It’s funny that people will mock performative woke bullshit and then claim this is a good idea lol. The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit, and their base votes for them anyway. “Exposing them” is an empty gesture. They do that themselves daily, their every action and political manoeuvre shows their true colours.
Biden's nomination wasn't a people's referendum on M4A it was capital defending itself from M4A. And the rest of the primaries weren't even about M4A it was about Trump. Trumps done. That's not on the table anymore. Biden being elected isn't even a referendum on centrism, it's just a rejection of Trump.
Normies aren't us. They don't spend all day listening to podcasters and tweeters shit on Dems. They think the dems are the good guys. Dore's audience reaches people who are not us and that's okay. There are people who think the Dems want to do M4A but Mitch won't let them. If the idea is that those people are lost and we should never waste time convincing them, then fine. But Dore isn't pandering to lanyards and Marin County. Forcing the vote won't turn Matty Yglesias into a Bernie bro but it might reach some frustrated blue collar worker who doesn't even know what PMC is.
The real problem is that Dore doesn't have the aesthetics we like. He's an older white guy with a problematic past. We don't like those. And he does the boomer AM talk radio thing which we also don't like. We don't like Hannity and Limbaugh and Carlson so we feel we don't need/want that kind of thing as an aspect of left discourse. If Dore was about 30 years younger and went on Chapo the tone around this would be very different. We'd still be having the same discussion about effectiveness but people wouldn't be getting hung up on Dore as a character.
People I trust and respect have dedicated some of their time to this cause so I will defer to that and assume it's not totally baseless or just a publicity stunt. I trust people who have been doing this a lot longer than I have or have had more successes than I have to put their energy in a good place.
There's not going to be any one-off event that's going to cause socialism. We're never going to know the correct string of events that will lead to it either. This has potential to win over some people and I think that's worth something. It's not going to bring M4A, which is a half-measure anyways. It's not going to cause all centrist Dems to resign or get them voted out. But it will provide some people who are not online leftists or people familiar with organizing something to cut their teeth on. Not everyone is going to join the DSA or the SRA or IWW or what have you. It doesn't matter how good your sales pitch is. So waiting until the moment where a significant portion of people do is a bad strategy. We can't just go "these people need to join a socialist org if they're really serious." They're not going to. We don't need them to. If this gets some trucker from middle America to listen more to people like Brie Joy, Cornell West, Nina Turner, Sirota, etc then good.
I don't think the problem is that Dore is an old white man. The problem is that he's kinda a misogynist and he doesn't know what he's talking about half the time. That would still be true if he were 20 years younger.
Edit: also, forcing an m4a vote has been given way too much attention for the very minimal gains it offers, which is completely separate from whether Dore is involved or not.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit
Almost no one is paying attention. 40% of the country doesn't even vote. And a lot of Democratic voters don't know that Democrats don't actually support M4A. The people who recognize what you're saying are a tiny percentage of the population way way overrepresented in online political discourse.
Seriously it's a completely performative gesture that will allow cynical actors to pretend like they give shit about M4A while demonizing any Marxist that isn't sufficiently enthusiastic about it. FFS Kamala Harris was a cosponsor of the Senate M4A bill. The idea that a House floor vote will actually move the needle on anything is idealistic claptrap, pushed by media freaks who are gonna be the only ones to actually benefit from the discourse.
that will allow cynical actors to pretend like they give shit about M4A
Exactly, it's a free way to avoid a primary in an environment where it's not going to pass so you can tell the donors you're not serious about it. Public/private positions.
The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
Because the dems chose their nomination based on "getting the orange mussolini" out, they didn't pick their candidate based on the issues. On the issues, they're with the left.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit, and their base votes for them anyway.
Yeah, but not enough people are paying attention. The task of socialists is to organse the working class in to a political actor. If we're in the business of complaining that people aren't paying enough attention, we'll never achieve anything.
On top of that: people don't only need to know that the dems are full of shit, they need to know that the left isn't and is fighting on their behalf. The extreme-right tries to show that every day, it's our duty to not let them win so easily.
The working class won't come to us out of itself, it's trust needs to be earned. We can't be assume everyone is already where we are, we need to build class struggle by keeping on fighting, and growing in the process.
I agree with your take, but it would be good to start making a counter narrative about Democrats. That being said, Dems could just pass the house bill and blame Mitch for blocking it.
They did stuff like that for this primary and all it got was AOC shivved for a committee leadership.
They will always do that to the left. They will never be fair to us, because our ideals are in complete contradiction to everything they stand for. The best way to adapt to such a situation is to accept it, and to lean in to that fight, because our ideals are in the interest of the majority of the population and they already hate our opponents.
I think this just got overly focused on as a flashpoint issue for something that doesn’t really matter.
The next decade, there won't be a better opportunity to pass medicare for all then now: during a pandemic when millions lost their health insurance and the left has the numbers to exert leverage.
That being said, all #forcethevote is about, is about wanting elected officials on the left to use their leverage. If they other concessions, that's also fine, but the campaign identifies correctly that (a) medicare for all should be the main rallying cry for the left in the US and (b) it's almost impossible to create better circumstances to explain the necessity of M4A than the current ones.
There is nothing you can do to reach those people.
That's not true. Marx says the working class needs to move from being a "class in itself", to a "class for itself", which means that there are objective interests of the working class, but only when it is organised as class, that it will be able to reach those objective interests. Our job as socialists is to escalate the class struggle to make sure that happens. We won't reach all people at once, but eventually we'll reach enough people.
Yes yes of course, nothing is a bit of a hyperbole.
But if you think force the vote is going to have more media penetration than the fucking election I have a bridge to sell you.
And there are people who willfully remain ignorant. Ive phonebanked and had people yell at me about the candidate I’m calling for because they’ve never heard of them and haven’t done enough to reach out to them. WTF am I doing?!?!
But if you think force the vote is going to have more media penetration than the fucking election I have a bridge to sell you.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying we can force the politcal terrain to be centered around medicare for all, during a pandemic when millions just lost their health insurance.
And there are people who willfully remain ignorant. Ive phonebanked and had people yell at me about the candidate I’m calling for because they’ve never heard of them and haven’t done enough to reach out to them. WTF am I doing?!?!
I'm sorry you had that experience. We will never be able to reach everyone. But don't allow yourself to become demotivated because people who don't agree with us were impolite to you. We will never convince everyone, but we will convince more people than we currently have.
The task of socialists is to unite those with an advanced class consciousness, isolate those forces that work against the interests of our class, and convince the broad layers in between.
It’s funny that people will mock performative woke bullshit and then claim this is a good idea lol. The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
I keep seeing these takes and they are just revisionism bs that leftist are more more saying.
Iowa was stolen
Iowa gave Pete a 10% bump in NH which led to Sanders barely winning. Stealing a homerun from Sanders
Sanders slaughters neveda.
Biden says don't worry its all about sc
Clyburn comes out endorses biden during a time when a huge swath of the black electorate where waiting to be told who to vote for. The minute he endorsed the polls changed. Sc right before bsuper Tuesday 🤔🤔🤔
People didn't vote for biden cuz they don't believe in M4a. People barely pay attention and are looking to be told who to vote for. They where fed the lie that biden is the safe one and ate it up.
The nomination was stolen and yes Sanders didn't do any thing to stop that steal.
It has nothing to do with m4a.
Like it's been mentioned in other comments people think biden supports, they just got funneled into him by rigged elections and a msm that ignored Sanders.
People barely pay attention and are looking to be told who to vote for. They where fed the lie that biden is the safe one and ate it up.
Fair enough, but why will some obscure vote on the floor of the house change any of that. The same media and Democratic Party operatives that lied to them about Biden will lie to them about this, and life will go on.
I’m not even saying I feel particularly strongly either way, I just think it’s literally pointless.
It's going to be hard to spin why Nancy is no longer the speaker if they removed her cuz she wouldn't hold a vote.
I think they should just remove her in general.
I also honestly think that many politicans have no idea what the pulse is in America. They might start to get an idea when their house are vandalized more or their safety is threatened.
Well if we’re talking about removing Pelosi as speaker, hell yeh. Then we’d be talking about potential material changes for a working class project in America. But this whole “we’ll pretend to not just coronate her so we can have a performative vote that most democrats know they can vote yes even if they really don’t support M4A” thing? Meh
It’s funny that people will mock performative woke bullshit and then claim this is a good idea lol. The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit, and their base votes for them anyway. “Exposing them” is an empty gesture. They do that themselves daily, their every action and political manoeuvre shows their true colours.
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Biden's nomination wasn't a people's referendum on M4A it was capital defending itself from M4A. And the rest of the primaries weren't even about M4A it was about Trump. Trumps done. That's not on the table anymore. Biden being elected isn't even a referendum on centrism, it's just a rejection of Trump.
Normies aren't us. They don't spend all day listening to podcasters and tweeters shit on Dems. They think the dems are the good guys. Dore's audience reaches people who are not us and that's okay. There are people who think the Dems want to do M4A but Mitch won't let them. If the idea is that those people are lost and we should never waste time convincing them, then fine. But Dore isn't pandering to lanyards and Marin County. Forcing the vote won't turn Matty Yglesias into a Bernie bro but it might reach some frustrated blue collar worker who doesn't even know what PMC is.
The real problem is that Dore doesn't have the aesthetics we like. He's an older white guy with a problematic past. We don't like those. And he does the boomer AM talk radio thing which we also don't like. We don't like Hannity and Limbaugh and Carlson so we feel we don't need/want that kind of thing as an aspect of left discourse. If Dore was about 30 years younger and went on Chapo the tone around this would be very different. We'd still be having the same discussion about effectiveness but people wouldn't be getting hung up on Dore as a character.
People I trust and respect have dedicated some of their time to this cause so I will defer to that and assume it's not totally baseless or just a publicity stunt. I trust people who have been doing this a lot longer than I have or have had more successes than I have to put their energy in a good place.
There's not going to be any one-off event that's going to cause socialism. We're never going to know the correct string of events that will lead to it either. This has potential to win over some people and I think that's worth something. It's not going to bring M4A, which is a half-measure anyways. It's not going to cause all centrist Dems to resign or get them voted out. But it will provide some people who are not online leftists or people familiar with organizing something to cut their teeth on. Not everyone is going to join the DSA or the SRA or IWW or what have you. It doesn't matter how good your sales pitch is. So waiting until the moment where a significant portion of people do is a bad strategy. We can't just go "these people need to join a socialist org if they're really serious." They're not going to. We don't need them to. If this gets some trucker from middle America to listen more to people like Brie Joy, Cornell West, Nina Turner, Sirota, etc then good.
I don't think the problem is that Dore is an old white man. The problem is that he's kinda a misogynist and he doesn't know what he's talking about half the time. That would still be true if he were 20 years younger.
Edit: also, forcing an m4a vote has been given way too much attention for the very minimal gains it offers, which is completely separate from whether Dore is involved or not.
Almost no one is paying attention. 40% of the country doesn't even vote. And a lot of Democratic voters don't know that Democrats don't actually support M4A. The people who recognize what you're saying are a tiny percentage of the population way way overrepresented in online political discourse.
Seriously it's a completely performative gesture that will allow cynical actors to pretend like they give shit about M4A while demonizing any Marxist that isn't sufficiently enthusiastic about it. FFS Kamala Harris was a cosponsor of the Senate M4A bill. The idea that a House floor vote will actually move the needle on anything is idealistic claptrap, pushed by media freaks who are gonna be the only ones to actually benefit from the discourse.
Exactly, it's a free way to avoid a primary in an environment where it's not going to pass so you can tell the donors you're not serious about it. Public/private positions.
1000%
Because the dems chose their nomination based on "getting the orange mussolini" out, they didn't pick their candidate based on the issues. On the issues, they're with the left.
Yeah, but not enough people are paying attention. The task of socialists is to organse the working class in to a political actor. If we're in the business of complaining that people aren't paying enough attention, we'll never achieve anything.
On top of that: people don't only need to know that the dems are full of shit, they need to know that the left isn't and is fighting on their behalf. The extreme-right tries to show that every day, it's our duty to not let them win so easily.
The working class won't come to us out of itself, it's trust needs to be earned. We can't be assume everyone is already where we are, we need to build class struggle by keeping on fighting, and growing in the process.
I agree with your take, but it would be good to start making a counter narrative about Democrats. That being said, Dems could just pass the house bill and blame Mitch for blocking it.
If that happens, the democrats win Georgia, and suddenly a democratic senate would be in the position to either approve it, or stand in the way.
If that happens, AOC and the rest should immediatly announce they'll endorse primary challengers against everyone in the senate who votes against it.
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They will always do that to the left. They will never be fair to us, because our ideals are in complete contradiction to everything they stand for. The best way to adapt to such a situation is to accept it, and to lean in to that fight, because our ideals are in the interest of the majority of the population and they already hate our opponents.
The next decade, there won't be a better opportunity to pass medicare for all then now: during a pandemic when millions lost their health insurance and the left has the numbers to exert leverage. That being said, all #forcethevote is about, is about wanting elected officials on the left to use their leverage. If they other concessions, that's also fine, but the campaign identifies correctly that (a) medicare for all should be the main rallying cry for the left in the US and (b) it's almost impossible to create better circumstances to explain the necessity of M4A than the current ones.
deleted by creator
And thank you for engaging in good faith.
deleted by creator
Don’t forget a large segment of Biden voters think he’s for Medicare for all. In the height of the election when he explicitly said otherwise.
There is nothing you can do to reach those people.
That's not true. Marx says the working class needs to move from being a "class in itself", to a "class for itself", which means that there are objective interests of the working class, but only when it is organised as class, that it will be able to reach those objective interests. Our job as socialists is to escalate the class struggle to make sure that happens. We won't reach all people at once, but eventually we'll reach enough people.
Yes yes of course, nothing is a bit of a hyperbole.
But if you think force the vote is going to have more media penetration than the fucking election I have a bridge to sell you.
And there are people who willfully remain ignorant. Ive phonebanked and had people yell at me about the candidate I’m calling for because they’ve never heard of them and haven’t done enough to reach out to them. WTF am I doing?!?!
I'm not saying that. I'm saying we can force the politcal terrain to be centered around medicare for all, during a pandemic when millions just lost their health insurance.
I'm sorry you had that experience. We will never be able to reach everyone. But don't allow yourself to become demotivated because people who don't agree with us were impolite to you. We will never convince everyone, but we will convince more people than we currently have.
The task of socialists is to unite those with an advanced class consciousness, isolate those forces that work against the interests of our class, and convince the broad layers in between.
and then they were confused that he didn't support it.
Maybe constantly letting dems set a narrative isn't helpful.
I keep seeing these takes and they are just revisionism bs that leftist are more more saying.
Iowa was stolen
Iowa gave Pete a 10% bump in NH which led to Sanders barely winning. Stealing a homerun from Sanders
Sanders slaughters neveda.
Biden says don't worry its all about sc
Clyburn comes out endorses biden during a time when a huge swath of the black electorate where waiting to be told who to vote for. The minute he endorsed the polls changed. Sc right before bsuper Tuesday 🤔🤔🤔
People didn't vote for biden cuz they don't believe in M4a. People barely pay attention and are looking to be told who to vote for. They where fed the lie that biden is the safe one and ate it up.
The nomination was stolen and yes Sanders didn't do any thing to stop that steal.
It has nothing to do with m4a.
Like it's been mentioned in other comments people think biden supports, they just got funneled into him by rigged elections and a msm that ignored Sanders.
Fair enough, but why will some obscure vote on the floor of the house change any of that. The same media and Democratic Party operatives that lied to them about Biden will lie to them about this, and life will go on.
I’m not even saying I feel particularly strongly either way, I just think it’s literally pointless.
It's going to be hard to spin why Nancy is no longer the speaker if they removed her cuz she wouldn't hold a vote.
I think they should just remove her in general.
I also honestly think that many politicans have no idea what the pulse is in America. They might start to get an idea when their house are vandalized more or their safety is threatened.
I don't see any reason not to do it.
Well if we’re talking about removing Pelosi as speaker, hell yeh. Then we’d be talking about potential material changes for a working class project in America. But this whole “we’ll pretend to not just coronate her so we can have a performative vote that most democrats know they can vote yes even if they really don’t support M4A” thing? Meh
Yeah I'm a bit meh on it also. But I honestly don't think the tactic is to get a vote. I think it's too attack the democratic party