Arguably, the more things that are called socialism right now, the better. It's the Boy Who Cried Wolf effect. If the word is used for everything left of Reagan it's no longer taboo to anyone persuadable, which makes it easier to talk to those folks about what socialism actually is. We've already seen this work: Republicans called Obama communist and socialist and Marxist and whatever other trigger words they could think of, and by the time Bernie came along "socialist" was no longer a smear capable of putting a fork in him.
Yeah but what does that matter if socialism just means welfare and Medicare in the eyes of the average American. We're not actually moving to the left we're just lying to people and changing the definition to make it less scary to libs, who hate socialism because of its actual substance, not because it's a bad word.
If we got a working welfare state and Medicare for All that absolutely would move us to the left. First, it would dramatically improve the material conditions of hundreds of millions of people, which is a pretty fundamental goal of socialism. Second, it would lift the boot a little bit off workers' necks -- it's a lot easier to challenge management when you know it won't cost you your healthcare, and when there's a safety net if you wind up losing your job. Third, it would be concrete proof that we can do big things for people and not destroy the country, and it would similarly be proof that the folks on the left might be worth listening to.
I see your logic and I agree that moving to social democracy would be a huge improvement but we already experienced this during the Great Depression and it only lasted long enough to cripple the nascent socialist movement in America and then started to get stripped away once we were no longer a serious threat to capital. And because of the trajectory we are on with the climate and capitalism in general just decaying to shit, we're going to get punished for that because we've tied ourselves to the withering welfare capitalist system and the only alternative that Americans would be interested in at that point is fascism because there's no independent socialist movement that made itself distinguished from the liberals that have ruined everyone's lives.
it only lasted long enough to cripple the nascent socialist movement in America
The socialist movement was crippled during the first Red Scare, long before the Depression even hit. Eugene Debs' last presidential run was in 1920, and it came from a prison cell. CPUSA's membership peaked after the New Deal.
Foregoing policies that help people right now is just accelerationism, and about the only strategy riskier than that is doing nothing at all. You can't build a movement by offering people nothing, or at least nothing until things get significantly worse.
Those countries are substantially farther left than the U.S., and have substantially more labor power, which may be a path further left. Universal healthcare is not a one-way ticket to socialism, but countries that have it are already farther left than the U.S., and are much better situated to take the next big step.
don’t believe that social democracy is a stepping stone to actual socialism because thats been debunked by history
Considering that arguably no one has yet achieved socialism (especially not in the imperial core), and that history can't be read like a book of prophecies, nothing's been debunked. We don't have any idea what the path to American socialism will look like, but I'm betting something that greatly enhances worker power would be helpful.
they don’t have the leftist presence one would expect if social democracy increased avenues for leftist political participation
But they are substantially further left than us. We can't say that Bernie would basically be a conservative in most countries and then turn around and say those countries are basically as capitalist as we are.
without other pressures, you’re just solidifying the labor aristocracy
There definitely need to be other pressures, and a leftist movement that grows by delivering material improvements can provide those pressures. Even with the baby leftists we have now, they're talking about a lot more than just healthcare and welfare.
they just have a measure of economic safety for their citizens
That's an enormous "just." "Just" giving people healthcare instead of letting them go bankrupt when they have appendicitis is a huge material improvement, and by itself makes those countries significantly further left than we are. Then look at labor protections, unionization, criminal justice, how far left you can be and have any shot at political power, etc. They're not leftist, but they're substantially further left than we are.
Baby leftists in the US are barely calling for m4a and welfare
They commonly talk about the Green New Deal, free college, ending mass incarceration, making it easier to unionize, etc., and Bernie even talked about getting worker representation on corporate boards.
a less heavy boot on your back doesn’t mean anything if there isn’t an org taking advantage of it. If we had one concrete movement/party which was pushing for demands like m4a and worker protections and was able to force concessions from the government
This is exactly the DSA's strategy, and they're not far from realizing at least part of it.
I'm similarly skeptical of its enforcement mechanisms, but I would describe it as cautious optimism and I would say they deserve the benefit of the doubt. There was that Chicago City Council vote a month or two ago, for instance, where they immediately started disciplinary procedures when a representative broke ranks on a vote.
I’m never going to say we ought to neglect one area of political engagement entirely, so pretty much anyone trying has a baseline benefit of the doubt.
:10000-com:
In addition, members must attend CPC meetings
God I wish this was the CPC I'm thinking of. But that's a nice start.
They are parts of the problem, Republicans aren't the only ones calling everything socialism
Arguably, the more things that are called socialism right now, the better. It's the Boy Who Cried Wolf effect. If the word is used for everything left of Reagan it's no longer taboo to anyone persuadable, which makes it easier to talk to those folks about what socialism actually is. We've already seen this work: Republicans called Obama communist and socialist and Marxist and whatever other trigger words they could think of, and by the time Bernie came along "socialist" was no longer a smear capable of putting a fork in him.
Yeah but what does that matter if socialism just means welfare and Medicare in the eyes of the average American. We're not actually moving to the left we're just lying to people and changing the definition to make it less scary to libs, who hate socialism because of its actual substance, not because it's a bad word.
If we got a working welfare state and Medicare for All that absolutely would move us to the left. First, it would dramatically improve the material conditions of hundreds of millions of people, which is a pretty fundamental goal of socialism. Second, it would lift the boot a little bit off workers' necks -- it's a lot easier to challenge management when you know it won't cost you your healthcare, and when there's a safety net if you wind up losing your job. Third, it would be concrete proof that we can do big things for people and not destroy the country, and it would similarly be proof that the folks on the left might be worth listening to.
I see your logic and I agree that moving to social democracy would be a huge improvement but we already experienced this during the Great Depression and it only lasted long enough to cripple the nascent socialist movement in America and then started to get stripped away once we were no longer a serious threat to capital. And because of the trajectory we are on with the climate and capitalism in general just decaying to shit, we're going to get punished for that because we've tied ourselves to the withering welfare capitalist system and the only alternative that Americans would be interested in at that point is fascism because there's no independent socialist movement that made itself distinguished from the liberals that have ruined everyone's lives.
The socialist movement was crippled during the first Red Scare, long before the Depression even hit. Eugene Debs' last presidential run was in 1920, and it came from a prison cell. CPUSA's membership peaked after the New Deal.
Foregoing policies that help people right now is just accelerationism, and about the only strategy riskier than that is doing nothing at all. You can't build a movement by offering people nothing, or at least nothing until things get significantly worse.
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Those countries are substantially farther left than the U.S., and have substantially more labor power, which may be a path further left. Universal healthcare is not a one-way ticket to socialism, but countries that have it are already farther left than the U.S., and are much better situated to take the next big step.
Considering that arguably no one has yet achieved socialism (especially not in the imperial core), and that history can't be read like a book of prophecies, nothing's been debunked. We don't have any idea what the path to American socialism will look like, but I'm betting something that greatly enhances worker power would be helpful.
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But they are substantially further left than us. We can't say that Bernie would basically be a conservative in most countries and then turn around and say those countries are basically as capitalist as we are.
There definitely need to be other pressures, and a leftist movement that grows by delivering material improvements can provide those pressures. Even with the baby leftists we have now, they're talking about a lot more than just healthcare and welfare.
deleted by creator
That's an enormous "just." "Just" giving people healthcare instead of letting them go bankrupt when they have appendicitis is a huge material improvement, and by itself makes those countries significantly further left than we are. Then look at labor protections, unionization, criminal justice, how far left you can be and have any shot at political power, etc. They're not leftist, but they're substantially further left than we are.
They commonly talk about the Green New Deal, free college, ending mass incarceration, making it easier to unionize, etc., and Bernie even talked about getting worker representation on corporate boards.
This is exactly the DSA's strategy, and they're not far from realizing at least part of it.
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I'm similarly skeptical of its enforcement mechanisms, but I would describe it as cautious optimism and I would say they deserve the benefit of the doubt. There was that Chicago City Council vote a month or two ago, for instance, where they immediately started disciplinary procedures when a representative broke ranks on a vote.
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:10000-com:
God I wish this was the CPC I'm thinking of. But that's a nice start.