back? If you're anti-electoralism - that's fine, go do target-practice.
Nancy Pelosi has the cover to vote for it because it only takes 11 of the 18 Blue Dog Caucus memebers to kill the bill
Nobody expects it to go through - we want to see them kill it. We want them to show who they are. "Voted against healthcare in the middle of a pandemic, against what 85% of Democrats want" - content for the ads for leftist primary challenges.
The baseline should be that they don’t vote for Pelosi.
Yeah, you're SOOOO far left, that you're against a leftist action, because you're for an even more impossible action. Makes sense.
Because I can't fucking escape it because you libs won't shut the fuck up about it.
why do you give a fuck? Even if it’s a pointless effort, how is it any sweat off your back? If you’re anti-electoralism - that’s fine, go do target-practice
Because I'm sick of you fucking libs giving up any power we have for ineffective spectacle nonsense and revelling in romantic defeatism like you are goddamn Imperial Japanese military officers.
Nobody expects it to go through - we want to see them kill it. We want them to show who they are.
We know who they are, dumbass. You aren't exposing anyone. The Democrats have a 10 vote margin in the House and there are 18 Blue Dog Democrats, not even counting the New Democratic Caucus. It takes 11 Blue Dogs to kill the bill. All it's going to o do is give cover to Nancy Pelosi and other reps masquerading as "progressives" to say "No, I'm progressive, see, I voted for the bill" in 2022.
Yeah, you’re SOOOO far left, that you’re against a leftist action, because you’re for an even more impossible action. Makes sense.
Thanks for admitting that voting against Pelosi is actually not possible, lib. Glad we have cleared up you don't think that's possible to do.
You're questioning people's motives. Why can't there be sincere disagreement about strategy? You can calmly explain why you disagree without attacking everyone.
I’m sick of you fucking libs giving up any power we have
I think you're the one asking us to give up power. Jimmy's call looked quixotic at first, but there's genuine support for this among the left, including from relatively mainstream figures.
We know who they are
We mostly do - the public doesn't. Also, it's still useful to see who'll be willing to stand in the way when push comes to shove.
The Democrats have a 10 vote margin in the House and there are 18 Blue Dog Democrats, not even counting the New Democratic Caucus. It takes 11 Blue Dogs to kill the bill. All it’s going to o do is give cover to Nancy Pelosi and other reps masquerading as “progressives” to say “No, I’m progressive, see, I voted for the bill” in 2022.
Say they do that. Fine, primary challenges will have to be based on different issues. But that'll put them on the record - it'll shift the Overton Window: "90% of House Democrats support M4A, only a few conservative assholes don't". They'll have a tougher time raising money from anti-M4A donors. They'll be forced to pick a fight with Biden and the Republicans - Pelosi will have to tell MSNBC that Medicare For All is good and the talking points against it are Republican nonsense.
Like I said - if you're sharpening bamboo sticks or organizing workers - good for you, all the power to you. But then leave discussions of electoral strategies to people who give a shit about them. Because you're making the lib arguments in favor of Pelosi.
You’re questioning people’s motives. Why can’t there be sincere disagreement about strategy?
You are out here unironically stanning fucking Jimmy Dore, who is saying anyone who doesn't support this garbage idea of trading any leverage the left may have for a useless symbolic vote is garbage and captured and should be thrown out. Shut the fuck up.
We mostly do - the public doesn’t.
Oh really, the public doesn't know the conservative Democrats are against M4A?
Also, it’s still useful to see who’ll be willing to stand in the way when push comes to shove.
You already admitted this is going to fail, meaning it's not "when push comes to shove".
it’ll shift the Overton Window:
:LIB:
They’ll have a tougher time raising money from anti-M4A donors.
No, they won't. They will just go back to their donors and say "I had to vote for it to protect against a primary from the right, but that bill was never going to pass." Do you honestly think the capitalist class doesn't understand this shit?
They’ll be forced to pick a fight with Biden and the Republicans - Pelosi will have to tell MSNBC that Medicare For All is good and the talking points against it are Republican nonsense.
We already did this exact fucking scenario in 2009! "Oh, we tried to the Public Option, but that fucking bastard Joe Lieberman blocked it. Oh well, we'll get em next time!" How do you people keep falling for the fucking okey doke?
But then leave discussions of electoral strategies to people who give a shit about them
No, because you are a moron and you represent the left.
Because you’re making the lib arguments in favor of Pelosi
Once again proving that you are lib operating in bad faith looking to divide the left. I have said multiple times now that the baseline is to not vote for Pelosi unless there is an actual deal with power to be had for the left behind it, and that an M4A floor vote gives the left nothing in the way of power.
Really, we all know he is bad? Because the OP of this thread says Jimmy Dore is good, and the user I was responding to has responded to me in several other threads over the past week about #ForceTheVote defending how Jimmy Dore is actually good.
yes we do lol, force the vote is good and its not synonymous with dore and pretending it is is dumb lol, dore is right to demand more of the "left democrats" that doesnt mean you can say people are "stanning him" for starting the conversation
Fuck it, I want this vote to happen now so I can see what all of the the idiots who support #ForceTheVote say when Nancy Pelosi has the cover to vote for it because it only takes 11 of the 18 Blue Dog Caucus memebers to kill the bill. Look guys, Nancy is a progressive, she voted for the bill but the Joe Liberman Caucus killed it, just like in 2009.
The baseline should be that they don't vote for Pelosi. If their votes have any leverage and a deal can be made, use it for something with actual power behind it like a bill that could actually pass or powerful committee assignments, not a symbolic M4A floor vote that is doomed to fail.
Not to mention that if the last election cycle was any indication, being unequivocally against m4a isn't a deal breaker or even a problem for the majority of the democratic voter base
I can't think of anything more inspiring to the base than two defeats of M4A, once in the primary and again in Congress, in 12 month period. Surely no one will become dejected and check out of politics after that.
At the same time surely never fighting for anything because everything is unpragmatic and electoralism is engineered to make you lose all the time wont ever make people dejected and check out of politics.
My argument isn't "never fight for anything". This is another bad faith argument I have seen from supporters of #ForceTheVote who don't want to acknowledge legitmate criticism of trading what power AOC and company may actually hold for a meaningless vote that everyone has admitted will fail. What I am saying is that getting something like powerful committee positions out of it is actually a good deal, unlike an M4A floor vote, and unless such a deal can be struck, they just shouldn't vote for Nancy Pelosi. You don't trade in your power for an empty gesture. We aren't going to get a M4A by doing a floor vote, we are going to get it by organized action outside of electoral politics that forces the hands of Congress. This campaign isn't going to do that. The left needs to look powerful and get people to believe in it, and losing on M4A again this year isn't going to do that. We need to build the organization, then have the fight, not have the fight then build the organization. We keep jumping to the end, it reminds me of seeing people tweet about an general strike on Twitter. It honestly gives me cargo cult vibes.
You keep posting about this - why do you give a fuck? Even if it's a pointless effort, how is it any sweat off your back? If you're anti-electoralism - that's fine, go do target-practice.
Nobody expects it to go through - we want to see them kill it. We want them to show who they are. "Voted against healthcare in the middle of a pandemic, against what 85% of Democrats want" - content for the ads for leftist primary challenges.
Yeah, you're SOOOO far left, that you're against a leftist action, because you're for an even more impossible action. Makes sense.
Because I can't fucking escape it because you libs won't shut the fuck up about it.
Because I'm sick of you fucking libs giving up any power we have for ineffective spectacle nonsense and revelling in romantic defeatism like you are goddamn Imperial Japanese military officers.
We know who they are, dumbass. You aren't exposing anyone. The Democrats have a 10 vote margin in the House and there are 18 Blue Dog Democrats, not even counting the New Democratic Caucus. It takes 11 Blue Dogs to kill the bill. All it's going to o do is give cover to Nancy Pelosi and other reps masquerading as "progressives" to say "No, I'm progressive, see, I voted for the bill" in 2022.
Thanks for admitting that voting against Pelosi is actually not possible, lib. Glad we have cleared up you don't think that's possible to do.
You're questioning people's motives. Why can't there be sincere disagreement about strategy? You can calmly explain why you disagree without attacking everyone.
I think you're the one asking us to give up power. Jimmy's call looked quixotic at first, but there's genuine support for this among the left, including from relatively mainstream figures.
We mostly do - the public doesn't. Also, it's still useful to see who'll be willing to stand in the way when push comes to shove.
Say they do that. Fine, primary challenges will have to be based on different issues. But that'll put them on the record - it'll shift the Overton Window: "90% of House Democrats support M4A, only a few conservative assholes don't". They'll have a tougher time raising money from anti-M4A donors. They'll be forced to pick a fight with Biden and the Republicans - Pelosi will have to tell MSNBC that Medicare For All is good and the talking points against it are Republican nonsense.
Like I said - if you're sharpening bamboo sticks or organizing workers - good for you, all the power to you. But then leave discussions of electoral strategies to people who give a shit about them. Because you're making the lib arguments in favor of Pelosi.
You are out here unironically stanning fucking Jimmy Dore, who is saying anyone who doesn't support this garbage idea of trading any leverage the left may have for a useless symbolic vote is garbage and captured and should be thrown out. Shut the fuck up.
Oh really, the public doesn't know the conservative Democrats are against M4A?
You already admitted this is going to fail, meaning it's not "when push comes to shove".
:LIB:
No, they won't. They will just go back to their donors and say "I had to vote for it to protect against a primary from the right, but that bill was never going to pass." Do you honestly think the capitalist class doesn't understand this shit?
We already did this exact fucking scenario in 2009! "Oh, we tried to the Public Option, but that fucking bastard Joe Lieberman blocked it. Oh well, we'll get em next time!" How do you people keep falling for the fucking okey doke?
No, because you are a moron and you represent the left.
Once again proving that you are lib operating in bad faith looking to divide the left. I have said multiple times now that the baseline is to not vote for Pelosi unless there is an actual deal with power to be had for the left behind it, and that an M4A floor vote gives the left nothing in the way of power.
lol what? this is just bullshit lol
Wrong.
nobody is stanning dore this is bad faith
Wrong.
no its right, and you should be able to make an argument beyond dore bad which is what we all know
Really, we all know he is bad? Because the OP of this thread says Jimmy Dore is good, and the user I was responding to has responded to me in several other threads over the past week about #ForceTheVote defending how Jimmy Dore is actually good.
yes we do lol, force the vote is good and its not synonymous with dore and pretending it is is dumb lol, dore is right to demand more of the "left democrats" that doesnt mean you can say people are "stanning him" for starting the conversation
https://hexbear.net/post/61089/comment/610779
im owned im owned