More like Jimmy BORE
(argue in the comments, but like, the WWE equivalent of arguing)
That's irrelevant. #forcethevote is a good idea. If the squad were to withold their votes for Nancy Pelosi unless she would allow a floor vote on medicare for all, it would be impossible for her to become speaker again unless she concedes. The rules of the house are that you need a majority of the votes to become speaker (not just a plurality), so it's impossible for a republican to become speaker as a result of this strategy (like some dishonest opponents are saying).
If they don't follow this strategy, it shows they're inneffective politicians at best, or people who betrayed the promises they made when they were running for office.
There is no better time for this vote than during a pandemic when millions of people lost their employer-based health insurance. Even if the vote would fail (the chance of which is less likely now than on any other moment when there isn't a pandemic), it would be a mask off-moment for a lot of normie-democrats who're not following politics as intesely as you and I are doing.
I don't care about the personality of Jimmy Dore and neither should you. So what if we don't like his rants? He has a platform and he's using it to agitate for one of the most important issues for the left right now, and that's all we can ask of him.
Edit: please call or e-mail the progressive members of the house and calmly ask them to withold their votes for Pelosi as speaker, unless she comits to a floor vote on medicare for all. Contact info and a scenario can be found here: https://forcethevote.org/
It’s funny that people will mock performative woke bullshit and then claim this is a good idea lol. The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit, and their base votes for them anyway. “Exposing them” is an empty gesture. They do that themselves daily, their every action and political manoeuvre shows their true colours.
Biden's nomination wasn't a people's referendum on M4A it was capital defending itself from M4A. And the rest of the primaries weren't even about M4A it was about Trump. Trumps done. That's not on the table anymore. Biden being elected isn't even a referendum on centrism, it's just a rejection of Trump.
Normies aren't us. They don't spend all day listening to podcasters and tweeters shit on Dems. They think the dems are the good guys. Dore's audience reaches people who are not us and that's okay. There are people who think the Dems want to do M4A but Mitch won't let them. If the idea is that those people are lost and we should never waste time convincing them, then fine. But Dore isn't pandering to lanyards and Marin County. Forcing the vote won't turn Matty Yglesias into a Bernie bro but it might reach some frustrated blue collar worker who doesn't even know what PMC is.
The real problem is that Dore doesn't have the aesthetics we like. He's an older white guy with a problematic past. We don't like those. And he does the boomer AM talk radio thing which we also don't like. We don't like Hannity and Limbaugh and Carlson so we feel we don't need/want that kind of thing as an aspect of left discourse. If Dore was about 30 years younger and went on Chapo the tone around this would be very different. We'd still be having the same discussion about effectiveness but people wouldn't be getting hung up on Dore as a character.
People I trust and respect have dedicated some of their time to this cause so I will defer to that and assume it's not totally baseless or just a publicity stunt. I trust people who have been doing this a lot longer than I have or have had more successes than I have to put their energy in a good place.
There's not going to be any one-off event that's going to cause socialism. We're never going to know the correct string of events that will lead to it either. This has potential to win over some people and I think that's worth something. It's not going to bring M4A, which is a half-measure anyways. It's not going to cause all centrist Dems to resign or get them voted out. But it will provide some people who are not online leftists or people familiar with organizing something to cut their teeth on. Not everyone is going to join the DSA or the SRA or IWW or what have you. It doesn't matter how good your sales pitch is. So waiting until the moment where a significant portion of people do is a bad strategy. We can't just go "these people need to join a socialist org if they're really serious." They're not going to. We don't need them to. If this gets some trucker from middle America to listen more to people like Brie Joy, Cornell West, Nina Turner, Sirota, etc then good.
I don't think the problem is that Dore is an old white man. The problem is that he's kinda a misogynist and he doesn't know what he's talking about half the time. That would still be true if he were 20 years younger.
Edit: also, forcing an m4a vote has been given way too much attention for the very minimal gains it offers, which is completely separate from whether Dore is involved or not.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit
Almost no one is paying attention. 40% of the country doesn't even vote. And a lot of Democratic voters don't know that Democrats don't actually support M4A. The people who recognize what you're saying are a tiny percentage of the population way way overrepresented in online political discourse.
Seriously it's a completely performative gesture that will allow cynical actors to pretend like they give shit about M4A while demonizing any Marxist that isn't sufficiently enthusiastic about it. FFS Kamala Harris was a cosponsor of the Senate M4A bill. The idea that a House floor vote will actually move the needle on anything is idealistic claptrap, pushed by media freaks who are gonna be the only ones to actually benefit from the discourse.
that will allow cynical actors to pretend like they give shit about M4A
Exactly, it's a free way to avoid a primary in an environment where it's not going to pass so you can tell the donors you're not serious about it. Public/private positions.
The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
Because the dems chose their nomination based on "getting the orange mussolini" out, they didn't pick their candidate based on the issues. On the issues, they're with the left.
Anyone who’s paying attention knows all the establishment dems are full of shit, and their base votes for them anyway.
Yeah, but not enough people are paying attention. The task of socialists is to organse the working class in to a political actor. If we're in the business of complaining that people aren't paying enough attention, we'll never achieve anything.
On top of that: people don't only need to know that the dems are full of shit, they need to know that the left isn't and is fighting on their behalf. The extreme-right tries to show that every day, it's our duty to not let them win so easily.
The working class won't come to us out of itself, it's trust needs to be earned. We can't be assume everyone is already where we are, we need to build class struggle by keeping on fighting, and growing in the process.
I agree with your take, but it would be good to start making a counter narrative about Democrats. That being said, Dems could just pass the house bill and blame Mitch for blocking it.
That being said, Dems could just pass the house bill and blame Mitch for blocking it.
If that happens, the democrats win Georgia, and suddenly a democratic senate would be in the position to either approve it, or stand in the way.
If that happens, AOC and the rest should immediatly announce they'll endorse primary challengers against everyone in the senate who votes against it.
They did stuff like that for this primary and all it got was AOC shivved for a committee leadership.
They will always do that to the left. They will never be fair to us, because our ideals are in complete contradiction to everything they stand for. The best way to adapt to such a situation is to accept it, and to lean in to that fight, because our ideals are in the interest of the majority of the population and they already hate our opponents.
I think this just got overly focused on as a flashpoint issue for something that doesn’t really matter.
The next decade, there won't be a better opportunity to pass medicare for all then now: during a pandemic when millions lost their health insurance and the left has the numbers to exert leverage. That being said, all #forcethevote is about, is about wanting elected officials on the left to use their leverage. If they other concessions, that's also fine, but the campaign identifies correctly that (a) medicare for all should be the main rallying cry for the left in the US and (b) it's almost impossible to create better circumstances to explain the necessity of M4A than the current ones.
That’s a pretty compelling argument, thanks for laying it out.
And thank you for engaging in good faith.
Don’t forget a large segment of Biden voters think he’s for Medicare for all. In the height of the election when he explicitly said otherwise.
There is nothing you can do to reach those people.
There is nothing you can do to reach those people.
That's not true. Marx says the working class needs to move from being a "class in itself", to a "class for itself", which means that there are objective interests of the working class, but only when it is organised as class, that it will be able to reach those objective interests. Our job as socialists is to escalate the class struggle to make sure that happens. We won't reach all people at once, but eventually we'll reach enough people.
Yes yes of course, nothing is a bit of a hyperbole.
But if you think force the vote is going to have more media penetration than the fucking election I have a bridge to sell you.
And there are people who willfully remain ignorant. Ive phonebanked and had people yell at me about the candidate I’m calling for because they’ve never heard of them and haven’t done enough to reach out to them. WTF am I doing?!?!
But if you think force the vote is going to have more media penetration than the fucking election I have a bridge to sell you.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying we can force the politcal terrain to be centered around medicare for all, during a pandemic when millions just lost their health insurance.
And there are people who willfully remain ignorant. Ive phonebanked and had people yell at me about the candidate I’m calling for because they’ve never heard of them and haven’t done enough to reach out to them. WTF am I doing?!?!
I'm sorry you had that experience. We will never be able to reach everyone. But don't allow yourself to become demotivated because people who don't agree with us were impolite to you. We will never convince everyone, but we will convince more people than we currently have.
The task of socialists is to unite those with an advanced class consciousness, isolate those forces that work against the interests of our class, and convince the broad layers in between.
It’s funny that people will mock performative woke bullshit and then claim this is a good idea lol. The one dude in the dem primary who definitively said he isn’t for Medicare for all of any kind got the nomination and the dem voters came out and voted for him anyway.
I keep seeing these takes and they are just revisionism bs that leftist are more more saying.
Iowa was stolen
Iowa gave Pete a 10% bump in NH which led to Sanders barely winning. Stealing a homerun from Sanders
Sanders slaughters neveda.
Biden says don't worry its all about sc
Clyburn comes out endorses biden during a time when a huge swath of the black electorate where waiting to be told who to vote for. The minute he endorsed the polls changed. Sc right before bsuper Tuesday 🤔🤔🤔
People didn't vote for biden cuz they don't believe in M4a. People barely pay attention and are looking to be told who to vote for. They where fed the lie that biden is the safe one and ate it up.
The nomination was stolen and yes Sanders didn't do any thing to stop that steal.
It has nothing to do with m4a.
Like it's been mentioned in other comments people think biden supports, they just got funneled into him by rigged elections and a msm that ignored Sanders.
People barely pay attention and are looking to be told who to vote for. They where fed the lie that biden is the safe one and ate it up.
Fair enough, but why will some obscure vote on the floor of the house change any of that. The same media and Democratic Party operatives that lied to them about Biden will lie to them about this, and life will go on.
I’m not even saying I feel particularly strongly either way, I just think it’s literally pointless.
It's going to be hard to spin why Nancy is no longer the speaker if they removed her cuz she wouldn't hold a vote.
I think they should just remove her in general.
I also honestly think that many politicans have no idea what the pulse is in America. They might start to get an idea when their house are vandalized more or their safety is threatened.
I don't see any reason not to do it.
Well if we’re talking about removing Pelosi as speaker, hell yeh. Then we’d be talking about potential material changes for a working class project in America. But this whole “we’ll pretend to not just coronate her so we can have a performative vote that most democrats know they can vote yes even if they really don’t support M4A” thing? Meh
Yeah I'm a bit meh on it also. But I honestly don't think the tactic is to get a vote. I think it's too attack the democratic party
and then they were confused that he didn't support it.
Maybe constantly letting dems set a narrative isn't helpful.
t would be a mask off-moment for a lot of normie-democrats who’re not following politics as intesely as you and I are doing.
Would it be though? In November each member of the House was campaigning, and many were actively against M4A
But because everybody was focussed on the "orange Mussolini in the white house", nobody was really paying attention to those down-ballot races.
On top of that, polls consistently showed that during the presidential primary, democratic voters were most concerned with "electability". Having a floor vote on medicare for all during a pandemic when millions lost their employer-based health insurance will bring the focus back to the issues, and on the issues, the people are with the left.
In a more general way: the political arena during the last couple of months, was centered around the fight between the radical right and the centre. If we force a vote on medicare for all, we make it a fight between the left and the rest. That would be a fight on our terms, which is exactly where you'd want to be in the political arena: you want to set the terms of the debate.
Will it? Who is going to report on it outside of the left media bubble…
It will be reported, because the fact that Pelosi won't cruise to her re-nomination is huge news in itself because the speaker of the house is an important position. And there's also the fact that Pelosi is hated by a large majority of the population, which makes sure that you'll get a lot of outrage clicks if you report on this.
Imagine if Pelosi keeps on refusing to hold the vote, and the house needs let's say 20 rounds of voting, and there's still no new speaker. That's effectively blocking the normal functioning of the governement, and that's extremely newsworthy, and impossible to ignore for outlets.
We all saw how the media covers us durring bernies campaign right?
Yeah, but that's always going to be the case. SO should we stop doing anything? No, offcourse not.
We are in a better position here, because it's about just one issue: medicare for all. You can put Bernie aside as "crazy Bernie" if you manage to not speek about the issues, but if Pelosi would be blocked from cruising to her reëlection as speaker, it's only about one issue, which thus has to be reported and which will remain popular (especially now), despite all the propaganda.
In a more general way: the political arena during the last couple of months, was centered around the fight between the radical right and the centre. If we force a vote on medicare for all, we make it a fight between the left and the rest. That would be a fight on our terms, which is exactly where you’d want to be in the political arena: you want to set the terms of the debate.
How are we sure it's going to end up as a big fight? If the vote actually happens couldn't it just look like the co-sponsor list? The best case I see if it gets more votes than the co-sponsor list but does not pass the House as the Dems have a slim majority. You still don't know if those votes are sincere or those are just votes to avoid a primary challenger when they know M4A isn't actually passing
How are we sure it’s going to end up as a big fight?
Imagine the following situation: when Pelosi caves and allows a vote on M4A, AOC (and the other DSA-elected officials and progressives) immediatly announce they'll endorse a primary challenger against every dem who votes against it. Then, they ask everyone to upload testimonials about why they need M4A, and contact their representatives about their need.
That's just a scenario I came up with, you can imagine other ones. The point is, if they want to let it escalate in to a fight, it can excalate in to a fight. But the starting point is the will to do it.
Still, that's not a guarantee of succes, but you'll never have that. But given the fact that (a) they have leverage because of the way the election of speaker of the house works and (b) the fact that millions of people lost their health insurance during a pandemic, I don't think there will be a more favorable balance of power for the left on the issue of medicare in the coming decade or so.
AOC (and the other DSA-elected officials and progressives) immediatly announce they’ll endorse a primary challenger against every dem who votes against it
This is already kind of the situation we live in. A lot of Democrats faced primary challengers this year, and with the presidential race out of the way I expect a lot more in 2022.
Best case I see for the M4A vote is all the cosponsors plus a few more vote yes. The Dems have a slim House majority, meaning a handful of conservative Democrats can kill the bill. The issue is you don't know who actually supports M4A. Kamala Harris cosponsored M4A, if she was in the House she would vote for it and still change her position when it is time to run for President.
This is already kind of the situation we live in. A lot of Democrats faced primary challengers this year, and with the presidential race out of the way I expect a lot more in 2022.
In a certain way, but I'm saying we should intensify that situation, and put more pressure on the people who oppose us by forcing the vote.
Best case I see for the M4A vote is all the cosponsors plus a few more vote yes.
If progressive leaders in congress would act like I described, much more is possible.
I understand that you don't feel a lot of hope, but the task of socialists is to create that hope, so that other people can look to our movement as their source of hope.
The Dems have 222 seats in the House, you need 218 for a majority. If 5 are not on board it does not pass the House, which is why I'm not optimistic.
5 Dems voted against marajuana decriminalization a while back
If 5 are not on board it does not pass the House, which is why I’m not optimistic.
But that's the point: even if we lose the vote, we win, because then we forced our enemies to vote against healthcare during a deadly pandemic when millions just lost their employer-based insurance.
Sure, I can see that. But those are the ones who are openly saying socialism ks the reason Dems didn't do well in the House elections so they'll gladly against it. There are so many Dems against M4A I'm not sure what is neong revealed. Those are the ones who are anyways going to be primaried
It also means that you can vote yes go avoid a primary. But this bill isn't going to pass so it's risk free yes.
The stimulus check affair revealed a lot more. You can tell peoole had the chance to stand ul to McConnel but folded real quick.
In the Chapo feed Amber had a small thing about a campaign to get unions to support M4A. Now that seems like the best way to get Dems to support M4A, make it a requirement for a union endorsement. That'll create pressure for sure
Sure, I can see that. But those are the ones who are openly saying socialism ks the reason Dems didn’t do well in the House elections so they’ll gladly against it. There are so many Dems against M4A I’m not sure what is neong revealed. Those are the ones who are anyways going to be primaried
The difference is that by putting pressure now (a) you increase the political cost of being against medicare for all and (b) you rile up your base in a similar same way as the radical wing of the republicans did by constantly trying to repeal obamacare: you show your base your fighting ferosiously, and you pull them in that fight with you.
If AOC and the rest of the squad don't engage in this sort of aggressive behaviour towards the rest of the democrats, electability (and other irrelevant characteristics) will still be an important factor in how the next presidential primary and the midterm primaries will be decided. If, on the other hand, the left is constantly seen as fighting on behalve of the people for certain popular social improvements (like M4A), it will be more about the issues, and the left will be fighting the electoral terrain in more favorable conditions.
A third thing I want to say is that by creating the conditions in which people are engaged in some sort of pressure campaign for M4A isn't just good because we like activism, it's also good because people learn trough their material corcumstances and thus trought the class struggle. Actians like these, create a better level of class consciousness.
But this bill isn’t going to pass so it’s risk free yes.
You're alluding to the senate being republican. I get that, but I think it's mistaken to believe that it wouldn't be a win for us if this bill would pass the house. It would create legitimacy for the movement, it would make it look like M4A is very winnable in the short term and it would destroy the "Bernie and the socialists want pie-in-the-sky unicorns" type of argument.
In the Chapo feed Amber had a small thing about a campaign to get unions to support M4A. Now that seems like the best way to get Dems to support M4A, make it a requirement for a union endorsement. That’ll create pressure for sure
Sure, I'm all for that. Create as many pressure as you possibly can. I don't think this is opposed to #forcethevote at all.
You’re alluding to the senate being republican. I get that, but I think it’s mistaken to believe that it wouldn’t be a win for us if this bill would pass the house. It would create legitimacy for the movement, it would make it look like M4A is very winnable in the short term and it would destroy the “Bernie and the socialists want pie-in-the-sky unicorns” type of argument.
If it could pass the House alone that would be a historic victory. With the slim majority the Democrats have, 5 no votes can sink a bill. In the best case scenario I can see M4A gaining support in the House but at least 5 are going to be against it. And each House member knows that their vote isn't going to be the tipping point that brings it to a win since it'll have some against it.
If, on the other hand, the left is constantly seen as fighting on behalve of the people for certain popular social improvements (like M4A), it will be more about the issues, and the left will be fighting the electoral terrain in more favorable condition
I agree with this. Optically it looks good. My concern wasn't that it would look bad but like nothing would really be gained
So, it seems like we're in agreement that #forcethevote is a decent objective?
I think it's something but not a major gain, so I'm disagreeing with those who are absolutely certain this is the main strategy we shlould all focus on and our best bet. I haven't been considering the optics that much compared to like what we gain from the vote.
We're doing populism brother, oh yes, populism is a coming. It's coming to your town. And this summer at Riot in the Streets you better believe right wing populism will be there. Oh yes. The only thing standing in it's way brother, is left wing populism. Don't you forget it brother. And when right wing populism enters the ring, left wing populism needs to be there to jump off the top rope and directly onto their candy asses. But with populism you need to popular brother. And to be popular you need people to get angry. Yes sir. Get mad. You need to reach out and tap into the people's anger brother and nobody can do that like a angry shouting person on the radio. Believe it brother. The right has had their angry shouting people for a long time but this summer at Riot in the Streets you better believe the left will bring their own angry shouting commentators to stoke the fires of the working class. Oh yes brother. The fire rises.
Dore is an asshole but he can be our asshole for the time being. And we can elevate better voices to the front of a movement he can help stoke. Jimmy doesn't have to be face of left populism but he can be the one with a steel chair ready to steeep in and bash reformers over their heeeads. BE THERE THIS SUMMER RIOT IN THE STREETS 2021.
(I don't watch wrasslin but I tried).
He’s dumb. His hatred of the Democratic Party sometimes leads him to stumble ass backwards into the correct take, but he’s dumb.
Being an asshole for the possibility of Medicare4all? I dunno, probably not
And there we have it guys gals and nonbinary pals! @threshold is out of the starting gates, rearing to go he opens with a rejection of the claim! This passionate newcomer to professional internet arguing is full of surprises, just what will he do next!
Yeah I was hoping folks who didn't actually care would come in and argue about it with full absence of knowledge or context for what the situation was
instead people actually put effort into their takes :angery:
And he's taking a huge gamble folks! He has admitted backstage he only knows Jimmy Dore thanks to recent twitter hot takes- and yet can you believe it- he's barreling in regardless!
less sorting people into good and bad categories, more materialism and building a "we" that can make demands
#forcethevote was fucked as soon as it became super online. Also, every video I've seen of Jimmy Dore involves him plugging his show and getting mad that some people won't go on his show. Even if he genuinely believes this, he can't stop grifting.
When I found out he went broke from medical bills back in the day I found myself more forgiving of his antics. I think he's right, but when I tried to watch his show a couple years back I found it putridly unfunny.
Yeah, I remember trying it when I wanted something talk showy but more left than John Oliver.
Good, we need more assholes, we need someone who can speak to the apolitical hot couch guy demographic, and frankly the only reason people here dislike him is because he's a mirror, a reflection of our own insecurities and political hangups
He maintains that vibrant political energy while the rest of us turned nihilist because some socdem lost an election 9 months ago lol
We hate him cuz we ain't him😎
He just yells FUCK YOU to whoever is disagreeing with him on Zoom and that's annoying content
I say it's entertaining, especially when many of the losers he's yelling at deserve it
in the clip I saw it was just some guy talking normally and the conversation was completely unrailed by Jimmy yelling at the guy while Katie Halper tried to get back to whatever they were talking about. Deeply unpleasant audio
I guess Dore's just a dirtbag unconcerned with civility and proper debate etiquette, he's definitely not gonna win over the Ivy Leaguers
I couldn't follow along with whatever they were talking about, the lack of civility was not what bothered me. Maybe watching the entire thing would make sense
that’s annoying content
Honestly agree to disagree. I think it's embarrassing that a lib like Dore is the one putting the other smug libs in their place.
I've never once thought he was correct when he gets so heated because idk what he's even talking about. One someone called something "not great" and Jimmy spent two minutes getting real pissed that guy didn't use stronger words or something. Literally mad that the other person didn't sound angry enough
We need a big tent. But all the content olin the tent must appease me.
He ain't for you bro. Just like Matt is becoming less and less for me.
that's what I said, I personally find that content annoying
He lied about AOC's vote on the CARES act and talked about "destroying" her and took credit for her being a success.
He's a fucking moron and a shitty comedian. Stop stanning him.
https://twitter.com/themattdimitri/status/1339478371214917632
I didn't claim the man was a paragon of all that is good and proper about the left, I said he's a goofy asshole who can successfully speak to a certain demographic, whether I personally stan him or not is immaterial, whether you like it or not he's a pipeline and a successful one at that
And those simps in that twitter thread sure aren't gonna speak to his audience so even with his asshole-ness he's still more useful than them
Unlike Destiny, Dore hates NATO and still has that 2003 era anti-war energy, he's infinitely better than Destiny, which I realize isn't saying much, but at least it's SOMETHING
Exactly. All these other people arguing with you do not understand what you're saying. Jimmy Dore is a fucking lib first and foremost, but at least he has a spine. We all basically trash talk Democrats for being jellyfish, but as soon as this guy gets uppity in a zoom call he's cancelled? Lol it's fucking embarrassing that this dude is the one to upstage the entire western left lmfao
Their kneejerk and over the top stanning of the "sQuAd" they're mad that Dore in his flailing poked their para-social bubble
Everybody complains about how the garbage truck smells bad when it drives by.
Still need that trash taken away though.
