You’re operating under the false assumption that Social-Democrats are in any way shape or form allies of socialism
They self-identify as democratic socialists, not social democrats, a distinction Bernie made a point to draw. Coupled with credible opposition to capitalism, and with the necessity of not writing off everyone but my five True Leftist friends, they're certainly worth counting as allies, at least for the moment.
“moving left” is infantile
Moving people left is literally the only way we're going to get enough leftists to do anything. The vast majority of people aren't going to wake up one day and decide to be a communist. The vast majority of Americans -- steeped from birth in hardcore anticommunism -- won't even decide to be a communist as soon as they read communist literature. the vast majority of Americans won't even consider reading communist literature to begin with. We have to walk people down the path. That means getting them to take one step left, then another, then another. Each step helps.
AOC capitulates on imperialism
AOC has had zero meaningful interaction with U.S. imperialism, and has had exactly zero real opportunity to stop any part of it. She's a first-term representative who doesn't even sit on any foreign policy committees. Criticizing her over something she's had no power to change is needlessly pessimistic, and is not the way we should be treating the very few people who are moving in the right direction.
Exactly, they are entirely unaware of the contradictions within Social Democracy, do not see why it's insufficient, and are not prepared to make any sacrifices to bring about Socialism, as they think you can do it via ballot. What now?
So we're assuming M4A has been passed in this scenario? Then the working class is significantly more powerful as workers are no longer chained to their employer's health plans, we've increased the baseline level of care we think all people are deserving of, there's an enormous skin on the wall for whatever leftist movement pushed M4A through, and people have more faith in their ability to change their government for the better (because they just did).
It's far easier to challenge American imperialism in this situation than in the current one, and that's assuming the American left (which already is shot full of anti-imperialist sentiment, concern for immigrants, and opposition to the U.S. war machine) just flat-out ignored foreign policy for a decade.
No, I said that half the country thinks Socialism is Social Democracy and it's good. You somehow believe that what half the country wants has literally anything to do with what legislation is passed.
Look, I can't turn your chicken shit hypothetical into a chicken salad hypothetical. You started with an unrealistic scenario, then implied people would be thinking deeply about Social Democracy despite not having even one basic part of it (again, unrealistic), then went and congratulated yourself when I tried to make some sense of your jibberish.
My point is that misleading people about what Socialism is is not going to lead them or us to Socialism, it will teach people that they can vote for Democrats to do it and that it will not involve any sacrifice or hard decisions. We all get free healthcare, don't ask how.
Extrapolating "I want people to think of countries they like when they hear socialism" to this is a stretch at best. It's assuming the worst intentions and worst possible outcomes. That's needlessly pessimistic -- we're getting nowhere if that's how we criticize people who actually go out and try to move us left.
It's a pattern. Obama endorsing her, meeting with those Bolivian coup supporters, deferring to party leadership on Venezuela, sanctioning China. At worst she's an active anti-Communist and at best she's a Social Democrat who is learning to operate Democratic Party machinery and being changed by it.
Again, this is reading the worst possible intentions into small (and mostly symbolic, if meaningful at all) actions, and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. We will fail if we treat each other like this.
They self-identify as democratic socialists, not social democrats, a distinction Bernie made a point to draw. Coupled with credible opposition to capitalism, and with the necessity of not writing off everyone but my five True Leftist friends, they're certainly worth counting as allies, at least for the moment.
Moving people left is literally the only way we're going to get enough leftists to do anything. The vast majority of people aren't going to wake up one day and decide to be a communist. The vast majority of Americans -- steeped from birth in hardcore anticommunism -- won't even decide to be a communist as soon as they read communist literature. the vast majority of Americans won't even consider reading communist literature to begin with. We have to walk people down the path. That means getting them to take one step left, then another, then another. Each step helps.
AOC has had zero meaningful interaction with U.S. imperialism, and has had exactly zero real opportunity to stop any part of it. She's a first-term representative who doesn't even sit on any foreign policy committees. Criticizing her over something she's had no power to change is needlessly pessimistic, and is not the way we should be treating the very few people who are moving in the right direction.
If AOC is a Democratic Socialist, why didn't she point to Chile instead of these dogshit imperialist nations?
The year is 2030. Half the US believes that Socialism is when you make third world countries pay for your healthcare. What now?
That's not a realistic scenario. For starters, it would mean acknowledging the realities of how capitalism exploits the third world.
Exactly, they are entirely unaware of the contradictions within Social Democracy, do not see why it's insufficient, and are not prepared to make any sacrifices to bring about Socialism, as they think you can do it via ballot. What now?
So we're assuming M4A has been passed in this scenario? Then the working class is significantly more powerful as workers are no longer chained to their employer's health plans, we've increased the baseline level of care we think all people are deserving of, there's an enormous skin on the wall for whatever leftist movement pushed M4A through, and people have more faith in their ability to change their government for the better (because they just did).
It's far easier to challenge American imperialism in this situation than in the current one, and that's assuming the American left (which already is shot full of anti-imperialist sentiment, concern for immigrants, and opposition to the U.S. war machine) just flat-out ignored foreign policy for a decade.
Hahah yeah man we live in a Democracy where what people want matters. We're definitely gonna get M4A, just keep waiting!
You gave the hypothetical you fucking goof
No, I said that half the country thinks Socialism is Social Democracy and it's good. You somehow believe that what half the country wants has literally anything to do with what legislation is passed.
Look, I can't turn your chicken shit hypothetical into a chicken salad hypothetical. You started with an unrealistic scenario, then implied people would be thinking deeply about Social Democracy despite not having even one basic part of it (again, unrealistic), then went and congratulated yourself when I tried to make some sense of your jibberish.
What the fuck even is your point?
My point is that misleading people about what Socialism is is not going to lead them or us to Socialism, it will teach people that they can vote for Democrats to do it and that it will not involve any sacrifice or hard decisions. We all get free healthcare, don't ask how.
Extrapolating "I want people to think of countries they like when they hear socialism" to this is a stretch at best. It's assuming the worst intentions and worst possible outcomes. That's needlessly pessimistic -- we're getting nowhere if that's how we criticize people who actually go out and try to move us left.
It's a pattern. Obama endorsing her, meeting with those Bolivian coup supporters, deferring to party leadership on Venezuela, sanctioning China. At worst she's an active anti-Communist and at best she's a Social Democrat who is learning to operate Democratic Party machinery and being changed by it.
Again, this is reading the worst possible intentions into small (and mostly symbolic, if meaningful at all) actions, and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. We will fail if we treat each other like this.